Have you read the Denver story?

Puck is way worse than Clockwork.



No idea on the first part, but I think

I haven't gotten there yet. If that's the case he might get on up there with Clockwork as "One who needs to die painfully". With new information, my opinions do change.

I didn't follow with the mime debate, what have he done?
I mean the nicest way I can describe him is as a loose variable, but he ain't all bad he just don't get along with people.

Puck?
Simply start calling him Puck Bin Laden.

No, Clockwork...
Who's Puck? When did we get into a midsummer nights dream?

He?
That is not related to Storm Front.
He tried to capture and sell Netcat to MCT (or was it NeoNet)?

Puck is a former follower of Deus.

Wasn't that Pax, not Puck?

Both worked for him.

Burn its neurons, leave it to the ghouls.

Nope. Like whenn you go to Renraku's Kuala Lumpur Arcology and douse the entire ventilation system with Seven7. There's a slight difference there. Combatants versus civilians. Puck is a concentration camp organiser, not an enemy combatant.

Besides, Puck betrayed Pax and is now fighting her, because Dissonants cannot get along very well. Your argument has no foundation, Pepsi.


Unwired, the Paragons ... we've been there before, so this is just for reference.

What about Kane? He sells shipping containers full of organs to body harvesters. In their "original packaging".

What about Bull? He's turned Seattle into a Circus Act just to get vengeance for his murdered daughter?

What about Slamm-0!? He wants to lay the hurting on someone really, really bad because they trashed his favorite bowling alley?

What about FastJack? Who knows how much blood is on his hands, because he wipes out any records that hold his name in them routinely, and has been doing it for, what, FIFTY YEARS?

And, what about /dev/grrl? Who willingly joined all of these people, which would obviously be against her parents and their owner's wishes?

Which probably explains why he got off the hook so easily...


You certainly did claim before that the combination of Paragons and Streams which lends some credibility to your theory has to be correct...but at least at that time could not support that any better than a claim that Christian mages have it right and everybody else is wrong. Apparently, not much change in that regard.

Useful skills are helpful there. After al, genocide is a statistic and all that. No, I seriously never understood why Jack mollycoddles him like that.


Christian mages are (probably) correct. After all, Mentor Spirits DO exist.

"A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." - Joe Stalin

I don't see the connection, not to a larger degree then any other tradition.

"Christian mages" are mages with a Methor spirit who appears as one of a variety of incarnations of the christian god, Jesus, or one of their assorted saints, by sect and church. Or do you mean 'standard mages who are also somehow Christian'?

I don't see how either of them helps understanding the nature of mana or spirits

I've always felt for Puck. He keeps getting used, Pax and Dues, Pax, Gywplane or whatever Harley's former ally is called.

Alamais has always gotten the short end of the stick and Lofwyr is untouchable. Just the way it is. Do I see Alamais playing the game the way it is depicted in the book? No. They always assume his arrogance leads him to stupid mistakes. I always thought of it as his arrogance led him to stupid mistakes, and after getting his rear handed to him by someone he would not make the same mistake again. Also Alamais always struck me as someone who likes to play it safe, in other words he likes the advantage that home ground brings. He would be more likely to onlly mess with his brother if he was essentially guaranteed to win. In other words Alamais would only engage Lofwyr if he could do so without exposing himself to harm, or after Lofwyr was engaged with someone else. I am sad to see Alamais go, if they were going to off someone it should have been Sirrurg.

Kinda always felt like Al was "Starscream" in the mix of things. Always bucking for that top spot but not really able to pull it off.

Lofwyr isn't untouchable. Every dragon head was on the chopping block, up to, and including, Lofwyr. It would have had to be an amazing proposal, but, it could have happened. Don't think that ol' Golden Snout's immune to harm. Anybody else, for that matter. Death isn't capricious, but, it's possible for anybody in any book at any time.

I'll call shenanigans on that. From the first time Lofwyr appeared until now he has always come out on top, with no serious harm. Acting or presenting something as his head being on the chopping block, and it actually being so are two very different things. I have yet to read a piece of SR fiction where I thought Lofwyr or his plans were seriously endangered. Sorry not buying it. They missed a fantastic opportunity to shake things up, instead S-K and Lofwyr plod along...how very boring and predictable.

And that makes them more likely to be to be correct than other tradition who have mentor spirits that appear in accordance with the mythology relevant to their tradition how, exactly?

