I don't think we'd be well-served with rules for when ghosts pop up. Guidelines for what kind of people and what kind of death may lead to a ghost are useful however.
Incidentally, since ghosts don't seem to truly exist canonically (no rules for them in SR4), how can they be canonically restricted to a specific location?
As for the possibilities of undead shadowrunners;
A) Dead people may still have an agenda, such as revenge or protecting a loved one. Johnson can deliver the ghost the resources to further that agenda.
B) People play AI, pixie, naga, dryad, drake and vampire PCs. I think a ghost is actually fairly normal, compared to those.
Full Version: War, HUH! It's out on pdf
QUOTE
A) Dead people may still have an agenda, such as revenge or protecting a loved one. Johnson can deliver the ghost the resources to further that agenda.
Johnson isn't the quartermaster or Santa. Johnson hires people to get shit done he wants done, not because they have an agenda.
QUOTE
B) People play AI, pixie, naga, dryad, drake and vampire PCs. I think a ghost is actually fairly normal, compared to those.
It's not about normal, it's about practical. That's why there are no rules on playing a Meistersinger or a Merrow. Ghosts in Shadowrun are either pathetically weak or tied to a certain place. If you're the Spectre of Long Street 1100, you can NEVER LEAVE THAT PLACE. Ever. What good are you as a runner if the run doesn't take place inside Long Street 1100?
QUOTE
Say hell to Bob.
Though actually that's heresy.
Hermit, sometimes the Johnson is just a middleman.
And how is a ghost anchored to a place different from a Immersed hacker/technomancer, or AI? He can probably still Possess people/creatures/things...
Now imagine a Technomancer ghost, who can possess machines?
And how is a ghost anchored to a place different from a Immersed hacker/technomancer, or AI? He can probably still Possess people/creatures/things...
Now imagine a Technomancer ghost, who can possess machines?
That's not possible, actually: Posession does not allow for control of electronics and Resonance and Magic are mutually exclusive.
eGhosts would be an option, but the rules for PC-AIs are even more retarded than the ones for Free Spirits – and the rules for eGhosts are even worse.
Of course, Inhabitation works just fine… so the posessed commlink from hell is possible.
eGhosts would be an option, but the rules for PC-AIs are even more retarded than the ones for Free Spirits – and the rules for eGhosts are even worse.
Of course, Inhabitation works just fine… so the posessed commlink from hell is possible.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 05:55 PM) 
Johnson isn't the quartermaster or Santa. Johnson hires people to get shit done he wants done, not because they have an agenda.
Under normal circumstances, Johnson pays you to do jobs. Payment a ghost can use for his own agenda. And it isn't written in stone that payment has to be money; Johnson might pay by pulling certain strings for the ghost. It's not very different from living shadowrunners; everyobdy expects Johnson to recompense them in some way for working.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 05:55 PM)
Ghosts in Shadowrun are either pathetically weak or tied to a certain place.
Care to support that with page references?
i guess the hidden life or place of power or whatever that was is meant . .
Place of Power. Admittedly, my knowledge of Ghosts is mostly 3E, I'll check up on them in RW.
But that's no basis for a character, except for one specific scenario.
QUOTE
Under normal circumstances, Johnson pays you to do jobs. Payment a ghost can use for his own agenda. And it isn't written in stone that payment has to be money; Johnson might pay by pulling certain strings for the ghost. It's not very different from living shadowrunners; everyobdy expects Johnson to recompense them in some way for working.
But that's no basis for a character, except for one specific scenario.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 21 2010, 07:41 AM)
Incidentally, since ghosts don't seem to truly exist canonically (no rules for them in SR4), how can they be canonically restricted to a specific location?
Uh, Wut? Check Running Wild pages 178 and 179
QUOTE
Most ghosts are free-roaming and may go bump wherever they want to. Ghost with haunts or chains, however, have additional restrictions and powers that modify their stats.
Beat me, was wondering why no one had mentioned RW yet.
QUOTE (Matsci @ Dec 21 2010, 07:20 PM)
Uh, Wut? Check Running Wild pages 178 and 179
Thanks
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 09:32 AM)
Just use the Free Spirit rules then and call it ghost? Maybe allow whatever powers an apparition has.
Personally, I don't see much on the win side if we introduce rules for becoming a ghost. Either these rules are so restrictive that ghosts don't become any more common than they already are, or we add yet another layer of problems on top of a game that, if played consequently, is closing in on Paranoia in deadliness already.
As for your ghost shadowrunner: Who would hire him? And sicne ghosts in SR are canonically bound to specific areas, or tasks, I imagine this runner to be quite ... limited in what he can do.
