So instead of the system being set up to provide the potential for lucky breaks, it makes lucky breaks impossible except when you decide you should get one. That's the problem.

I have to say, just giving a look over and half making a test character(within the limits of what the preview rules allow), I like how the priorities feel.

Attributes actually give you a solid amount of points. A allows a 4 in everything for a human, and A SHOULD allow you a good spread, which is a vast improvement of the A in the RC Priority(4 4's and 3 3's, which is B in this, which I feel is appropriate.)

Skills seem well-I'm curious to know what the second number is(in the old 4.5 priority system, that was how many skill groups you could have.) Nice amount of points for A and B, dwindling down a bit but it does the job. Curious to know how much Specializations cost or if they're going to be done SR3 style(where your Pistols 3 would become Pistols(Semi-Automatics) 2(4).)

I like the race bit where you can pick your priority for them, at the cost of special attribute points. Don't care about them, can take it low and free up room for other stuff. Nice enough deal.

Really like the special attributes. Mystic Adepts seem like they're really cool now and less spread super thin. The Karma bonus is cool, I'm guessing you'll be able to use it for any sort of finishing touches? That would be neat. Like the bonuses as well(free skills that go along is a nice deal.)

REALLY like the list of different power levels in terms of resources and the like. I also like how the differences in power levels are shown with resources and contacts rather than raw attributes and skills. Anyone should be able to get themselves trained physically, mentally, or whatever skill-wise, but it's the resources and the people you know who have a difference with SOME, say, skill bonuses with the extra Karma if you can use it for them. (I'd have MAYBE put Availability at 16 for Prime runners instead of 15 which cuts out some gear I could see primes having, but we never played with the rule anyway so it doesn't affect us, per se.)

Will of course have to see more, but from what I can tell I am digging how the stuff is set up so far in the preview. I admit that the metahuman special attribute bonuses seem to increase kind of strange and I'd maybe adjust that a bit, if I had some criticism about it.

This. Right. Here.

What? The circular arguments ad nauseam?

So you dislike the entire "add your edge dice" mechanic, then.

(Or is choosing to spend edge on a roll somehow different than "you decide when you should get a lucky break"?)

I've consistently disliked Edge for that reason. They're making it even more so.

Nope, I dislike the whole "Limit your hits" mechanic, because I think it is stupid... I thought that was obvious.
I don't generally consider my charcters to be "Lucky," and when a mechanic is forced upon me so that I have to "Be Lucky" then it annoys me, a lot. I would rather that the luck just flow from the dice roll, rather than being forced to spend a resource to make my hits actually mean something.

You misunderstood my post, then. I get your position quite clearly.

"[the system] makes lucky breaks impossible except when you decide you should get one" does not match that position, because Edge--as a mechanic--is inherently contrary to this statement.

We also know that what is usually thought to be the "worst offender" (Agility) is not a factor in limits. What we don't know is what the Karma costs for skills looks like.

And it is very clearly intentional that Attributes be more valuable than skills, so the line of argument would have to be somewhat more in depth than "attributes are worth more than skills" - especially since it's not a zero-sum situation.



As I said, I'll grant that they're undercosted. That is very different from too valuable.

Further, I'll reiterate that what is relevant is the real value of an attribute, not the potential value of Attributes as compared to skills. If anyone's not sure what I mean, let's go through the Agility list.

Archery - Ranged Combat
Automatics - Ranged Combat
Blades - Close Combat
Clubs - Close Combat
Escape Artist
Exotic Melee Weapon - Close Combat
Exotic Ranged Weapon - Ranged Combat
Forgery
Gunnery - Actually used through Matrix actions in nearly all cases, so it doesn't even count.
Gymnastics
Heavy Weapons - Ranged Combat
Infiltration
Locksmith
Longarms - Ranged Combat
Palming
Pistols - Ranged Combat
Throwing Weapons - Ranged Combat
Unarmed Combat - Close Combat

