As much as it pains me to do so (as I had been looking forward to the book greatly), I need to toss my hat into the ring and also say that I don't find the scenarios particularly inspirational, as wholes or taken apart. By and large the events are just too untouchable (the dragon conflict, the Aztlan/Sirrurg/Amazonia conflict), too out of the league of common-or-garden runners (the above two, the Ghostwalker/Harlequin conflict), or are frankly either almost completely background or metaplot with little way to link into my game (Dodger, much as I'm fond of him -- not so fond of that "killing teenagers" bit, as it please ye), or are, sorry to say, depressing and dark as all hell to my point of view (the Infected scenario, Hestaby's exile, the entire part-and-parcel of the "AIs/eghosts possessing people and there's screwall to be done really" -- which, yes, is how it comes across. just dump and purge, and a reason to refresh JackPoint's cast for the new edition, is how it reads).
I could perhaps get some milage out of some of the Seattle material, but really I'd rather not deal with food shortages mass riots and the like. Again, dark and unpleasant abounds.
Cutting through the teal deer, Storm Front reads as both out of my game's league power-wise, and out of the zone of how much catastrophe and misery we want to deal with at the table. There's not really much for us to borrow.
Full Version: Storm Front is out!
What are people expected to do with stuff like Ghostwalker of all beings going mad with power and Sirit Supremeacist and arresting and imprisoning Perianwyr, the music loving Dragon of all other Beings, just for having summoned a spirit and treason?
Going with Bull as Mayor of Seattle would be way more plausible than that . .
Going with Bull as Mayor of Seattle would be way more plausible than that . .
QUOTE (TaiChara @ Mar 29 2013, 12:14 PM) 
the entire part-and-parcel of the "AIs/eghosts possessing people and there's screwall to be done really" -- which, yes, is how it comes across. just dump and purge, and a reason to refresh JackPoint's cast for the new edition, is how it reads).
Yeah. No offense to the writing staff, but seriously they couldn't come up with a better threat to put in than yet another possession enemy? That's what, three now, between the shedim, bugs, and this, counting antagonists only?
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Mar 29 2013, 07:26 PM)
Yeah. No offense to the writing staff, but seriously they couldn't come up with a better threat to put in than yet another possession enemy? That's what, three now, between the shedim, bugs, and this, counting antagonists only?
Personally, I think this is Hardy making lemons of lemonade - making a plot of bizarre mischaracterisation of Jackpointers by freelancers either too lazy or not good enough to live up to what the characters are supposed to be like. Still the writeup was among the more solid parts of the book, and it DOES deal with the Technomancer/AI thread, it seems. I'll see where it goes.
QUOTE
A follow-up to the Artifacts plot, which was just a giant ruse, this writeup details the buildup and climax of Harlequin's revenge on Ghostwalker. Seems Harles really didn't pull any stops - an all-elf gang is wiped out because he apparently made a pact with his worse self, the Jester Spirit (kudos for the writer if that indeed is a shout-out). On top of that, Zebulon seems to convince Ghostwalker to act even more like a giant, pale dick than he usually does, like arrest Perianwyr over a crime that he made retroactively a crime - summoning spirits. Anything to please the lady, I guess. This book makes me seriously question draconic intelligence.
Anyway, Harles then starts an asymmetrical war in the city using the Vory, the Zombies and Fronts gangs (both massively buffed by loot from the all-elf Godz, and the Jester Spirit), something he already did in Tir Tairngire to, basically, kick Ehran in the nuts. Just how many people died in the Elf civil war? Probably more than a few ZDF troopers, and yet, Frosty is absolutely shocked Harlequin would do something as horrible as using IEDs on soldiers and then shoot the survivors. Because it's not like he didn't do that already and she was cheering over it. Widely out of character again. Maybe CGL should set up an internal guide on how these characters work.
Aftter a few shenanigans, we get to the final showdown, which is basically Harley making people dress up in V for Vendetta fatigues and doing V for Vendetta showdowny things. This actually meshes reasonably well with pop culture quote freak Harles, but then he and Ghostwalker (who all of a sudden asks people to go away before they're hurt, several times - what is the MATTER with you, Ghosty?) - and then proceed to summon Godzilla-sized spirits and lob them at each other because... well, reasons, I suppose. In the end, Frosty and Ehran intervene, and talk Harley down, who has Ghostwalker on the brink of being slain, with only a few HP left (he even looks battered, it's the high damage image), while Harley developed Superman invincibility somehow, but maybe he was channeling Jester Spirit. Then, Harley is all "oh my god what have I done, precious soldiers are dead!" and now wants to make everything right.
