That's not about list price. In fact, that part of the favor is negligible. It's about the implications of the act itself - both political and financial.

Remember the rules of the CC – if you get caught breaking something, you pay for it. And there is no deniability when it comes to orbital weapons.

Sure there is. That's what "accidental discharge" is for.

In fact, if I was a megacorp, I'd have some 'design flaws' snuck into the "public" plans to explain away any accidents.

The actual satellite, though, wouldn't have them.




-k

Not really – accountability includes "accidents" and accidents. It only will make you look unreliable.

I believe the formal name for the seat is "My Daughter's New Boyfriend"

Aaron, hermit: stop it.

That's what shadowrunning is for. Show reports that a team of deniable assets invaded a facility and made a terrorist attack, give the identities of shadowrunners and say they will be brought to justice. I mean, really, you have to make a really nasty thing to be given an Omega Order.

Brazil, they are talking about "accidential" thor shots. Thats not the thing you can do normally with runners. And yes, accidential thor shots can lead to accidential omega orders.

SYL

Indeed. Otherwise, you just will pay.

I've done the Internet equivalent of going to your FLGS and reading through the book before you decide to buy it and take it home.

War! was billed as being a sourcebook aimed at how folks go to war in 207X, what with drones being prevalent, magic and paracritters being a reality, and the Matrix being integral to many battle plans. It was, in theory, to look in on national and corporate military units, mercenary companies, the equipment, tactics and strategies used by those groups, and give us a pretty good short tour of a number of warzones across the world, with a large focus on the Aztlan/Amazonia war. I was all for a slightly-less-art, slightly-more-detail version of Fields of Fire that addressed tactics in addition to kit, and maybe went into the kinds of forces these groups might actually throw at each other before they hit the cost-benefit ratio point.

What I found instead was:
50-odd pages of what reads like the Bogota sourcebook.
A dozen or so pages about mercenaries.
A section called "The War" which starts to get into some interesting discussion about tactics but then suddenly is talking about Bogota culture and demographic interactions again (up to page 95 now).
20 pages on Bogota neighborhoods.
10 pages on Global Hotspots
50-odd pages of game information, ranging from new guns, decks, and vehicles to different rules for suppressive fire, "strategic combat" (kind of a revamp of vehicle combat from the corebook), some background on what running a military campaign might entail along with addressing the archetypical list of shadowrun jobs (and how they make/do not make sense for a military unit to pursue), and some ideas for dealing with PTSD and the like.

I'm not likely to buy this one. Sorry, guys, but I honestly wasn't looking for what you're selling here.

Actually, I hadn't realized how bad of an ongoing design issue this is. I just picked up SR4A to catch up on the new system since I generally run SR3, and I'm seeing the same proofing problems in there, combined with massive re-use of old graphics and a dearth of rules for what was previously basic equipment. With sidebars shilling for the 'advanced' rulebooks.

Huh? You must be having a different book than I have


It's supposed to be a beginners' book, those always have "recommendations" for further purchases...

Yeah, I've got no issues with my copy of SR4A. It's since then that I've started seeing issues.

I've got the PDF, since my local gaming store doesn't carry SR at all anymore, so it could be things that got fixed before it went to print.

Adam did the layout for SR4A, I don't see any obvious issues with it.

Granted, it's been almost two years since I built SR4A, and a lot has happened since then, but I don't remember any equipment/rules being removed, compared to SR4. Some stuff may have been moved out of the core and into advanced books during the SR3 -> SR4 transition, but in SR4 -> SR4A I remember stuff being copied *into* the core rules from an advanced book (such as the rules for making drugs, from Arsenal.)

Yup, some art was re-used. It was an expensive book to make and so we had to dig into the archives to make it possible -- plus, with 20 years of kickass art, why not revisit some of it?

If you don't like SR4A, that's fine. But I think your critiques of it aren't as accurate as you think they are.

Pretty much the only thing I can point out that was dropped in SR4->SR4A were the rules for Piracy.