Not at all. Both Mentor spirits exist (not even the bible claims no other deities exist, only that only one deity is to be worshipped, important difference).

I gotta disagree there. Lofwyr was winning that fight hands down, even when the lodge hit, it wasn't enough to stop him. Towards the end of the fight it was extremely clear that the three greats could have just flown in on their own with out any aid what so ever and ended the fight in a few minutes.

I'm not saying that he's never been in danger. I'm just saying his fight with Al, wasn't an instance.

As I edit this post for the, gah. Sixth time? Before posting?

In the story you read, there was a result that could be seen as inevitable.

That was not the only story that could have filled those pages.

Several people sent in submissions for it, some of which had Lowfyr dying, some with Alamais dying, some with others dying. The powers that be went with a story that had Lofwyr winning, but the result was open-ended when they asked the writers to finish the story. I don't know if I can discuss the version I put together, I think Catalyst owns the stuff I float in the backchannels, let alone what other people floated, but, yes, depending on the story, Lofwyr could have been slain.

2nd edition killed a Great Dragon/President of the UCAS. 3rd killed a Megacorporation and knocked another out of AAA-status. 4th took out another Great, an Immortal Elf, and at least two CEOs. Nobody's above a killin'. (That said, I've suggested a few deaths and been rejected. No need for a bloodbath out there. Death should always serve the story. There'll be no bodies stacked up like cordwood without good reason.)

Wakshaani, which parts of the book did you write?

Same thoughts. No idea why he did it. Maybe they knew him and he wanted no one to know that he did a run against NeoNET?


Ditto.
Again, Alamais is just plain more interesting to the setting. He has a philosophy, there's his relationship with immortal elves, his animosity with Lofwyr etc. All this could be used in the games in a variety of different ways.


It may not have been the only story submitted, but the final version shows that Alamais lost it before the battle proper started. We are shown that the power level difference between Great Dragon and everyone else present is so huge, that no one can stand opposition to a great save another great. Lofwyr had three greats, Alamais had one. Cue the obvious outcome with (un)necessary theatrics (Lofwyr's move to let metahumans finish Alamais off was nasty by the way. Liked it a lot). So, was Alamais that arrogant/stupid/whatever that he thought he will not only get Lofwyr, but whole his pack? Of course, maybe he was expecting some gamechanger that would have leveled the odds - other greats coming to help him or greats abandoning Lofwyr, that didn't happen, but there's no implimintation of this in the book (unfortunately).

The Japanacorps section in this one. Any problems in there are squarely on my head. (I realized one error the very day it went into PDF form. It was a small one, but it'll bug me until I can correct it down the line.)

I made a go for the end of the Am-Az war, and I had an end in mind for the Dragon Civil War, but I ran out of time before submitting that one. The competition for those two was rather fierce, mind you, so I don't mind losing out.

My biggest project is a PDF only one that's been pushed back. With the changes from 4th to 5th, I have to rewrite a ton of it, but it'll be better for it. I'm hoping to get some more PDF things for down the line, to try and plug some small holes here and there, but it's not for me to decide. I'm just a pen-for-hire.

The final short story in Street Legends. I just finished it earlier today. Wow!

I would suggest rereading that section again. Lofwyr was the one with a gut puncture, not Alamais. As for the Black Lodge and the blast, THAT is where I call shenanigans ... Waaaaay too much writer-freedom there, unless the rules for Rush Job works with ritual magic. My vote is a major setup to be frank. Lung made the call on how it couldn't be Hestaby and such. If he has that kind of acumen, then why did he not interfere with what was obviously a major interference to the Draconic challenge being waged right in front of him.

Nice. I like your style. I'll keep an eye out.

Thanks. Someone along the line gave me a list and I spent an evening going through about 10 books and re-aquaiting myself. I'd read most of it but over years it'd been kinda disjointed.

Ehh.. I suggest you re-read the section again.

Details of the fight.


Please show me where, at any point in time, in the fight, Al had the upper hand? He did get a claw to the belly in the first moments of the fight but it wasn't an upper hand. It came after a bite to the neck. The rest is quoted. Lofwyr whupped his butt up to the Black Lodge attack and even with an exposed rib cage he batted Al to the side and pounced on him and raked him into 'tenderized meat'. Note the "Al landed some good shots, but they were few and far between" Then... well the rest of the write up where Lo just beats the peer livin' crap out of him.