Then, suddenly, Aztlan. Sneak attack +4! Aztlan conquers half the PCC sector because they rolled stealth really well. Nobody cares because fortunately, the first treaty of Denver is void and nobody gives a fuck about the second, because they only signed it. International treaties are there for the US UCAS and friends to be ignored after all! So when Colloton visits, she just declares the treaty void because she doesn't like it, like the UCAS was the US and not a fraction of a former superpower more on par with modern Britain, bitterly reminiscing its once great power while the country slowly falls apart. Ghostwalker, mysteriously, withdraws into his hoard (not horde) to sulk, says something about how everyone who wronged him will see what that gets them in the far future, and ignores everyone walking all over his little fiefdom. What. Oh yeah, and some runners bust out Perianwyr. I'd say bad things about that handwave, but it seems there's a missions book built around that, so I'll just nod and wait for that book.
This chapter is ... mediocre. It's written well enough and works when taken at face value, though it ends on a far more DragonballZ-ish note than I like (but that seems Shadowrun's direction by now, in general). I am left wondering what the hell happened to Ghostwalker. Maybe this is another plot thread, though, so I guess I'll wait and see. Season 4 Missions was supposed to be in Denver, right? No sure how I like this, it has its ups and down. I'm not even mentioning bad editing anymore, just imagine it is added to every chapter review; it is not as bad as in Tirump [sic!] of Aztlan though.
The Aztlan part leaves me baffled, however. That was unnecessary and makes no sense AT ALL. Aztlan won their war and Sirrurg. That really was enough to make them a threat. Besides, where the hell did that third army come from? They spent their army twice already!
Anyway, Harles then starts an asymmetrical war in the city using the Vory, the Zombies and Fronts gangs (both massively buffed by loot from the all-elf Godz, and the Jester Spirit), something he already did in Tir Tairngire to, basically, kick Ehran in the nuts. Just how many people died in the Elf civil war? Probably more than a few ZDF troopers, and yet, Frosty is absolutely shocked Harlequin would do something as horrible as using IEDs on soldiers and then shoot the survivors. Because it's not like he didn't do that already and she was cheering over it. Widely out of character again. Maybe CGL should set up an internal guide on how these characters work.
Aftter a few shenanigans, we get to the final showdown, which is basically Harley making people dress up in V for Vendetta fatigues and doing V for Vendetta showdowny things. This actually meshes reasonably well with pop culture quote freak Harles, but then he and Ghostwalker (who all of a sudden asks people to go away before they're hurt, several times - what is the MATTER with you, Ghosty?) - and then proceed to summon Godzilla-sized spirits and lob them at each other because... well, reasons, I suppose. In the end, Frosty and Ehran intervene, and talk Harley down, who has Ghostwalker on the brink of being slain, with only a few HP left (he even looks battered, it's the high damage image), while Harley developed Superman invincibility somehow, but maybe he was channeling Jester Spirit. Then, Harley is all "oh my god what have I done, precious soldiers are dead!" and now wants to make everything right.
Then, suddenly, Aztlan. Sneak attack +4! Aztlan conquers half the PCC sector because they rolled stealth really well. Nobody cares because fortunately, the first treaty of Denver is void and nobody gives a fuck about the second, because they only signed it. International treaties are there for the US UCAS and friends to be ignored after all! So when Colloton visits, she just declares the treaty void because she doesn't like it, like the UCAS was the US and not a fraction of a former superpower more on par with modern Britain, bitterly reminiscing its once great power while the country slowly falls apart. Ghostwalker, mysteriously, withdraws into his hoard (not horde) to sulk, says something about how everyone who wronged him will see what that gets them in the far future, and ignores everyone walking all over his little fiefdom. What. Oh yeah, and some runners bust out Perianwyr. I'd say bad things about that handwave, but it seems there's a missions book built around that, so I'll just nod and wait for that book.
This chapter is ... mediocre. It's written well enough and works when taken at face value, though it ends on a far more DragonballZ-ish note than I like (but that seems Shadowrun's direction by now, in general). I am left wondering what the hell happened to Ghostwalker. Maybe this is another plot thread, though, so I guess I'll wait and see. Season 4 Missions was supposed to be in Denver, right? No sure how I like this, it has its ups and down. I'm not even mentioning bad editing anymore, just imagine it is added to every chapter review; it is not as bad as in Tirump [sic!] of Aztlan though.
The Aztlan part leaves me baffled, however. That was unnecessary and makes no sense AT ALL. Aztlan won their war and Sirrurg. That really was enough to make them a threat. Besides, where the hell did that third army come from? They spent their army twice already!
Hi Hermit, I wrote the Lightning In Denver chapter. I just want to say, thanks for the feedback, while I don't agree with some of what you said, and in other cases, I think you need to look closer (of course, things getting missed/misinterpreted left and right is par for the course with SR fiction, where muddying the waters is half of the job). Nonetheless I try really hard to be receptive to criticism.
* " a crime that he made retroactively a crime - summoning spirits"
It is not |retroactively| a crime. It's also pretty transparently a paper-thin excuse for seizing Perianwyr as a political prisoner.