See all of those Ranged Combat skills? They count ONCE, because most characters won't have more than one of them in the first place, and even if they do it's still just one action. So that's 7, but it's not at all likely that a character is going to be making use of all that. The most agility focused character I can think of, the Infil/Sam is gonna be at about 6 (Close Combat, Ranged Combat, Gymnastics, Infiltration, Locksmith, and Palming), while even just a normal Sam might only have 3 or 4 (Close Combat, Ranged Combat, Gymnastics and perhaps Infiltration). A less Agility focused character might be using just Ranged Combat and MAYBE Infiltratoin. So the real value of Agility is about 2-5 Skills. Now because it's not zero sum, and because there needs to be space for the Agility focused character, the high-end value is completely out of the question. 3 times is actually a pretty decent evaluation.

Yes, me too. But this would definitely end up requiring a lot of paper work, especially for the GM. Something like Skill Rank + 2 would be much simpler.

(1) Limits based on skill would, inevitably, get pretty horrifying on the paperwork side - especially when Limit modifiers come into effect.
(2) Something like Skill Rank + 2 would deliver limits under what they seem to be after. Even if every involved Attribute is a 2, your Limit is 4. An average Ork is at Physical 7 (assuming rounding up) - based on SR4A's chargen skill limits, they couldn't get that for more than one skill out the gate using Skill + 2.

My point is not based on the idea of providing a high limit. My iintent is to provide a limit based on skill level. I think limits based on Attribute is hokey. But that is, of course, my opinion.

It isn't, because Edge - as a mechanic - is the only way to bypass your limits. And thus it is the only way to apply your "Lucky Dice Roll" to have an actual effect, if the previews are to be believed.

Of course it will still require edge, but perhaps you will be able to use that point of edge to negate the limit when you see you have managed to exceed your limit by a large number of hits.

Still sucks though.

Not really quite accurate... I have seen MANY characters with most of those skills on their sheet. Hell, I have a character (Non-Augmented Sam) that I play that has all but 2 of them (the Exotic Weapon Proficiencies - which are unique to each exotic weapon anyways) on the sheet. Utility of skills is dictated by the uses the character is put. I can honestly even say that the character has used each and every one of those skills (sans ExWpns) too, so saying that some of them are useless or not being made use of is somewhat disengenuous. *shrug*

Even my Infiltration/Ninja Adept uses almost all of those skills.
I find it hard to believe that taking the vast majority of those skills is unique to just me.

So choosing to roll more dice is not "getting lucky when the player chooses"?

And my point is that it shouldn't require that resource expenditure. *shrug*
As others have stated, it just makes Edge that much more powerful, for no real reason.

The outcome isn't determinable until the dice have been rolled.
Getting lucky doesn't require, in SR4.5, the use of edge.

Well, one easy houserule option that's available is to go back to the old rules for combat pool and such - if you're not worried about dice pool inflation, you could simply change Limits to Pools.

Stealth: Edge is a luck mechanic, pure and simple. What is the Edge reroll mechanic if not deciding to get lucky?

You should not have to expend a resource to get lucky... that is stupid and ham-handed.

In SR4A, you can Choose to TRY and get lucky, or just accept what luck you had at the whim of the dice, and I am okay with that. However, forcing someone to expend a resource to GET lucky (especially when they have ALREADY gotten lucky by obtaining a large number of hits from their DP roll) is a poor design choice. It Punishes you, rather than rewarding you.

I think I would've rather seen attributes count half toward their skills, skills going from 0-12, and most modifiers pushing around the threshold instead of modifying the dice pool.

So an Agility 4, Pistols 6 character with a smartlink shooting an aimed shot at a target in cover at long range might face this:

Agility/2 + Pistols = 8 dice to roll
Long Range (2) + Cover (1) - Smartlink (1) - Aiming (1) = +1
8 dice vs target threshold 2
Say he gets 3 hits. One hit goes in the trash to cover the threshold modifier. The target now rolls his Reaction to try and dodge the 2 hits.

The target doesn't need dice pool modifiers for cover since they're already factored into the shot (making that brand of cover worth about 3-4 dice on average), already leaving him with fewer hits to overcome.