Personally, I don't see much on the win side if we introduce rules for becoming a ghost. Either these rules are so restrictive that ghosts don't become any more common than they already are, or we add yet another layer of problems on top of a game that, if played consequently, is closing in on Paranoia in deadliness already.
As for your ghost shadowrunner: Who would hire him? And sicne ghosts in SR are canonically bound to specific areas, or tasks, I imagine this runner to be quite ... limited in what he can do.
This is what I would do. I've actually considered making an onryo (think the ones from The Grudge or Sadako from the Ring) out for revenge against one corp or another for her death and the enjoyment of wreaking violence on the mortal world, using some debugged version of the Free Spirit rules. Sort of a mix of Sadako and the Bride from Kill Bill. And I was under the impression that not all ghosts were bound to places like that? Or perhaps one of the other PCs carries the anchor object.
Not all, no.
And this is fine for a one-shot character, but not for something you want to play for more than one campaign. I'd personally use such a ghost as a Johnson, and gradually drop it on the plaqyers that it'S not quite ... alive.
And this is fine for a one-shot character, but not for something you want to play for more than one campaign. I'd personally use such a ghost as a Johnson, and gradually drop it on the plaqyers that it'S not quite ... alive.
So, I'm hearing a whole bunch of reason to not buy this product on PDF. Am I right?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 21 2010, 06:23 PM)
So, I'm hearing a whole bunch of reason to not buy this product on PDF. Am I right?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
I don't know, how long do you need to bake a crap until it turns into cake?
Well, if you really think the print version will look any better…
QUOTE
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
It should be used to fertilise soild so an actual product can grow out of it's fermented, decayed and processed remains.
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Dec 21 2010, 06:25 PM)
I don't know, how long do you need to bake a crap until it turns into cake?
Pretty much this. Only this particular piece of crap has the capability of vaporizing cities in the wrong hands.
And by that, of course, I mean Neraph's hands. I bet the only reason he's not taking an active part in this conversation is that he's too busy finding ways to put a THOR shot into his Super Warhawk.
~R~
You can always chamber your Warhawk for Moar Powa rounds.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 08:44 AM)
Unlike this shit from War, that would not be tasteless. Maybe the guys running it are the sylvestrines, together with some Rabbis and a bunch of catholic-afflicted carebear people?
I think you're probably wasting your time trying to redeem the idea. It's not very good to begin with - who thought 'what shadowrun really needs is to become D&D with GUNZ'
Really?
OK, from the opinions of people here, I'm going to have to vote with my money not to buy this product until I can see for myself if it's worth it.
Which means I'll have to wait to see if my FLGS even bother getting it in the first place for me to look at.
Which means I'll have to wait to see if my FLGS even bother getting it in the first place for me to look at.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Dec 21 2010, 07:55 PM)
I think you're probably wasting your time trying to redeem the idea. It's not very good to begin with - who thought 'what shadowrun really needs is to become D&D with GUNZ'
Really?
Really?
Partially inspired by the conversation in Pulp Fiction about how everyone is either, deep inside, a Beattles person or an Elvis person, I've long been grouping Shadowrun players one of two ways. For 12 or 15 years now, I've been describing Shadowrun players as folks who either like "Cyberpunk with Elves" or "D&D with guns." Obviously you're a Cyberpunk with Elves type of guy, after my own heart.
There's always been some semi-dungeon crawls in Shadowrun, though. What's the Arcology, if not our version of the Temple of Elemental Evil? What's a bug hunt? A trip into the sewers to fight devil rats and rogue ghouls? How were Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire not very D&D for much of their existence? The game is half-fantasy, after all, and it's not a huge stretch to call every invasion into corp territory something of a dungeon crawl. Break in, get past security (monsters and traps), get the MacGuffin, get out; isn't that basically the arc of almost every dive into a D&D dungeon, too?
I agree that the treatment Auschwitz got wasn't to my liking, but I think claiming that those six paragraphs alone are to blame for Shadowrun "becoming" D&D with guns is as silly and hyperbolic as the folks implying (or outright stating) that the writer of that section is some a Nazi sympathizer. He took a chunk of Europe that was full of angry ghosts in SoE and turned it into a chunk of Europe that's full of angry ghosts in War!, but now PCs maybe kind of have some halfway profitable, Shadowrunnery, reason to go there. Is it a great reason? No, not really. But I'm sure that was his intent, not anything sinister or setting-shattering.
So all of the frothing at the mouth over the presence of ghosts is overkill? Granted, the Auschwitz thing doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea to me...