* "the Jester Spirit (kudos for the writer if that indeed is a shout-out)"
Of course it is. The SNES game is what brought me into the fandom (I'm dating myself here!).
* Re: Harlequin and Frosty participating in the Tir Tairngire civil war to dickpunch Ehran. Book and page references, please? If I overlooked that, that was a serious error on my part, but I don't personally recall that ever happening. (I actually do a huge amount of research for everything SR I write, but with such an enormous pre-existing canon, it's easy to miss things no matter how rigorously you attempt to scour existing text.)
* "[Ghostwalker] all of a sudden asks people to go away before they're hurt, several times - what is the MATTER with you, Ghosty?"
It is just possible that this, Ghostwalker's "change of heart", and "Zebulon seems to convince Ghostwalker to act even more like a giant, pale dick than he usually does", are related phenomenon, and both of them are a bit more complicated and nuanced than you're giving them credit for. If reading this chapter gave you the impression that Ghostwalker was behaving somewhat differently than previously characterized...that is exactly the impression it meant to convey. Static characters, by and large, are boring. As you say... "I am left wondering what the hell happened to Ghostwalker." This is also rather intentional.
Anyway, thank you again for the feedback, I hope that didn't come off as overly argumentative or defensive; it is never easy to read a borderline scathing review of your work, and I've definitely struggled in the past with the (self-destructive) urge to defend my creative choices: for a writer, defending your creative choices is a losing prospect by default.
Oh, for the people saying that the events of Storm Front are too high-profile/high power to involve your PCs, I think at least in the case of Lightning In Denver I wrote some plot-hooks/adventure seeds with getting medium/low level PCs involved firmly in my mind. At least I tried. There is a lot of stuff for runners to do during the siege of Denver, and close to none of it directly involves Ghostwalker or Harlequin directly, just low-level functionaries and indirectly-controlled pawns on both sides.
I happened to have found lots of use and inspiration from the book. I routinely find more from the fluff books than I do the crunch books though.
Just in case people still haven't read it..
Just in case people still haven't read it..
[ Spoiler ]
Who thinks the Azzies giving the PCC part of Texas was a step in their plan to get back into Denver? How else would they be able to cross PCC territory and "take" part of their sector?
Although why the Azzies want to get back into Denver is beyond me. Sheer stubborn pigheadedness?
Although why the Azzies want to get back into Denver is beyond me. Sheer stubborn pigheadedness?
QUOTE (Angelone @ Mar 30 2013, 04:54 PM)
Who thinks the Azzies giving the PCC part of Texas was a step in their plan to get back into Denver?
Is that in Stormfront? So, is the San Marcos locus now on Pueblo territory?QUOTE (Angelone @ Mar 30 2013, 04:54 PM)
How else would they be able to cross PCC territory and "take" part of their sector?
Yeah, I find that one hard to swallow. Last time I checked Aztechnology was forbidden from operating in Denver. So they couldn't have smuggled troops in using the cover of their extraterritorial rights. And I doubt that they secretly control holdings, that have such extraterritorial rights themselves or that they cooperated with another corporation to pull it off. And even if Ghostwalker lost full control over the Denver border, Sioux Nation and Pueblo were not able to counter Aztechnology illegally moving in enough military personal to take and hold a portion of the sprawl? Also how does Aztechnology supply it's troops if the air space around Denver is controlled by Sioux and Pueblo? Orbital drop?Anyway, it can't believe it was a deal between PCC and Aztechnology, because as far as I understand it Aztech conquered part of their sector. But it might explain why PCC in the end seems to accept the state of affairs.
QUOTE (lokii @ Mar 30 2013, 05:21 PM)
Anyway, it can't believe it was a deal between PCC and Aztechnology, because as far as I understand it Aztech conquered part of their sector. But it might explain why PCC in the end seems to accept the state of affairs.
Some texan territory in exchange for transition rights and neutrality in Denver.
Sounds like a good deal.
QUOTE (Ixal @ Mar 30 2013, 05:31 PM)
Some texan territory in exchange for transition rights and neutrality in Denver.
Sounds like a good deal.
Yeah, after the fact maybe. But the question as I understood it was whether PCC made a deal with Aztlan where Aztechnology gets an opening for grabbing a part of Denver (as opposed to an actual exchange of territory). That would seem far-fetched to me.
Sounds like a good deal.
QUOTE (lokii @ Mar 30 2013, 05:44 PM)
Yeah, after the fact maybe. But the question as I understood it was whether PCC made a deal with Aztlan where Aztechnology gets an opening for grabbing a part of Denver (as opposed to an actual exchange of territory). That would seem far-fetched to me.
I don't think Aztlan would have worded it like that but imo that would be the case.