Got the PDF, too, and I really can't follow your criticism. Sure it has various vague rules, inconsistent use of terms and other stuff which has fueled countless rule debates - in other words, the usual. Even if there were twice as many issues, it wouldn't come close to the sheer sloppyness of recent sourcebooks.

And I believe your were talking about changes from 3rd Edition to 4th, not the original 4th Ed BBB compared to 4A. Well, old rules are not my strong point, but let's just say all my sudden urges of "Must. Convert. This" came from flipping through old "expansion" books.

I get feedback on it. Usually I change it according to the feedback (which is my job: making words that my clients want). I'm not flawless like some other writers, and I love editors and proofreaders. If I find something egregious or just wrong, I'll make an appeal, but I limit myself to one; if I can't convince a developer in one go, I'm either wrong, not convincing, or that's just not what s/he wants.

Sometimes I only get one draft, though. Some companies only want the one. Some individual developers will take my work and change it themselves, rather than marking it up and handing it back.

Hrm. Must have been irritated when I wrote that, I came off as more of an ass than I generally do.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I'm going from SR3 -> SR4A, not SR4 -> SR4A, and in .pdf to boot. So my frustrations may be less of a problem for those already familiar with SR4, or who have a physical copy they can stick a post-it in to refer back to what page something is in easily. The 'proofing issues' I was seeing are literally letter-replacement typos that I'm sure are likely fixed in the hardcopy.

As far as the art goes, I was just rather surprised to see cover art from SR1 era books showing up in the new works. It certainly wasn't meant as a complaint about quality of art, as I rather like seeing things like the Shadowtech cover piece again fifteen years down the road.

Tip: the SR4A .pdf has a contents sidepane thingy that's really handy when looking for stuff.

I'm actually kinda bummed I have the SR4 in deadtree instead of SR4A. SR4A is much prettier.

Well SR4A in particular was printed to celebrate that SR have been in production for 20 years, so the use of the art is as much a tribute to the books that started it all as a cost saving measure.

and SR4A is actually one of the best products Catalyst has put out for SR.

SR4A is one of the best product anyone has ever put out for SR.

I wouldn't go that far, but it's the best for this edition, save the German-only Berlin book.

Not to downplay how great SR4A is but I enjoyed Seattle 2072 more. Mostly from the updates to the old street talk. I still remember reading about possible nagas in the basement in the original and then reading in 2072 that the Nagas were infact there! great stuff granted I did find a typo or two

Well I have boxes full of SR books. I own every book published in English, and multiple copies of some. And I think SR4A is among the best. Top 5 for sure.

But then my tastes might be different than some around here. For example, I think Shadowbeat was terrible.

I really liked London Source book

Shadowbeat was okay, but not the best book ever. My favourites will always be the old city books - London, Seattle, Denver, and the Parnormal Animals of Europe. YMMV.

SR4A is the prettiest rules book to date, though.

I've always wanted to like Shadowbeat. But the facts are that it was just never one I reached for. I can't recall off th top of my head what turned me off, but I just never cared for it. Sprawl Sites, totally different story.

SR4A is honestly the best looking Shadowrun book on any shelf, and for my money the most useful. Other games can only hope to have such a fantastic book as it's core, and only Eclipse Phase can claim to.

-- The mechanical bits for Shadowbeat were pretty bad, but the basic concept of determining Impact of a performance/news piece was pretty damn cool.

I do recall that one. We had a 43 rolled on that table at one point. Or street sam was a ukulele hero in that barren's bar ever after.

There wouldn't be any chance of someone willing to translate that would there

I actually liked Feral Cities a lot. Was it the best book out there? Oh, god no. But it had a lot of info that led to some of the best games I had with my players and their favorite mission by far. That one being where they hooked up with the caravan mentioned in it and had a run that could only be described as a mix of Mad Max and Burn Notice.

Was it just too obvious, obnoxious, or silly being the reason no one has posted the lyrics to a particular song that seems for the most part appropriate? Fine, I'll do it, I like being silly:

EDWIN STARR
"War"


Well, good god y'all, huh, I can't be the only one who thought it, given the title of the thread.