If you have some free time, read some of franks stuff.
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 21 2010, 08:19 PM)
Partially inspired by the conversation in Pulp Fiction about how everyone is either, deep inside, a Beattles person or an Elvis person, I've long been grouping Shadowrun players one of two ways. For 12 or 15 years now, I've been describing Shadowrun players as folks who either like "Cyberpunk with Elves" or "D&D with guns." Obviously you're a Cyberpunk with Elves type of guy, after my own heart.
There's always been some semi-dungeon crawls in Shadowrun, though. What's the Arcology, if not our version of the Temple of Elemental Evil? What's a bug hunt? A trip into the sewers to fight devil rats and rogue ghouls? How were Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire not very D&D for much of their existence? The game is half-fantasy, after all, and it's not a huge stretch to call every invasion into corp territory something of a dungeon crawl. Break in, get past security (monsters and traps), get the MacGuffin, get out; isn't that basically the arc of almost every dive into a D&D dungeon, too?
I agree that the treatment Auschwitz got wasn't that awesome, but I think claiming that those six paragraphs alone are to blame for Shadowrun "becoming" D&D with guns is as silly and hyperbolic as the folks implying (or outright stating) that the writer of that section is some sort of Nazi sympathizer. He took a chunk of Europe that was full of angry ghosts in SoE and turned it into a chunk of Europe that's full of angry ghosts in War!, but now PCs maybe kind of have some halfway profitable, Shadowrunnery, reason to go there. Is it a great reason? No, not really. But I'm sure that was his intent, not anything sinister or setting-shattering.
There's always been some semi-dungeon crawls in Shadowrun, though. What's the Arcology, if not our version of the Temple of Elemental Evil? What's a bug hunt? A trip into the sewers to fight devil rats and rogue ghouls? How were Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire not very D&D for much of their existence? The game is half-fantasy, after all, and it's not a huge stretch to call every invasion into corp territory something of a dungeon crawl. Break in, get past security (monsters and traps), get the MacGuffin, get out; isn't that basically the arc of almost every dive into a D&D dungeon, too?
I agree that the treatment Auschwitz got wasn't that awesome, but I think claiming that those six paragraphs alone are to blame for Shadowrun "becoming" D&D with guns is as silly and hyperbolic as the folks implying (or outright stating) that the writer of that section is some sort of Nazi sympathizer. He took a chunk of Europe that was full of angry ghosts in SoE and turned it into a chunk of Europe that's full of angry ghosts in War!, but now PCs maybe kind of have some halfway profitable, Shadowrunnery, reason to go there. Is it a great reason? No, not really. But I'm sure that was his intent, not anything sinister or setting-shattering.
I see what you mean about six paragraphs not ruining the whole book. Completely agree. And I'm sort of on board with the two groups theory. I know that I've run into plently of folks that want D&D with guns, and use SR for that. But as those groups get to know the setting and the machanics I've found they move away from that. I've had to completely change my player based pretty much with each edition and I've seen the same maturation process each time. So I don't know if thinking about it as two groups of thought is entirely correct.
Like I talked about on the official forums; it's not about one section, it's about the on going drop in quality in Shadowrun books. I know that if I were writing for Shadowrun I'd be very careful about how my work was treated in editing right now.
I actually don't really have anything against the writer of the Auschwitz section, except I think he might have considered what he was writing. But I do have a problem with CGL actually using it, and printing it as is.
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 21 2010, 08:45 PM)
I actually don't really have anything against the writer of the Auschwitz section, except I think he might have considered what he was writing. But I do have a problem with CGL actually using it, and printing it as is.
David Hill Jr. has made some poor choices in regards his working on Shadowrun, but a lot of what is wrong with his work can be attributed to the development staff at CGL. Of course, some of the blame is on him for his lack of understanding but I'm not going to fault him making an attempt. A job is a job, even with CGL's track record of paying their freelancers. The poor quality of that section and the decreasing quality of the line in general is a direct reflection on Jason Hardy's inability to perform his primary function as line dev. It's too bad that he's effectively above reproach as long as Randall Bill and Loren Coleman are in charge.
And just a note for the theorists out there, I honestly don't believe that has anything to do with their brand of underwear. It doesn't take a church to make someone corrupt or incompetent, people are capable of that all on their own. And sometimes they run role playing game companies.