Even after he was magi-nuked, he bats Al away and claws him to near death.

And there is zero indication that their interpretation of spirits and magic in general holds any more water than your tin foil hatter view of Paragons.


The OT is monolatristic, by the time the NT was written that had evolved into strict monotheism.

I would agree that Lofwyr is to some degree untouchable. For one he is an example of successful fantasy/modern integration. Having a dragon micro-managing the world's biggest megacorporation is nothing less than a selling point for the Sixth World setting. Sure there are other corporate dragons and you could replace him with another dragon doing basically the same thing and that might work for people new to Shadowrun but would probably endlessly annoy those in the know. Then, not touching Lofwyr could also be about protecting the German and maybe too a lesser degree European Shadowrun market. Losing Lofwyr and by extension the dominant position of Saeder-Krupp is one of the things where to me the local setting (Germany/Europe) would really lose a lot of its already underserved appeal. We had this debate, whether you can ever do anything with the setting (much easier with rules) that will cause a properly hooked Shadowrun fan to abandon buying new products. But there is a difference between knowing that it likely will not happen and being convinced that it will not happen. Also really there are bounds of reason if you come up with the most incredible plot ever, that makes it necessary for North America to drown into the ocean, will you do it? No, you won't. Of course not, not even if all its inhabitants are secretly fitted with cybergills by a cabal of Atlanteans.

I think that "nobody is above killing" is somewhat misguided. Top tier megacorporations and Great Dragons should be like constellations of the firmament. You might with incredible luck see one among them wink out in your lifetime. Yes, they wax and wane as stars do, but other than that they are functionally eternal. For decades both the triple-A corporate scene and the Great Dragons had no casualties and hardly newcomers. As it should be. It's the ultimate contrast between you the runner and them. Your life is short, theirs is never-ending. The best you can hope for is to take down a corporate executive who confused his corporation's immortality with his own or deny a Great Dragon her prize for a time. There are still high stakes in this kind of world, whole cities can be swallowed up, nation states can fall, the global information network can be destroyed or reshaped. Well, that's the way I envision it but it has long been broken.

All that said, I do think there is a reason Lofwyr prevails. He is no risk-taker and he sticks to his plans. If you think of System Failure for example he had information about the impending destruction of the matrix. Did he use that knowledge for a grand plan to take over the world? No, he hardened Saeder-Krupp and the European grid to come out on top after the crash. In a German campaign on Proteus, he in the end installs an ally in the new Proteus incarnation. Doesn't take over the corporation or tries to get control of its puppet board, doesn't install a puppet himself just someone who owes him. The world churns on, throws things at him, he adapts. Really every Great Dragon should work like that, even the reformer, the radical. You don't stake everything on one card.

So regarding Alamais, I just don't know. Like any supremacist he lacked love in his life, rejected by his own children. At least the immortal elves I assume are glad their progenitor is finally gone, he started to become a bit of an embarrassment.

THIS.

I was hoping by some chance of fate that Loffy would bite it because as it is now, Europe sucks. It's boring and trite and S-K just makes everything suck for the most part. Getting rid of him would have made huge possibilities for storyline and adventure over there. I can see Ally being a much easier element to get rid of but Loffy would have been so much better IMHO.

I have to disagree and not only because I happen to believe Lofwyr is a cornerstone of the European setting. In a more general sense, are these world-shaking events really the best way to motivate shadowruns? So you remove Lofwyr and the power landscape in Europe or really world-wide shifts and you get a whole bunch of run opportunities out of it, but are these really qualitatively different from runs you get out of business as usual? Tension breeds plenty of shadow work, you don't really need so many changes for this. So the sixth world could grow more organically and less spectacle-centered.

And more to the point I really don't see why Saeder-Krupp is in the way of telling stories in Europe, if anything all their opposition from anti-eurocrats to dragon agents to other corporations should provide a lot of opportunity to do so. S-K can also be completely ignored. If you find Europe boring I would blame the storyline it has going (NEEC) or maybe it is simply underused (as are many parts of the sixth world). Now I don't object to breaking Saeder-Krupp's series of successes though as I just wrote they are already moderated by Lofwyr usually not accomplishing that much. He is a defender of the status quo, which of course favors him.