That's streamlined. There are only two sets of numbers to keep track of -- dice pool and threshold modifiers. Threshold modifiers are easy to apply on the fly, because they generally only come in three flavors:

+1 or -1: bad or good
+2 or -2: really bad or really good
+3 or -3: insane

Dice pools don't skyrocket (Body 15 troll with 10 skill = 17 or 18 dice depending on how you round), skill dice are more important than attribute dice (keeping attribute-heavy metas from completely dominating), and look, no limits (not needed with lower dice pools and variable thresholds).

I'll mention again that I love tinkering with game mechanics.

I wasn't disagreeing with you.



Edge being more powerful because of this is an illusion. Everything else is being downplayed, so Edge only appears that way.

An ork doesn't look like a giant next to a shadowrun elf, but when you change those elves to ones belonging to Santa, he looks like a giant.

what does NDA stand for?

Non-Disclosure Agreement. It means they've signed a form that doesn't let them release certain information without permission from the company.

So Edge in SR4, which is a stat that is the Luck Stat, and is a resource that can be spent to be lucky, is....fine....?

Your argument makes no sense when compared to the existing rules which you have no problems with.

Why would I want to go back to the Pools of previous editions? I was glad to see them go the way of extinction. *shrug*
Besides, Deciding to be Lucky is pretty dumb, don't you think? You make it sound like it is a predictable occurance. Kind of counter to the actual terminology, don''t you think?

Sure, it is a Mechanic that you can use to TRY and get lucky, not to guarantee it. And as such, it works great in SR4A, where there are no Limits in place. You can get lucky in the Dice Roll itself, or you can TRY (And I emphasize that again) to influence that Luck by either Rolling more Dice (Spending Edge prior) or Rerolling Failed Dice (After the Fact).

But see, here is the difference... Edge expenditure shpouild NEVER guarantee Luck (and in SR4A, it does not). Unfortunately, becuase of Limits, that is exactly what it does in SR5, and it punishes you for it to boot (Because you HAVE to spend a resource to benefit from that capricious thing called Luck).

I think the issue lies in the fact that in SR4, you CAN get those really lucky rolls without the use of Edge - like the time I rolled something like 9 hits from 11 dice on a Judge Intentions test.

Anyone with me on just how disadvantaged AGI goes?

Most "Mental-Skills" are Logic based ... so LOG being *2 in mental limit.
Most "Social-Skills" are Charisma based ... so CHA being *2 ind social limit.
Most "Combat-Skills" are Agility based ... so Agility is no matter in their limit ... WTF?

Because Agility is already overloaded.



My point is, TJ's complaint is just as applicable to the other uses of edge, which he has no problems with. Either have an argument that makes sense, regardless of the exact mechanic, or shut your trap. "I don't like that you can choose to be lucky" applies just as validly to the other uses of Edge as it does to this new one. Either deal with it, or find a better argument.

It's like saying, "I don't like this room, it's painted white" when you were just fine with every other white-painted room you've been shown.

Just a suggestion. An alternative would be to come up with some way to use hits that go over your limit somehow - like being able to spend hits for special effect or something.

But I don't agree that deciding to be lucky is "dumb". I love mechanics like Edge, because they give players serious narrative control; I'd actually like to take it farther.

Except most Agility skills are variations on one theme -- shooting people. Charisma just doesn't have 5 skills that cover slight variations on Negotiation.

His argument makes perfect sense to me, so I will try and help you understand it:

What he is saying is that in SR4, you could manage to get lucky by rolling a very good result, and you could use it; or you could force the issue by spending a point of Edge.

Now, in SR5, the only way you can luck out on a roll is if you spend that point of Edge.

Edge use in SR4A DOES NOT GUARANTEE ANY LUCK AT ALL... all it does is increases your CHANCES of it having an effect. Quite different that what it does in SR5. *shrug*

The fact that you cannot see that is mind-boggling to me. *shrug*

Example - I have a DP of 12
In SR4A, I can Roll the Dice and hope for the best (generally what I choose to do), or I can add Edge (Before or After) to try and manipulate chance to be in my favor. Either way, the number of hits I get determines the effect. So, I roll my 12 Dice, and get 10 Hits (Really freaking amazing)... I apply all my hits for a really freaking amazing result. Yay Me, Fortune has smiled upon me with all of its benevolent Glory.