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 22 2010, 02:19 AM)
I agree that the treatment Auschwitz got wasn't to my liking, but I think claiming that those six paragraphs alone are to blame for Shadowrun "becoming" D&D with guns is as silly and hyperbolic as the folks implying (or outright stating) that the writer of that section is some a Nazi sympathizer. He took a chunk of Europe that was full of angry ghosts in SoE and turned it into a chunk of Europe that's full of angry ghosts in War!, but now PCs maybe kind of have some halfway profitable, Shadowrunnery, reason to go there. Is it a great reason? No, not really. But I'm sure that was his intent, not anything sinister or setting-shattering.
I'd say CanRay was more referring to the new guns'n'toys of the book and not the Auschwitz-themed attempt of an adventure hook.
QUOTE
And just a note for the theorists out there, I honestly don't believe that has anything to do with their brand of underwear. It doesn't take a church to make someone corrupt or incompetent, people are capable of that all on their own. And sometimes they run role playing game companies.
The reasons for corruption vary. Be it that it's about clan, about family, about friendship, about membership in a fraternity, about ethnicity, or about religion. It's not calling out all Mormons to say that SOME of them stick together in a way that you can only call corrupt. It's not particular to Mormons either. But neither are they immune from this on principle. Corruption can crystallise around any kind of tight-knit group. A parish is as likely as anything else.
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 22 2010, 05:30 AM)
I'd say CanRay was more referring to the new guns 'n' toys of the book and not the Auschwitz-themed attempt of an adventure hook.
Yeah, I never expected War! to be much more than development of the storyline further with Aztlan going Warmongering again (Which, apparently, it failed), and being a book full of toys and such that my group will look over, drool, and realize they can never, ever have, while I, as a GM, can. And use to remind them that they're supposed to be Disposable Black Ops Agents for Corporate Espionage, not picking fights with the Big Boys.
*Sighs* I wish I could have gotten in during the old days...
The fun part is: Apart from the Aztlan/Amazonia war, CGL is offering a product that pretty much is what War! wants to be. It's called Fields of Fire and a .pdf release of an old 2E sourcebook. The rules need an upgrade, and the stuff in there generally is a lot less LOLUBER than in War!, but from the fluff and background it really, really delivers.
Of course, buying it would reward CGL indirectly for producing the turd War! is (and proceeding down this way).
I miss them. Back when people like Findley or Sargent were writing for the line. Actual authors. People who had a professional attitude. Unlike the corrupt clique we are cursed with today.
Of course, buying it would reward CGL indirectly for producing the turd War! is (and proceeding down this way).
QUOTE
*Sighs* I wish I could have gotten in during the old days...
I miss them. Back when people like Findley or Sargent were writing for the line. Actual authors. People who had a professional attitude. Unlike the corrupt clique we are cursed with today.
The problem with that premise is that Shadowrunners on a regular basis steal stuff much better guarded than "toys they can never, ever have". If you can carry it in a bag, they will.
So expect rating 10 commlinks soon.
So expect rating 10 commlinks soon.
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 22 2010, 05:37 PM)
The problem with that premise is that Shadowrunners on a regular basis steal stuff much better guarded than "toys they can never, ever have". If you can carry it in a bag, they will.
So expect rating 10 commlinks soon.
So expect rating 10 commlinks soon.
Thankfully they do degrade - but I've never really known the rank and file to have SOTA anything, given the military R&D/purchasing process.
Degrade?
So the SOTA Rules are back?
So the SOTA Rules are back?
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 22 2010, 06:52 PM)
Degrade?
So the SOTA Rules are back?
So the SOTA Rules are back?
From what I recall, yes - milspec stuff over rating 6 degrades down to 6, but I'll doublecheck the numbers before calling it gospel.
I'm pretty ill right now, so it may be delirium talking. Time to go writing!
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 22 2010, 06:53 PM)
From what I recall, yes - milspec stuff over rating 6 degrades down to 6, but I'll doublecheck the numbers before calling it gospel.
I'm pretty ill right now, so it may be delirium talking. Time to go writing!
I'm pretty ill right now, so it may be delirium talking. Time to go writing!
i eagerly await your written stuff . .
delirium and other consciousness changing circumstances make for some good writings ^^
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 22 2010, 06:50 PM)
Thankfully they do degrade
Software only.
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 22 2010, 06:50 PM)
but I've never really known the rank and file to have SOTA anything, given the military R&D/purchasing process.
Device Rating 5 was indeed pretty nice for military vehicles. The new ratings are mostly ridiculous.
Funny thing, though: Unwired lists ICs rated 8 – War! tells you that there is no better rating than 6.
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 22 2010, 06:16 PM)
Software only.
That would explain where I saw it, then. I'll have to really sit down with the book and see a workaround for that.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 22 2010, 12:23 AM)
So, I'm hearing a whole bunch of reason to not buy this product on PDF. Am I right?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?