Harlequin seems, at least to me, have organized not only the Denver takeover but also helped with Sirrurg (Ritual) and possibly also Bogota. So it all is connected in some way.
Sweet deal for the PCC: trade territories with a hostile state to get your uneasy neighbor's lands!
QUOTE (Ixal @ Mar 30 2013, 01:03 PM)
I don't think Aztlan would have worded it like that but imo that would be the case.
Harlequin seems, at least to me, have organized not only the Denver takeover but also helped with Sirrurg (Ritual) and possibly also Bogota. So it all is connected in some way.
Harlequin seems, at least to me, have organized not only the Denver takeover but also helped with Sirrurg (Ritual) and possibly also Bogota. So it all is connected in some way.
Where did you get that Harle helped with the Sirrurg ritual? I didn't see that when I read through.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 30 2013, 06:21 PM)
Where did you get that Harle helped with the Sirrurg ritual? I didn't see that when I read through.
Its not stated but imo it is just logical that even if Aztlan wanted to help Harlequin just for the chance for getting its Denver holding back that they won't or even can't risk a fight with yet another GD while Sirrung still rampaged through their country. So for Harlequins plan to come in motion he had to be dealt with.
That would explain where Aztlan got that ritual from. Harequin helped them design it.
QUOTE (lokii @ Mar 30 2013, 10:21 AM)
Is that in Stormfront? So, is the San Marcos locus now on Pueblo territory?
Yeah, I find that one hard to swallow. Last time I checked Aztechnology was forbidden from operating in Denver. So they couldn't have smuggled troops in using the cover of their extraterritorial rights. And I doubt that they secretly control holdings, that have such extraterritorial rights themselves or that they cooperated with another corporation to pull it off. And even if Ghostwalker lost full control over the Denver border, Sioux Nation and Pueblo were not able to counter Aztechnology illegally moving in enough military personal to take and hold a portion of the sprawl? Also how does Aztechnology supply it's troops if the air space around Denver is controlled by Sioux and Pueblo? Orbital drop?
Anyway, it can't believe it was a deal between PCC and Aztechnology, because as far as I understand it Aztech conquered part of their sector. But it might explain why PCC in the end seems to accept the state of affairs.
Yeah, I find that one hard to swallow. Last time I checked Aztechnology was forbidden from operating in Denver. So they couldn't have smuggled troops in using the cover of their extraterritorial rights. And I doubt that they secretly control holdings, that have such extraterritorial rights themselves or that they cooperated with another corporation to pull it off. And even if Ghostwalker lost full control over the Denver border, Sioux Nation and Pueblo were not able to counter Aztechnology illegally moving in enough military personal to take and hold a portion of the sprawl? Also how does Aztechnology supply it's troops if the air space around Denver is controlled by Sioux and Pueblo? Orbital drop?
Anyway, it can't believe it was a deal between PCC and Aztechnology, because as far as I understand it Aztech conquered part of their sector. But it might explain why PCC in the end seems to accept the state of affairs.
Dirty Tricks, in the Dirty South section, as the Rio Gambit.
Short form, Aztlan traded a big swath of the former Texas to the PCC for an undisclosed price. (Plan 9 says it was for 1 Nuyen.) CAS smiles, waiting for the PCC to hand them Texas back ... and as it starts looking more and more that they aren't doing so, they start getting *ticked*.
That's one sizzling triangle. (There's also a ton of Shadowrunners being hired in the area as borders shift and security people abandon facilities. Good fun to be had by all!)
This theory does not, however, incorporate the fact that Harlequin is deeply suspicious about anything Aztlan.
And he spit in their soup A LOT in Harlequin's Back.
He did appear in Domingo Chavez's office in Clutch of Dragons, though.
And he spit in their soup A LOT in Harlequin's Back.
He did appear in Domingo Chavez's office in Clutch of Dragons, though.
QUOTE (Ixal @ Mar 30 2013, 01:27 PM)
Its not stated but imo it is just logical that even if Aztlan wanted to help Harlequin just for the chance for getting its Denver holding back that they won't or even can't risk a fight with yet another GD while Sirrung still rampaged through their country. So for Harlequins plan to come in motion he had to be dealt with.
That would explain where Aztlan got that ritual from. Harequin helped them design it.
That would explain where Aztlan got that ritual from. Harequin helped them design it.
Ehhh. Aztechnology has been working with blood magic from almost the start. I don't think they got the ritual from Harle.
I see how you got from A to B on that one, but I don't think so. If so, there'd been some indication.
You can find the indication in the story on the last few pages of Clutch of Dragons. Not particularly inspired, in my opinion, but there you go 
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 30 2013, 06:36 PM)
Ehhh. Aztechnology has been working with blood magic from almost the start. I don't think they got the ritual from Harle.
