Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: War, HUH! It's out on pdf
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18
hermit
QUOTE
If you're going to hate the official forums, at least hate them for a reason. Don't make up bans and deletions and talk about them like they're actually happening, huh?

Extrapolating from previous known instances of how Hardy deals with criticism. Shouldn't really surprise you.

QUOTE
As long as criticism stays constructive rather than just blatant trolling, I'm sure anyone with something to say about War! is welcome. Whether it happens here or there, though, trust me, you guys. Writers are aware of what's being said, and there's plenty of active listening going on.

Please take Frank as a benchmark. Is what he wrote trolling or constructive criticism?

Also, does that mean there will be maps? Or errata? What are we to expect there?
Megu
Man, if it's bad as y'all saying maybe it's good they didn't touch Southeast Asia. I'm also disappointed they didn't do something cool and creative with Somalia. If I ever get my Somali homegurl from back in Minneapolis to start gaming with our group, I bet she could come up with something pretty sweet for it.

I'm guessing Nepal is about the new route to Tibet or something. Kind of interested in a Poland update; have a friend who was talking about doing a game set there. So that could still be useful enough to warrant a purchase. I'm assuming Albuquerque has something to do with a potential broadening of the AvA conflict, and that's gotten at least some coverage before. I kind of want to laud them for at least trying to get new areas in.

And as far as this trolling versus criticism thing goes, I don't even know anymore. I mean, the gaming board on 4chan is less angry and inflammatory than this most of the time. So either this is a really bad book or Dumpshock seriously needs to chill. My instincts say both.
sabs
Frank was funny, but it was clear he's plenty biased. That being said, it was clear he was trying to mitigate that bias as much as possible. Which makes how bad his review is.. all that more sad AND funny.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 17 2010, 06:56 PM) *
Just to poke my head in again, it's worth pointing out, I think, that there is a War! thread over on the official SR4 forums, and at least one person (likely a person from, or at least familiar with, this thread, given some of their complaints) is being plenty critical. No one's getting banned, nothing's getting deleted, etc, etc.

If you're going to hate the official forums, at least hate them for a reason. Don't make up bans and deletions and talk about them like they're actually happening, huh?

As long as criticism stays constructive rather than just blatant trolling, I'm sure anyone with something to say about War! is welcome. Whether it happens here or there, though, trust me, you guys. Writers are aware of what's being said, and there's plenty of active listening going on.


Actually, there are two threads, and I have parroted my concerns re: editing in one of them. nyahnyah.gif

I also stated concerns about losing the actual war in the information for Bogota. Learning about where the hot parties are is great, but there are cruise missles and lighting bolts flying overhead why the hell are you still there
Critias
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 17 2010, 02:03 PM) *
Extrapolating from previous known instances of how Hardy deals with criticism. Shouldn't really surprise you.

Please take Frank as a benchmark. Is what he wrote trolling or constructive criticism?

Also, does that mean there will be maps? Or errata? What are we to expect there?

Hermit, I'm just a freelancer, okay? In fact, according to some of you, I'm just a "scab." So don't expect me to make statements and answer questions that only a line developer can. I can't promise a map or errata, all I can do is deliver on a map or errata I get contracted to do.

All I'm trying to do right now is let you know that yes, there is criticism going on over on the official forum and no one's getting banned for it. Yes, some of us are reading this DS thread as well. Yes, some of us are talking to one another about the criticism that's being made. There really isn't anything else I -- a lowly freelancer who didn't even work on War! -- can say.
hermit
QUOTE
I'm guessing Nepal is about the new route to Tibet or something.

No, about natural ressources, because Nepal sits on veins of orichalcum. Huge mountains have lots of space for goods to be farmed!

But see for yourself:

QUOTE ("War @ p. 123")
Nepal’s undermanned, underfunded monarchy has been
portrayed as the David against Saeder-Krupp’s Goliath, but since
the  ght’s not over yet, Goliath still has a chance to win. The
fight is about the resources buried in Nepal’s mountains. there’s
orichalcum in them hills, along with iron, lead, zinc, copper, and
the metal that fuels Nepal’s government—gold.


QUOTE
Hermit, I'm just a freelancer, okay? In fact, according to some of you, I'm just a "scab." So don't expect me to make statements and answer questions that only a line developer can. I can't promise a map or errata, all I can do is deliver on a map or errata I get contracted to do.