Correcting the typos and rewording some things would already do a lot, but other issues go deeper. Like the missing structure, or stuff which simply does not belong. When writing a longer text, first thing you usually do is creating the TOC, and at that point somebody should have asked questions like "Bogota Culture? In a warzone?" or "shouldn't those hotspots be actual warzones?"...
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 22 2010, 06:26 PM)
The rules need an upgrade, and the stuff in there generally is a lot less LOLUBER than in War!,
What in WAR is LOLUBER, except for the stuff runners will never have(ie. orbital weapons and their ilk)
I personally found the gear chapter to be really nice, with lots of nice new toys for runners and that's why I'm eagerly awaiting MillSpec Tech.
Apparently the rating 10 programs, which I would agree with.
I still have problems thinking that the military gets bleeding edge stuff when they're still running Windows 98 on their computers in the machine shop.
I still have problems thinking that the military gets bleeding edge stuff when they're still running Windows 98 on their computers in the machine shop.
If anything
The Corps should be running Bleeding Edge stuff.
They are afterall the ones developing and testing the stuff.
The Corps should be running Bleeding Edge stuff.
They are afterall the ones developing and testing the stuff.
QUOTE
What in WAR is LOLUBER, except for the stuff runners will never have(ie. orbital weapons and their ilk)
I personally found the gear chapter to be really nice, with lots of nice new toys for runners and that's why I'm eagerly awaiting MillSpec Tech.
I personally found the gear chapter to be really nice, with lots of nice new toys for runners and that's why I'm eagerly awaiting MillSpec Tech.
Pretty much everything. Armor piercing flechette, battle rifles, and all those uber vehicles ... the rating 10 matrix stuff might be acceptable, but seems not very thought out. The Slow spell ist the dumbest thing to add ever, and mind over matter isn't so much better. Really, haven't you been following this thread?
YMMV. Maybe you want SR mages to be Neo, able to stop any bullet they want. I don't.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 22 2010, 10:22 PM)
Pretty much everything. Armor piercing flechette, battle rifles, and all those uber vehicles ... the rating 10 matrix stuff might be acceptable, but seems not very thought out. The Slow spell ist the dumbest thing to add ever, and mind over matter isn't so much better. Really, haven't you been following this thread?
YMMV. Maybe you want SR mages to be Neo, able to stop any bullet they want. I don't.
YMMV. Maybe you want SR mages to be Neo, able to stop any bullet they want. I don't.
Only think out of those i agree as being OP is the slow spell, witch is just stupid.
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 22 2010, 09:17 PM)
I still have problems thinking that the military gets bleeding edge stuff when they're still running Windows 98 on their computers in the machine shop.
That was an old Shadowrun Meme that died with SR4 – only to rear it's undead horse-head with War.
Hey, the undead Warhorse was my idea <.<
QUOTE
Only think out of those i agree as being OP is the slow spell, witch is just stupid.
Very, yes. It's certainly the worst offender there for me too.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 22 2010, 09:33 PM)
Very, yes. It's certainly the worst offender there for me too.
I dunno, the AP flechettes give me pause. Those are techincally called 'bullets'.
Of course, Slow's impact is pretty limited. (pi)
Take Recharge: A few Capacitor&Spirit Farms later, the world is supplied entirely with clean energy.
Take Recharge: A few Capacitor&Spirit Farms later, the world is supplied entirely with clean energy.
That's STUPID, but it's not that overpowered. It's not like they're always instant kill munitions, just as slow is the total immunity to bullets.
Yes, but that would require something like consequential world building, and CGL seems incapable of that anyway.
QUOTE
Of course, Slow's impact is pretty limited. (pi)
Take Recharge: A few Capacitor&Spirit Farms later, the world is supplied entirely with clean energy.
Take Recharge: A few Capacitor&Spirit Farms later, the world is supplied entirely with clean energy.
Yes, but that would require something like consequential world building, and CGL seems incapable of that anyway.
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 22 2010, 09:17 PM)
Apparently the rating 10 programs, which I would agree with.
IMO a 1-10 scale is significantly better than the old 1-6, it allows both "oh shit" and finer granularities.
Recharge is still limited by OR, a huge capacitor could easily have around 20.
Slow on the other hand...an impenetrable physical barrier (ok, impenetrable until it has soaked 200 kilos of lead per Spellcasting hit) at best, a giant can of worms at worst. Plus I'd really like to know how hitting this spell's AOE in the terminal phase of a high-altitude jump is supposed to be helpful for paratroopers.
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