This reminds me of something; I once received a PM from Jason (at the time I was surprised by this because I personally don't value by opinion as I am very much a new comer to SR and wondered why we didn't just have the discussion in the thread we were using at the time), which I feel comfortable sharing part of since this was something stated by Jason openly already. It was easier for me to find a PM than to comb through the many threads to find a similar post that I recall in vague terms, so I hope I am not far off or inconsiderate in sharing this:

Re:Catalyst Game Labs, Mar 30 2010, 05:42 PM


By the points of determination which he set out, IMHO, only goals 1 and 2 have been met, good. As a business (and business practices) they are hanging by a thread, congrats.

Then its on to number 3 and this next part pretty much cuts the thread for me as a customer. I view quality as being parts both objective and subjective, but even by that I think War! is an example of goal 3 not being met and being a particular exclamation point on a pattern that has been forming with more recent releases. I can not honestly recommend from my newbie point of view that it is worth spending currency on.

Not saying those were the only points by which to mark future success/failure on JH's and CGL's endeavours with the Shadowrun fictional setting but quality of a product is a pretty big one for me personally. I don't pay the PC/Xbox 360 game much attention and it didn't get my disposable income either for very similar reasons of objective and subjective evaluations of quality of its product. With the current trend in that evaluation of quality before I incur credit card debt by way of a online purchase to own a copy of some entertainment, if I feel that I can get more quality by just using my own imagination and home brewing (or browsing what is going on with the community project), I have to say that is enough indication that I don't think I will paying much head to these recent or any future Jason and CGL Shadowrun setting creative endeavours.

Sincerely,
Wolvie

I don't think so, as Hardy has a couple other translated products (German extra chapters and gear) lying around he can just publish, and yet doesn't, but there ought to.

That statement makes absolutely no sense from a physical standpoint: you don't need "energy" to slow down something, you take energy away. Also, an infinite force (and power) over and infinitesimaly small amount of time doesn't (necessarily) give you "infinite" energy, it gives you the indeterminate case of a 0 * infinity. In this case, you lift the indetermination by calculating the same "slowdown" phenomenon over a finite time, then take the limit as time goes to 0.
Also, force is a macroscopic -'statistical mechanics', in a way- concept. At the (very) microscopic level, there's interaction, and energy/momentum transfer is done by "chunks". An electron absorbing a 50 keV photon will see its energy increase by 50 keVs without going through intermediary steps. So take the extreme case when you have this sudden change over all the particles composing the bullet, and there, you have your spell !


Also, it's magic. Magic doesn't need "force", "power", or such concepts. It has to break physical laws, because otherwise it just stops existing: a universe where no physical laws are broken is ... well, our universe, no more, no less.

The alternative would be that the spell literally drains the energy out of the moving object. In which case somebody should cast Slow on the world, because a lot of people want to get off

Edit: misunderstood the statement the poster was making.

So your force is opposite to your displacement. Negative work, you take energy out of the system to transfer it to your "stopping spell". Infinite power, Infinite force, Null time, Finite energy (0 * infinite, but with a value we can probably set to be equal to the energy in the bullet - some heat).

That said, I think it's kind of nonsensical to discuss the physics of this spells in that much depth, unless they really break willing suspension of disbelief or are completely incoherent or inconsistent with something that a GM/players could reasonably use, which is not the case here. I'm not saying all the physical consequences of the spell should be ignored (plane drones will still crash), but looking at "how magic achieves this result" is a total waste of time: it's magic, duh !

I agree that the spell is a pile of poo, but just because it break the game. It is clearly overpowered in the current Shadowrun system.

If a player of mine had suggested something like the Slow spell he would have been very disappointed with the decision to make the 4ed rulebooks hard cover.

Quick question, since I don't own War!.

Can the gaiasphere really veto the use of nuclear weapons? Is this established?

Figured that this quote needed to be here too.

It's more of an observation that since the Sixth World started, an awful lot of nukes that were set off or fired did not operate as planned.

Either they exploded weird, or the missiles vanished mid-flight, or other oddness.