All I'm trying to do right now is let you know that yes, there is criticism going on over on the official forum and no one's getting banned for it. Yes, some of us are reading this DS thread as well. Yes, some of us are talking to one another about the criticism that's being made. There really isn't anything else I -- a lowly freelancer who didn't even work on War! -- can say.

Okay. I was really only looking for a guideline, though.

As for the map and stuff, I assume you talk about what you will do in reaction? It would be sensible to, at least. If whatever is bing talked about is not beyond a vague idea yet, or you are not allowed to say in public because Jason wants it to be a surprise or whatever, then just say so, okay? I can see you're probably not allowed to tell everything you might know.

Will see to the map on the weekend, if I find the time.
Megu
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 17 2010, 02:21 PM) *
Hermit, I'm just a freelancer, okay? In fact, according to some of you, I'm just a "scab."


I feel like I should say something about this. As a union man that's not a slur I use lightly. He's not strikebreaking for anybody. He's not breaking the lines for his own benefit. The older writers aren't on strike, they just ragequit (and I don't blame them for doing so). So he's not doing harm by going to work, least not the kind of harm that warrants that epithet.
Doc Chase
*blink*

Natural orichalcum hasn't been in the earth since '63. It was specifically linked to Halley's Comet.

Wat is dis
Megu
Nepal? Monarchy? Do they know the monarchy collapsed a year or two back or is this part of the Did Not Do the Research stuff you guys are talking about?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Megu @ Dec 17 2010, 08:28 PM) *
Nepal? Monarchy? Do they know the monarchy collapsed a year or two back or is this part of the Did Not Do the Research stuff you guys are talking about?


Remember that timelines diverge in 1991 (well, before that but we start really looking at it in '91), so the monarchy may have remained.
sabs
Wait
There's Orichalcum in them there hills, but the metal that fuels Nepal's monarcy is GOLD?

wth?

I thought Natural Orichalcum existed?

Course, I'm from the Earthdawn branch, where Orichalcum is made.. from Alchemy and the 5 True Elements.
hermit
Not making any of this up, guys. Depressing as it is.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 17 2010, 06:32 PM) *
Yeah, Frank for the crunch and Bobby for the fluff would be a winning combination with the rest of you folks ^^

more like a whining combination (the amount of potential poo flinging is staggering).
Doc Chase
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 17 2010, 08:31 PM) *
Not making any of this up, guys. Depressing as it is.


I didn't catch it because I glossed the hotspots. Looks like I'm going to have to rectify that.

Critias, if you're still about - how do you think the line developers feel about getting a file of 'suggested edits'?
sabs
About as much as Hillary Clinton wants a dinner invitation from Assange?
hermit
Line developers? Who are the other line devs?
Critias
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 17 2010, 02:32 PM) *
Critias, if you're still about - how do you think the line developers feel about getting a file of 'suggested edits'?

My fall semester's over, so I'm working on a Missions adventure, right now; I'll be in and out of the forum, idly, most of the day, just hopping from browser window to Word window and back and forth. I might take a little while to check in, but I am gonna be reading and posting most of the day, most likely.

As far as a suggested edits thing, I know Jason himself set up a subforum over on the official boards specifically for people to submit suggested errata for existing products. That being the case, I don't think there's some moral opposition to hearing about what people would like to see changed, y'know? As far as how he'd feel about it, I'm sure it would be fine.

The only issue I know of (and again, I'm not 100% because I'm out of the loop with War!) is that I don't know if things can be edited before they hit the printers, because I don't know exactly where in the cycle of publication the book is, exactly.

So I don't want to say "Yeah, sure, let Jason know and all the changes will happen and everyone will get a pony ride and then we'll all go get ice cream later, yay!" because for all I know there's already a warehouse full of War! books somewhere. wink.gif I don't want to get hopes up and then see them dashed just because the editing suggestions came too late, y'know?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 17 2010, 08:39 PM) *
So I don't want to say "Yeah, sure, let Jason know and all the changes will happen and everyone will get a pony ride and then we'll all go get ice cream later, yay!" because for all I know there's already a warehouse full of War! books somewhere. wink.gif I don't want to get hopes up and then see them dashed just because the editing suggestions came too late, y'know?



Too late. You said ice cream.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 17 2010, 08:32 PM) *
more like a whining combination (the amount of potential poo flinging is staggering).

Admit it, it'd be HEAPS of fun to watch ^^
kzt
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 17 2010, 01:27 PM) *
Natural orichalcum hasn't been in the earth since '63. It was specifically linked to Halley's Comet.