Correct me when I am wrong, but blood magic is not a different form of magic but just a fuel source. That means there is no specific "Blood Magic" ritual (except maybe for Blood Spirits), just a ritual to disrupt magic (of a great dragon. No idea how specific that ritual was). And with that Harlequin certainly could help. How that ritual is powered is a different matter.
nnnno . .
blood magic is very much different.
so different that it's not allowed for player characters as per the rules for example.
blood magic is very much different.
so different that it's not allowed for player characters as per the rules for example.
QUOTE (Ixal @ Mar 30 2013, 01:39 PM)
Correct me when I am wrong, but blood magic is not a different form of magic but just a fuel source. That means there is no specific "Blood Magic" ritual (except maybe for Blood Spirits), just a ritual to disrupt magic (of a great dragon. No idea how specific that ritual was). And with that Harlequin certainly could help. How that ritual is powered is a different matter.
Again. Ehhhh. All the fluff indicates that Blood Magic is very different and very distinctive than 'normal' magic.
Mechanically, those of us opening Role playing books might roll the same dice. But in world it is described as being something very different. Not that it's not 'magic' but very different and distinctive.
I wouldn't entirely agree. A magician who switches over to blood magic doesn't need to learn all his spells anew. He just uses his or a victim's blood to fuel them instead of facing the drain.
However, it is a tainted business. Dragons and immortal elves alike look at it with disgust, but some kinds (such as some stuff the Heavenherds do, or the reforestation of Amazonia) seem to be more acceptable than other kinds.
It's not really that clear, but Harlequin has been established before to be a strong opponent of blood magic in general, which is why I don't understand how he allies himself with Chavez.
However, it is a tainted business. Dragons and immortal elves alike look at it with disgust, but some kinds (such as some stuff the Heavenherds do, or the reforestation of Amazonia) seem to be more acceptable than other kinds.
It's not really that clear, but Harlequin has been established before to be a strong opponent of blood magic in general, which is why I don't understand how he allies himself with Chavez.
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 30 2013, 06:53 PM)
I wouldn't entirely agree. A magician who switches over to blood magic doesn't need to learn all his spells anew. He just uses his or a victim's blood to fuel them instead of facing the drain.
However, it is a tainted business. Dragons and immortal elves alike look at it with disgust, but some kinds (such as some stuff the Heavenherds do, or the reforestation of Amazonia) seem to be more acceptable than other kinds.
It's not really that clear, but Harlequin has been established before to be a strong opponent of blood magic in general, which is why I don't understand how he allies himself with Chavez.
However, it is a tainted business. Dragons and immortal elves alike look at it with disgust, but some kinds (such as some stuff the Heavenherds do, or the reforestation of Amazonia) seem to be more acceptable than other kinds.
It's not really that clear, but Harlequin has been established before to be a strong opponent of blood magic in general, which is why I don't understand how he allies himself with Chavez.
Considering that after his percieved loss Harlequin operated under a "let to world burn" mindset I don't see it as that strange that he would ally himself with Aztlan if it would allow him to get his revenge on Ghostwalker.
I do, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
It is interesting ... when I first read the short story in CoD, I wasn't really thinking all that much about it, but now, having read Storm Front, I have a clearer view about why I don't like either parts of both books.
It is interesting ... when I first read the short story in CoD, I wasn't really thinking all that much about it, but now, having read Storm Front, I have a clearer view about why I don't like either parts of both books.
I wonder if some of the blood magic confusion comes from the ED blood magic, which isn't evil, and what Goes on in Aztech back rooms.
That's very likely.
Didn't Aztech purge the Gestalt's remains and have them flee to MCT's Unit 13?
Also, Aztech seems to become Neo-Thera more and more. Love of stepped pyramids, massive blood magic, bizarre but victorious military operations ...
Also, Aztech seems to become Neo-Thera more and more. Love of stepped pyramids, massive blood magic, bizarre but victorious military operations ...
Blood magic is supposed be dark and evil and very, very bad. unfortunately SR4 kinda watered all magic down into a soupy, bland, generic "unified" mess.
QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 30 2013, 06:42 PM)
Blood magic is supposed be dark and evil and very, very bad. unfortunately SR4 kinda watered all magic down into a soupy, bland, generic "unified" mess.
One man's mess is another's utopia. *shrug*
QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 30 2013, 08:42 PM)
Blood magic is supposed be dark and evil and very, very bad. unfortunately SR4 kinda watered all magic down into a soupy, bland, generic "unified" mess.
Bull, the Toaster doesn't have a setting as dark as you want things. 
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 30 2013, 11:34 PM)
Bull, the Toaster doesn't have a setting as dark as you want things.
Bah. Bad guys are supposed to be BAD. You need dark to contrast the light. (And in between, get plenty of grey). Blood Magic, Insect Spirits, and Toxic Magic are all areas that are supposed to be VERY powerful, but very BAD.
QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 31 2013, 04:57 AM)
Bah. Bad guys are supposed to be BAD. You need dark to contrast the light. (And in between, get plenty of grey). Blood Magic, Insect Spirits, and Toxic Magic are all areas that are supposed to be VERY powerful, but very BAD.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa now?...
There's light in Shadowrun?
QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 31 2013, 04:57 AM)
Bah. Bad guys are supposed to be BAD. You need dark to contrast the light. (And in between, get plenty of grey). Blood Magic, Insect Spirits, and Toxic Magic are all areas that are supposed to be VERY powerful, but very BAD.
Yeah, this has been eating at me for ages. Blood Magic is bad enough that Dunky put out a
1 million bounty on blood mages openly in his will, and noone said shit. Same with toxic shamans.Some shit is inherently bloody bad, and if anything some of the newer (in terms of release date) magical traditions should have been added to that list.
Blood Magic thins the veil between the physical plane and the plane where things lurk that will kill everyone. It is not, by itself, evil, but it is extremely selfish and short term gain to use it. Carefully used, it is not much more of a problem than regular magic though (only thread magic is truly safe). And some bads have already crossed over - Shedim, Imps, and Wraiths - and at least one came as a direct consequence of one dragon's selfishness and arrogance.
Toxic magic is changing the plane we live in into something we cannot live in. Same problem, but the destructive potential is more immediate.
Insect spirits, being invaders, are the plainest threats of all.
Toxic magic is changing the plane we live in into something we cannot live in. Same problem, but the destructive potential is more immediate.
Insect spirits, being invaders, are the plainest threats of all.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 30 2013, 07:20 AM)
Fall of a Dragon: The 'easy' way to use it is to USE it. All of it. The entire chapter. For reasons unknown, Lo purposefully hired small runner groups and unconventional merc groups instead of one huge merc army. Why did he do it? We don't know. We know he did. That's everything but an engraved invite to YOUR runner group to be in on the fight. Pick a side, and your runners can be right there. Duking it out with all the stuff in the chapter. I'd duck alot from the adult dragons but it'd be an intense knock down drag out fight. It'd also let your runners feel like they were --apart-- of some of these huge mega sized events happening.
How many runners can say they actually helped in the killing blow of a great dragon? (( How many would admit it?))
YMMV. A lot. This is exactly the reason why Harlequin and Dawn of the Artifacts completely fell flat with the groups I played them. Nobody knows. The level of powers openly displayed by NPC makes it obvious that the PC cannot achieve anything significant. They're not playing a part, they're spectators. The players cannot understand the reason why they're there, since the gamemaster and the author don't know either (to be fair, Harlequin does actually give a reason for runner to be involved ; it's just that "It's a cultural thing that us immortal elves do." equally fell flat as an explanation).How many runners can say they actually helped in the killing blow of a great dragon? (( How many would admit it?))
This is like having the PC flying a WW2 aircraft to bomb a single factory in Hiroshima at 0730 on August 6th, 1945, and then see another aircraft dropping a bomb that raze down the entire city.
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2013, 01:57 AM)
Didn't Aztech purge the Gestalt's remains and have them flee to MCT's Unit 13?
There was an intent during the third edition to downplay blood magic at Aztechnology. In Corporate Download, only a small number of blood mages were supposed to remain within the corporation, most of them hiding from the management purge after Oscuro's demise. There still was a mysterious player with a hidden agenda, only not relying any longer on the use of blood magic to advance his plan. I don't remember anything about MCT Unit 13, but in Loose Alliances, the head of the Apep Consortium was a former Aztechnology blood mage that departed.Of course, few people pay attention to details (especially those who doesn't fit their views), and Aztechnology was too good as an enemy, so gamemasters kept having Azzie blood mages around. Corporate Guide officially brought back the blood mages. There an elite military unit of blood mages in War! and other things that means the blood mages status within the corporation has been restored.
QUOTE
to be fair, Harlequin does actually give a reason for runner to be involved ; it's just that "It's a cultural thing that us immortal elves do." equally fell flat as an explanation
In my experience, Harlequin II is received much worse, and that's despite the players actually having a purpose there - to kick Harle's ass into action. However, running around with an all-powerful NPC always winking at them made most players feel ... unnecessary. Which is about the worst thing a GM can do. And which is what all of the chapter is leading up to, Pepsi.
QUOTE
How many runners can say they actually helped in the killing blow of a great dragon?
How many players would rejoice at having done -10 HP damage on an enemy and then stood by to watch a vastly more powerful NPC finish the battle in auto mode?
QUOTE
Of course, few people pay attention to details (especially those who doesn't fit their views), and Aztechnology was too good as an enemy, so gamemasters kept having Azzie blood mages around. Corporate Guide officially brought back the blood mages. There an elite military unit of blood mages in War! and other things that means the blood mages status within the corporation has been restored.