With a new edition and something of a fresh start this is the right time to discuss questions of how Shadowrun should go on, even though this thread is about Storm Front. I know.

As a European, I think SK severely hinders the potential of European SR storylines, it's to omnipresent and with a dragon at the rodder it practically unshakable.
I would love for Europe to be more fleshed out, by authors that actually live here. I would like if every place I know wasn't a toxic wasteland, lawless or completely reverted to nature.

Nah, Europe in the 6th World isn't that one-dimensional. Would love to use the SKs potential for an overhaul of the german setting, though. Unification of the splintered german states under the rule of a single, powerful figure to end the sillyness that is the current AGS.

I guess if you have a storyline that involves abandoning the European unification you would have Saeder-Krupp as a major obstacle. Other than that, I really don't see the problem. Either ignore them, have them on one or the other side of the conflict. Have them on the losing side as a prime opportunity to let Lofwyr taste a bit of defeat. Also Scandinavia with the exception of Norway doesn't have more than the typical share of S-K presence, which is to say AAA presence, if I'm not mistaken?

Lofwyr isn't Austrian, is he?

If Im not mistaken and I very well might be, the Scandunion pretty heavily limited AAA presence thus far, the major players would be SK and NeoNet though along with a couple AA's that's pretty lol worthy from a current perspective, well maybe with the exception of Maersk.
You don't really hear much of us...
There's the Nanosecond buy out and Winternight, other then that? Not much I can recall on top of my head.
Running here using the official stance is kinda mote though, my hometown got struck by the toxic sludge

About Shadowtalks:

I think they are nice to start a plot, develop some parts of it thanks to the limited views they grant but, up to one point, there has to be a gamemaster book. Written for the GM with no bias.

Just plain truth. Just the kind of books that reaveals the shadowly details. Like you just understand that this rumor or that hints were all forming a mega-plot consistent and well thougth.

A GM book would be nice, but I don't think it should spill the beans, the intrigue is very much part of the setting and leaving it up to the gm to decide what's really going on gives some creative elbow room... Personally that's how I like it, enough framework to inspire, but not enough to force.

I wouldn't opposed to a new Threats book in 5E to summarize all the ongoing plots and secret societies.

Do we really 'need' a gm book? The stuff that's out lined in the fluff books usually have offset stats and stuff when and if needed.

We're getting that Starter kit. Seems fun. Do we need more than that?

Depends on the Starter kit I guess.
Shadowrun is so full of intrigues and metaplots, new GMs are in over their head with it. Sure, they simply can't use them, but thats not really optimal now, isn't it?

+1(000)

http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2013/02/p...uctory-box-set/

Looks to have alot of potential.

"Shadowrun Introductory Box Set.

The goal of the set is simple: It should have everything you need to quickly and easily launch an adventure in Shadowrun’s Sixth World setting. It should be approachable, fun to use, eye-catching, and entertaining.
With those larger goals in mind, we set about planning the contents for the box. Here’s what’s going in:

The Edge of Now: A world book introducing players to the madness, magic, and mean streets of the Sixth World, providing what they need to know to hit the streets at top speed.
Rules of the Street: A simplified rulebook that includes the critical elements of Shadowrun—Matrix, magic, machines, and so on—in an easy-to-use fashion.
Plots and Paydays: An adventure book with complete information on missions for the players; they can be played alone, or as a longer, inter-connected campaign.
Character Booklets: Four pre-generated character sheets, with stats, background, favored tactics, and advancement possibilities—everything you need to pick a character and start earning some nuyen.
Character sheets: Custom sheets for each character, with complete stats for easy reference, along with full-color character art.
Maps: Modular maps of common areas shadowrunners may run into that can be arranged in different ways to suit a variety of missions.
Spell and Gear Cards: Cards that list the stats spells and gear included in the game, so that players have an easy reference in front of them.

We’re looking for ways to include more, including counters that can help you track the position of your runners and their opponents as they go about their business. We’re also hoping to include customized dice instead of just standard D6s; we love seeing the Shadowrun logo come up when we roll dice."

When I talk about a GM book I was thinking of something that would help GMs structure/flesh out runs, on the go matrix networks or security setups, maps for common locations, goons and prime runners, reward guidelines, inspiration for runs, themes, overarching goals, tips&tricks and of course a run or two to start you out.