To make up another quote from the writer: "Halley's Comet? What?"
hermit
QUOTE
As far as a suggested edits thing, I know Jason himself set up a subforum over on the official boards specifically for people to submit suggested errata for existing products.

Seriously? .... okay. It's not your fault. It would be WRONG to lash out at you now. But I'm undecided if this is insulting, hilarious or a signn that Jason acts totally random.


QUOTE
The only issue I know of (and again, I'm not 100% because I'm out of the loop with War!) is that I don't know if things can be edited before they hit the printers, because I don't know exactly where in the cycle of publication the book is, exactly. (...) for all I know there's already a warehouse full of War! books somewhere. I don't want to get hopes up and then see them dashed just because the editing suggestions came too late, y'know?

Okay. You are not honestly saying we should have put this forward earlier, are you?

If this goes to the printers like it is ... well, another book like this and we're all looking for another hobby. Because then SR will be dead.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 17 2010, 08:47 PM) *
Okay. You are not honestly saying we should have put this forward earlier, are you?

If this goes to the printers like it is, I wouldn't expect it to sell all that well.



I'm of two mindss. One, I would like to see these errors corrected before precious paper is used and precious nuyen spent to acquire it.

On the other hand, I am hoping that the fans posting edits is not the editing structure for the product.
hermit
QUOTE
On the other hand, I am hoping that the fans posting edits is not the editing structure for the product.

Maybe I should register on the official forums and post a link to the MSN help page detailing how to use the word spellchecck function? That might be a lot of help already, getting CGL away from the idea of post-release editing (and then ignoring errata).
Critias
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 17 2010, 02:47 PM) *
Seriously? .... okay. It's not your fault. It would be WRONG to lash out at you now. But I'm undecided if this is insulting, hilarious or a signn that Jason acts totally random.


I don't know which of the above you'll decide it is, but part of it is right here. Make up your own mind, laugh your head off, or submit some errata. I'm just trying to spread the word that the subforum is there, so that (a) people can use it if they want to help compile errata, and (b) to mention it as an example that, from what I can see, constructive criticism is welcome.

QUOTE
Okay. You are not honestly saying we should have put this forward earlier, are you?

Listen, Hermit, I don't know if you've got a beef with me because I'm a "scab," because I'm the face of some evil corporate mastermind you hate, or what, but I'm really feeling like you're -- purposefully or otherwise -- twisting everything I say.

All I was saying is that I don't know, okay? I wasn't in on War! so I don't know if it's too late for proposed edits to change anything or not. I'm being up front about that as I answer someone's question, that's all. I don't know how you could read that as me somehow blaming you guys for not being quick enough on the draw, it's just me being fucking honest and not knowing if the thing's already on its way to print or not.

Doc asked how suggested edits would be taken, and I answered as honestly as I could. Given the developer encouragement for errata, I don't think the suggestions would be taken poorly. Given my lack of knowledge on the publishing timetable, though, I was just being transparent about how I don't know if it's too late for them to do any good.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 17 2010, 02:28 PM) *
Remember that timelines diverge in 1991 (well, before that but we start really looking at it in '91), so the monarchy may have remained.

'86 at the latest, with the non-resignation of Warren Burger.

~J
Doc Chase
I'd say even before that. The chief opinions of justices on the court were of folks that never made it on there after all. nyahnyah.gif
hermit
QUOTE
Listen, Hermit, I don't know if you've got a beef with me because I'm a "scab," because I'm the face of some evil corporate mastermind you hate, or what, but I'm really feeling like you're -- purposefully or otherwise -- twisting everything I say.

Okay. I'm sorry. You're the wrong person to adress. I'll bite my fingers.

See, I feel cheated. I bought this book expecting to get something vaguely my money's worth and I get a ... file dump ... that looks like it was written over the course of a couple nights by people Hardy picked up at the bus station and promised beer and nachos for two days' writing (people whith zero idea of SR, poor writing skills as is, and zero priming on their job, and even less direction). Now, it's not your writing, but I feel cheated by this. I want my money back. I won't get it because I downloaded a file. I'm pissed. Can you understand that? Look, it's nothing personal. You're in a tight spot here, I can see that. But please try and understand why peopkle who bought this are very, very unhappy about this situation too.

I took the 'for all I know' as a literal "at least some has already been printed", though. My bad.