Yeah, you're right. I tried to foget that crap from War!. Sometimes, the authors don't spend much attention on the details either, though the blood magic/azzie connection seems to be popular demand also.
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2013, 10:09 AM)
In my experience, Harlequin II is received much worse, and that's despite the players actually having a purpose there - to kick Harle's ass into action. However, running around with an all-powerful NPC always winking at them made most players feel ... unnecessary. Which is about the worst thing a GM can do. And which is what all of the chapter is leading up to, Pepsi.
I think you're missing the point of 'Being a part of said event' and 'being the hero of the world and the biggest and baddest person in said event'. Your team isn't supposed to be the ones in a fist fight with Ghost walker, but you can be part of the event and help to influence the out come.
It's not that the events are broken, as much as how you're looking at YOUR PART in them. *shrugs* our groups don't save the world on a weekly basis. We're not the Avengers. Being part of the events makes it feel like you're in the world and a part of what's going down though. That's pretty big, in and of itself.
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2013, 10:09 AM)
How many players would rejoice at having done -10 HP damage on an enemy and then stood by to watch a vastly more powerful NPC finish the battle in auto mode?
To be fair, it was the other way around. The enemy was whupped and tore up and almost dead, but the killing blow was handed to metahumanity. So you very well COULD have been the one that put that final HP damage on the great dragon.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 31 2013, 01:15 PM)
To be fair, it was the other way around. The enemy was whupped and tore up and almost dead, but the killing blow was handed to metahumanity. So you very well COULD have been the one that put that final HA damage on the great dragon.
The difference between 'handed to' and 'taken by' is the difference between players and spectators.
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Mar 31 2013, 03:30 PM)
The difference between 'handed to' and 'taken by' is the difference between players and spectators.
And I reiterate. Being part of something doesn't invalidate it. You can be a part of the battle with out being the biggest baddest guy on the field or 'saving the day'. Shadowrunners aren't meant to be super heroes. If you want to be the one that stands up to Loki on top of Stark Tower, you need to be an avenger. If you want to pull shadowruns and be parts of things above your total control. That's Shadowrun.
I mean the stereotypical shadowrun is a group of runners, hired by a Mr Johnson, to make a run against a corp asset, being used as deniable assets. You don't run the Megacorps. You often are mislead about what your mission is actually for and if you're caught, those that hired you never heard of you. The entire premise of the game is that you're not on top of the world, but towards the bottom swimming with sharks that could gobble you up at the drop of a hat.
Most every chapter in this book has options for shadowruns in and around the events happening. Stuff like, the Dodger chapter, not so much but those aren't thick.
It's looking like many people are saying "I dont' get to kick Sirrurg out of the sky and rip out his spine.. so there's nothing for me to do!" or "I don't get to single handedly put an end to the war in Bogata, so there's nothing for me to do! or "I can't grab Ghostwalker by the tail and ride him like a surf board so I'm just watching!" Would you be IN the fight with Ghostwalker and Harle? Not if you're smart. Could you be doing things all through Denver as the build up is happening? Hunting down leads, trying to stop some of the killing. Trying to spring the dragon that was locked up. (Rumor has it that this will actually be a mission in the next season?) Such as that. Do you get to stop the Dimi-gods? no. But you can affect the story as it's told and --be a part of the story- as it's told. Your runners won't say "I was the one that killed Ghost walker last year in his fight with Harle" but they could say "our team put a stop to one of Puck's plans to kill a second jet liner full of passengers, during the rampage" or "We were the ones that smuggled Frosty into the city and kept her alive long enough to get to Harle to put a stop to the battle."
There's plenty to do, and be involved in these events with out single handedly saving the world or ruling the event. That sort of stuff is in different games.
QUOTE
I think you're missing the point of 'Being a part of said event' and 'being the hero of the world and the biggest and baddest person in said event'. Your team isn't supposed to be the ones in a fist fight with Ghost walker, but you can be part of the event and help to influence the out come.
You realise this makes players extras in this? The people who also were there? Which is decidedly NOT what this game is all about? Much like a novel about a guy who also was present at the battle of Helm's Deep (but didn't really do much besides mash some orks) would be boring, a game where players can watch in awe as history happens is ... a bad game.
QUOTE
There's plenty to do, and be involved in these events with out single handedly saving the world or ruling the event. That sort of stuff is in different games.
It can be handled better than the authors of the Game Info to the crap chapters of Storm Front want it. You can do intelligence missions where something crucial is discovered, you can do before- or after-battle stuff ... the key is that in your story, the players are the central element and not some all-pwerful scripted storyline NPC or a battle where players can watch the GM rolling insane numbers of dice against himself.
QUOTE
It's looking like many people are saying "I dont' get to kick Sirrurg out of the sky and rip out his spine.. so there's nothing for me to do!"