-k

Just came up elsewhere . .
Use the Designate Spell to make yourself immune to guided weapons:
Cast it at some rock you don't care about and watch the fireworks!
Guided Weapons are expensive enough when they hit.
If they don't hit, it's literally tons of money being simply burned up . .

I think the fact that it creates a Maxwell's demon is pretty cool. Of course, having the temperature in the area of effect rapidly lowered to below 1 Kelvin might make it kind of unimportant that bullets don't hurt them.

Well, as long as it's just f'ing shadowtalk in the book, I don't have to gouge someone's eyes out with my thumbs. The very moment someone tries to establish *officially* that nuclear reactions don't work in a predictable way, I will lose my shit very publicly. Observing a lot of nuclear stuff has behaved oddly is simply factual; attempting to ascribe it to the laws of the universe working in an arbitrary fashion makes me want to pull out my hair.

But I'm sure you know this, because I *never shut up about it*.

Well, the Nuke in Chicago didn't go off "properly" due to external circumstances as much as anything else... But, well, we can also blame the Bugs for that.

HEY! Another thing that should have been put in War! (And apparently wasn't.), Bug Hunting!

Feral Cities covered Chicago for nearly half a book, but I bet there are special companies in Africa that go around burning out bug hives in sub-Saharan villages..

How about the civil war in northern California that lasted from 61 to 67?
Would have been a pretty good excuse to talk about topics like the integration of wireless technology into battle while giving a bit of historical brush-off a brush-up.

So many conflicts out there to choose from which don't involve magic trees.

Cue the shameless drumming for my project that wants to cover these.

Is it just me or is that project getting more and more a mix between the almanach and war? O.o

One possibility, instead of the whole Gaia idea (note to Final Fantasy Lifestream analogy) is perhaps it's just a natural reaction between whatever energy the astral plane/mana emanates and the energy released through radioactive decay.

Perhaps the avalanche analogy would be a good one. It describes the massive release of energy going to ground, and a Nuclear Explosion uses radioactive fissionable material.

Maybe the astral/mana energy, now that it is in "phase" or "in tune" with the regular and normally definable laws of reality acts in a way similar to the way EM fluctuations interfere with radio signals. Perhaps, in keeping with the avalanche, the astral forms invisible and unpredictable channels in which the energy is diverted or interacts with it on a quantum level that renders it inert or changes the energy in a way as to be unrecognizable freom its original form.

If this were the case, it would be VERY difficult to predict and therefore make RELYING on Nuclear Fission a game of Russian Roulette. Does it still work? Yes, for the most part. Is there a chance for it to go completely spazoid and create a poof of flowers and confetti? Slim, but unpredictably possible.

In the early 20th, we had no idea that EM fields would interfere with radio waves the way they do, in the mid 20th we had no idea about how radiation interacted with the material world in the long run, or what radiation did to the environment in the short term. Perhaps this is just the next level we have to understand on how to interact and another level of complexity to the universe.

In a world where the supernatural is still largely unexplainable, and undefinable (scientifically), the superstitious nature of the human mind could easily attribute it to the "Gaiasphere/Lifestream" being unhappy with the use of Nuclear energy, where it is probably like it has ALWAYS been in (meta)human history...."Wow, I didn't know it would do THAT!"

Just a thought. And to me, easier to swallow. Is it scientific? Quasi-so, about as scientific as being able to hurl a fireball from my fingertips.

Well it's War! Expanded! And yes, it' turning into an Almanach.. but focused on the Merc/Military aspects of each region. More so than the strict.. shadowrunning parts.

Like Megu and Frank's work on South East Asia. They're really focusing on the military aspects of the region.
One could still write a straight up book on "Running in Vietnam" that focused on ESPRIT, and Vietnamese Corporations, gangs, etc.. that looked more like Seattle: 2072, or even like Feral Cities.


But I do agree we seem to be expanding fleshing out huge chunks of the world.

Personally I hope we get to build an Africa setting that's actually intriguing.. and worth playing as more than just, "we had 1 mission there.. bored now."