QUOTE
I don't know which of the above you'll decide it is, but part of it is right here. Make up your own mind, laugh your head off

I'll decide for 'stunned' for the time being after reading Jason's text.
Critias
I'm just trying to answer what few questions and make what few suggestions I can, because I've got the time to prowl the forum today, that's all. I'm trying to be clear about what I do and don't know, and what I can and can't act on, as a plain old freelancer.

Plus I'm in a Shadowrunny mood, because I'm knee-deep in an adventure write up right now, so it's not terribly jarring to click windows to hop to the Shadowrun forums and/or DS while I'm working.
Doc Chase
Part of me wants to compile everything Abschalten and I have come up with for Caracas, and another part wants to do the writeup I've been kicking around in my head for St. Louis.

One good thing about the Bogota datadump is that it gives me an idea of what to put into them.
Mäx
It's probably because i haven't read much more then the mercs chapter and the game info section, but thus far this seems like a pretty desand book, i especially love some of the new gear like the Battle rifles and the stun laser.
hermit
QUOTE
I thought Natural Orichalcum existed?

Course, I'm from the Earthdawn branch, where Orichalcum is made.. from Alchemy and the 5 True Elements.

There is no natural orichalcum. There only is Orichalcum that was hidden long long ago. The Countess of Snowdonia makes money off her stash. And the Halley stuff also was probably hidden there once, because the dragon could pinpoint where it appeared so well.

This is ... bad research, something that is all over War like pus is over a festering wound.

QUOTE
It's probably because i haven't read much more then the mercs chapter and the game info section, but thus far this seems like a pretty desand book, i especially love some of the new gear like the Battle rifles and the stun laser.

That are the least bad parts of the book. Still a wealth of issues, but not quite the density as in the other sections.
Doc Chase
Orichalcum is synthesized. It's essentially an alloy containing gold, silver, platnium, and other sundry items.

During YotC, the mana level was at such that it appeared naturally for a time. The potency of natural orichalcum was less than the synthesized, refined stuff but it could still fetch a hefty price. Its natural occurance coincides directly with the mana level in the SR timeline.

If naturally occurring orichalcum is canon, then I wouldn't be surprised if Dunk had memory of the old production hotspots, but the appearance of the actual island was rather masterful.
hermit
QUOTE
Orichalcum is synthesized. It's essentially an alloy containing gold, silver, platnium, and other sundry items.

... like mercury ...

QUOTE
During YotC, the mana level was at such that it appeared naturally for a time. The potency of natural orichalcum was less than the synthesized, refined stuff but it could still fetch a hefty price. Its natural occurance coincides directly with the mana level in the SR timeline.

If naturally occurring orichalcum is canon, then I wouldn't be surprised if Dunk had memory of the old production hotspots, but the appearance of the actual island was rather masterful.

It wasn't natural. It was just hidden there. It disappeared then. There should be no 'natural' orichalcum in Nepal.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 17 2010, 09:22 PM) *
It wasn't natural. It was just hidden there. It disappeared then. There should be no 'natural' orichalcum in Nepal.


On the last part we agree. On the first part, I'm not so sure. nyahnyah.gif
hermit
What do you have on Caracas and St. Louis, adn how do you plan to publish it? I have a Venice lying about here, and my fanslated Paris.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 17 2010, 09:27 PM) *
What do you have on Caracas and St. Louis, adn how do you plan to publish it? I have a Venice lying about here, and my fanslated Paris.


St. Louis doesn't have a writeup yet, I've been surveying the town to see where the split line would be, though the idea of having the 'Brain Trust', a collection of the major colleges in town along the demarcation line is something that makes me giddy.

Caracas has slowly become a collection of zones in a combination of PbP descriptions and PM's here on the 'Shock between Abschalten and I that is distinctly noir.

Publishing hasn't been planned yet either. I have no illusions about making a cent off of it and I don't want to speak for Abs, but I figure we'd just release it for the community to enjoy, pick apart, make suggestions on, and ultimately use in their games.
sabs
In Earthdawn Orichalcum was made from the Combination of True Air, True Water, True Earth, True Fire, and True Wood

The True Elements being literally from the various Elemental planes and where they overlapped with Earth Locations.

The Sea of Fire, for example, was an excellent place to pick up True Fire.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 17 2010, 03:01 PM) *
I'd say even before that. The chief opinions of justices on the court were of folks that never made it on there after all. nyahnyah.gif

Where was this? We know that the first retirement of a justice appointed during Burger's tenure happens in '93, so if there's an opinion from an unknown justice before then that would move the split back significantly.