In SR5... I roll my 12 Dice... I get 10 Hits, but ooops, I only have a Limit of 5, so Now, I am reduced to 5 Hits (my really freaking amazing success is trivialized) unless I am willing to pay a price for Luck choosing to smile upon my action. I am not really freaking amazing unless I pay that price, so I am therefore punished for making a really good roll, because I must now PAY A PENALTY for making that really freaking amazing dice roll.

THAT IS STUPID...

I think you are in the minority on this one, but I might be wrong. *shrug*

Perhaps in physical tasks, trolls win, elves lose? I hope that gear makes all of this irrelevant.


I think that attributes contribute too many dice to pools. I hope that higher skill maximums help to balance that.

A page behind here

Wow, three more replies while I was editing my post.



Then suggest something that isn't just as stupid or worse. Dice pool caps are stupid. Now my position is just as well argued as yours.

Unless I misread your post, I think you are missing the argument completely.

I suggested several things that I think would work pretty well, but I'm just a mathematician and not a magical game designer.

Agreed. It's not enough to complain. You have to want to be part of the solution.

Part of my issue with this line of reasoning may be in the way that it is expressed - it generally comes across as someone suggesting that it is a factual point that attributes make too large a contribution, as though it were some sort of accident or error rather than simply a matter of what a person prefers.

It is a little strange that Elves won't trend towards better limits, but a higher limit doesn't make you better, it's just potential.

I think that you miss my point a tad bit. The decision (in game) to tempt fate (by spending Edge) is well and good, but that expenditure should not be a guarantee of success. And fortunately for me, in SR4Aa, it isn't. However, You can NEVER just get lucky in SR5, because you MUST PAY A RESOURCE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE of it. That is just resource management at that point. You are now relegated to the commonness of the masses.

Hell, in SR4A, the Common Guard can get Lucky (because teh GM is runing HOT that night on his rolls), and actually hurt the Combat Troll. Not so much in SR5, because he may never actually have that resource to activate that luck. And without that Resource, well, he is just SOL. Whose brilliant idea was that?

Make sensible characters? We don't seem to have the problems that YOU seem to complain about in game. *shrug*

Edge in Sr4.5 is already overpowered. It needs to be reined in, not expanded. Edge does too much, provides too much benefit at high levels, and enables some nasty "Nova" rounds which can break the game if not controlled. Making Edge do even more is just crazy.

I'm not allowed to give examples anymore, but let's just say that it's been demonstrated many times that a high Edge can break the game in several different ways.

I don't have the problems you complain about.

Golly gee.

My arguments are pretty well known here on the boards (over the last several years), but they tend to be discounted by some here as something akin to a "Gentleman's Agreement" that we apparently have at our table to not break the game. It really is just this simple... DO NOT TRY TO BREAK THE GAME. *shrug*

Not bad suggestions, either, though there's some issues in terms of player psychology (especially in terms of just not making as much intuitive sense) as well as the general issues that come up when stuff is being halved.

You ignored a keyword in my post.

SR4.5 does not require the use of edge to be lucky. That is the defining line.

--



The only use of edge where it is only possible to gaurantee luck through edge is through HoG which is a burning of edge rather than spending a point of edge.

If I'm not mistaken, Edge debuted in one of the early FASA products -- the earliest I've seen it is MechWarrior 2nd Edition (1991), though I heard it was in 1st (1986?). Problem is, it didn't transfer well between variable target and fixed target systems (it used to be primarily useful to make extreme longshot rolls somewhat plausible, but still unlikely). Karma Pool was slightly better (a la SR3) since you had to spend points on an increasing scale (3 dice = 6 KP) so it was primarily used for botched roll recovery (but had the nasty habit of stockpiling awkwardly in advanced characters).

One problem is that most games are almost always inevitably broken in one way or another already.