QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 3 2013, 02:12 PM)

Nobody is saying that the limit should not take these things into account, so I'm not sure what strawman you are trying to attack here...
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 3 2013, 01:22 PM)

Stranger than agility not even being a factor in your ability to infiltrate or palm?
QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 3 2013, 01:29 PM)

As for the whole "Agility doesn't feed into Limit" thing, I could easily see that being a serious issue - if a character concept calls for someone highly dexterous, but at the same time fairly weak, their Limit won't be high enough to suit the concept - being generous, let's give this character Body 2, Strength 2, and Reaction 3; their Physical Limit is 3. Reaction 5 only makes that 4. If that character's supposed to be a talented thief, that's just not going to work due to the Limit.
The problem I'm seeing is that of mutual misunderstanding. This doesn't necessitate the level of flippant rudeness and insults you're bandying about, but I'll try to at least explain the situation as I understand it.
You are correct that Agility isn't a direct factor in your physical limits. I read somewhat more into your post's meaning than was apparantly there, and for that I apologize.
That said, I do still feel I've touched upon something. To use your example, palming and infiltrating are limited by your Strength and Body. I argue this makes perfect sense. If you're agile enough to perform those actions, but not strong or fit enough,
that will limit you.
The opposite is not true, however. Being strong does not preclude you from being coordinated in certain circumstances. You can be a big, clumsy oaf most of the time, with abyssmal agility, but then pull off feats of great finesse -
assuming you have the training for them. You can develop muscle memory for that specific task. For most everything else, you're a walking disaster, but if you've taken the time to develop specific skills, you can focus and get your body to do what you want it to do for that specific task. You are not
limited by your lack of agility.
A clumsy strongman can still hide, but an agile weakling can't lift a great weight, nor get their body to do what they want without strain. And that's the key difference.
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 3 2013, 02:12 PM)

Now if you're done attacking things nobody has ever suggested or wanted, how about addressing the thought that a troll's limit for Infiltration or Palming is going to be on average a full 4 points higher than a human or elf, because strength and body get weighted in so heavily while agi not at all? This isn't game balance, it's ridiculousness.
Yes, a troll will have higher limits. But at the same time, he'll have much lower Agility and Skill, so he won't be able to put those limits to use very often. Now, yes, he can use Edge or gain other situational dice bonuses as I mentioned in my previous post, but why shouldn't he be able to? Just because he's uncoordinated most of the time doesn't mean he can't get lucky or get help from outside factors.
But the same is not true of a weakling with high agility. Their lack of strength or fitness is a direct hindrance to all their physical actions, because it is a
physical limitation, not just a lack of coordination. For example, you can't use Edge to help you lift more than you normally can.
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 3 2013, 02:12 PM)

This would be an issue of body, not strength.
I clearly was refering to both collectively. Please reread my post.
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 3 2013, 02:12 PM)

Unfortunately that's not how limits work, because the limits for shooting a gun are based on the gun, not your stats. In any case there are better ways to represent this that have been discussed elsewhere.
I concede I haven't read the previews yet, so I this is probably just a mistake on my part. I think I was assuming Accuracy
modified your limits. Apologies for my confusion.
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 3 2013, 02:12 PM)

A flying kick would certainly fall under athletics/unarmed combat, both of which I imagine would be primarily strength based.
Arguments could go either way for strength or body, which is part of why I originally spoke including both.
~Umi