~J
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 17 2010, 09:36 PM) *
Where was this? We know that the first retirement of a justice appointed during Burger's tenure happens in '93, so if there's an opinion from an unknown justice before then that would move the split back significantly.

~J



I'll get back to you on that. I have to recheck my dates on Seretech and Shiawase.
Megu
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 17 2010, 03:11 PM) *
Part of me wants to compile everything Abschalten and I have come up with for Caracas, and another part wants to do the writeup I've been kicking around in my head for St. Louis.

One good thing about the Bogota datadump is that it gives me an idea of what to put into them.


I still think the more of these fan writeups we can compile (we had a thread going at one point), I mean, we can knit together this setting from the bottom up, from people who know the areas they're dealing with in detail. We all come together and we won't need fluff books. What have we got so far? Minneapolis-St. Paul, Louisville, Tampa, Kirkuk? Am I forgetting some?
sabs
A friend of mine and I are working on a more intelligent Quebec setting.

hermit
QUOTE
St. Louis doesn't have a writeup yet, I've been surveying the town to see where the split line would be, though the idea of having the 'Brain Trust', a collection of the major colleges in town along the demarcation line is something that makes me giddy.

Caracas has slowly become a collection of zones in a combination of PbP descriptions and PM's here on the 'Shock between Abschalten and I that is distinctly noir.

Publishing hasn't been planned yet either. I have no illusions about making a cent off of it and I don't want to speak for Abs, but I figure we'd just release it for the community to enjoy, pick apart, make suggestions on, and ultimately use in their games.

Cool. What about layouting and the likes? Also, I considered updating the Paris setting from 2057 to 2073. A city under siege, a city where everything grand is slowly fading, going for a bit more morbid romantic and an air of revolution. Not done much on that yet though.

Venice is a 2070 setting so far, and one where the nonsensical segways actually are used.

If you don't mind, maybe we could set up a site to show off these files together?
sabs
If You do Paris, I'd love to help.

The whole, "The French are too cool for Augmentations" Thing is just.. weird.
I'd love to give my homeland a better make over than the treatment it's gotten so far.

Also, one thing I've been toying with in Quebec, is the prominence of the Theurgist Tradition.

In Quebec there's something like 100,000 awakaned. 90,000 of which are Catholics. Even if only 10% are Mages, and only 1/2 of those are Theurgists, you're still looking at ~5000 Theurgists. That's quite a big group.

CanRay
5000 Magically Powered French-Catholic Quebecois!

You, Sabs, have just described Canada's greatest fear! (At least, this one's!).
Doc Chase
Layout is not my strong suit. It's a project that would be built from the ground up, but if people are that into it...

...well, we'll see what we can get away with.
hermit
QUOTE
If You do Paris, I'd love to help.

We're on.

Paris so far is an almost literal translation of the old SR France text. I did this both as an excercise in French and because I finally wanted to have a Paris setting. ANY Paris setting would do. But it's actually fairly usable. Needs polishing and could use an overhaul, but it has lots of nice little ideas in it (like the mirroring of the Eiffel Tower by the Renraku arcology replica that's only a couple meters higher - built for an Expo), and an undeniable charm, if a lot of weirdness. Something you can work with. PM me an email addy and I'll send you the file I have. I worked in some stuff from SoE, and used som,e stuff from the culture and intro section of France, but other than that it's a translation, as best as I could.

I could, if you want, also translate you the German 3E theurgist rules from Target:ADL.

QUOTE
Layout is not my strong suit. It's a project that would be built from the ground up, but if people are that into it...

I know someone who likes to do layout. I just need tho get her focused on Shadowrun instead of her Huntik website for some time.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 17 2010, 03:48 PM) *
I'll get back to you on that. I have to recheck my dates on Seretech and Shiawase.

1999 and 2001, respectively.

~J
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 17 2010, 10:03 PM) *
1999 and 2001, respectively.

~J


Hmmkay. It may just well be that my dates are way off, but I also want to use Shiawase as further proof of the split.

I'll get my books out when I get home and do a bit of reading, see where these companies are forming. I think we can use date of creation as the split date for the first one.
hermit
On the topic opf Seretech: Was it ever explained what happened to that company? They were very present in early SR, tehn sort of just ... vanished.
Doc Chase
Not that I recall. They sort of went the way of UCAS Data Systems.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012