No. It's people saying "The only way to use this as a run hook is to have my players either watch NPCs duking it out ot having them kick Sirrirg out of the sky and rip out his spine. What a load of shite."
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2013, 04:09 PM)
In my experience, Harlequin II is received much worse, and that's despite the players actually having a purpose there - to kick Harle's ass into action. However, running around with an all-powerful NPC always winking at them made most players feel ... unnecessary. Which is about the worst thing a GM can do. And which is what all of the chapter is leading up to, Pepsi.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 31 2013, 08:15 PM)
I think you're missing the point of 'Being a part of said event' and 'being the hero of the world and the biggest and baddest person in said event'. Your team isn't supposed to be the ones in a fist fight with Ghost walker, but you can be part of the event and help to influence the out come.
It's not that the events are broken, as much as how you're looking at YOUR PART in them. *shrugs* our groups don't save the world on a weekly basis. We're not the Avengers. Being part of the events makes it feel like you're in the world and a part of what's going down though. That's pretty big, in and of itself.
To clear up things, by "Harlequin II", hermit was rather referring I think to the Harlequin's Back adventure (I guess you could label the story arc on Harlequin feud with Ghostwalker as "Harlequin III," instead of what was proposed at some point as Harlequin's Gambit and never was carried out). But we were originally discussing this in regards to Storm Front chapter "Fall of Dragon."It's not that the events are broken, as much as how you're looking at YOUR PART in them. *shrugs* our groups don't save the world on a weekly basis. We're not the Avengers. Being part of the events makes it feel like you're in the world and a part of what's going down though. That's pretty big, in and of itself.
I can't speak for the other, but I never meant PC should take down a dragon. I said they should "achieve something significant" and "play a part." The musical metaphor of playing a part, and not just being a part, has a sense: if you fail, it should be noticed. If the PC are dead when they should deliver the coup de grāce to Alamais, nobody will notice because they are dozens of other mercenaries around at that point. It'd be somewhat telling if the only significant thing that could be achieved in this story was to win a fistfight with a dragon. We both agree that Shadowrun PC shouldn't do such thing.
You consider this means my expectation of significant achievement cannot be fulfilled. I consider this only means "Fall of a dragon" is not a good story.
If it actually gave a reason for Lofwyr to hire an army of mercenaries and shadowrunners, like securing Alamais lair and preventing his drakes from dispersing and fleeing, while the great dragons open the way and engage the opposition, then yes, a single team of runners could achieve something significant, like preventing an Alamais follower from escaping with a precious artefact, finding data on the bank accounts Alamais used to fund terrorist organizations, or killing an Alamais drake they've been encountering all along an epic campaign. But if that's something I, as a GM, had to come up with, then the author only did half his job, and I have actually to undo a part of his work.
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2013, 04:54 PM)
You realise this makes players extras in this? The people who also were there? Which is decidedly NOT what this game is all about? Much like a novel about a guy who also was present at the battle of Helm's Deep (but didn't really do much besides mash some orks) would be boring, a game where players can watch in awe as history happens is ... a bad game.
It can be handled better than the authors of the Game Info to the crap chapters of Storm Front want it. You can do intelligence missions where something crucial is discovered, you can do before- or after-battle stuff ... the key is that in your story, the players are the central element and not some all-pwerful scripted storyline NPC or a battle where players can watch the GM rolling insane numbers of dice against himself.
No. It's people saying "The only way to use this as a run hook is to have my players either watch NPCs duking it out ot having them kick Sirrirg out of the sky and rip out his spine. What a load of shite."
It can be handled better than the authors of the Game Info to the crap chapters of Storm Front want it. You can do intelligence missions where something crucial is discovered, you can do before- or after-battle stuff ... the key is that in your story, the players are the central element and not some all-pwerful scripted storyline NPC or a battle where players can watch the GM rolling insane numbers of dice against himself.
No. It's people saying "The only way to use this as a run hook is to have my players either watch NPCs duking it out ot having them kick Sirrirg out of the sky and rip out his spine. What a load of shite."
I disagree. Contributing to an event or being 'part' of an event doesn't make you the extras. The game you're playing in does revolve around you and your part of the world. You just don't get to be Superman or Thor. You can still make a difference and do your shadowruns, complete your jobs, help people, or not.
There are big things happening in the world and when you have things like Mega corps and Great Dragons, your PC's don't get to take them down left right and center. The focus is smaller, more personal. "Your contribution" to the big events. Not you dominating the big events.
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 31 2013, 05:06 PM)
To clear up things, by "Harlequin II", hermit was rather referring I think to the Harlequin's Back adventure (I guess you could label the story arc on Harlequin feud with Ghostwalker as "Harlequin III," instead of what was proposed at some point as Harlequin's Gambit and never was carried out). But we were originally discussing this in regards to Storm Front chapter "Fall of Dragon."
I can't speak for the other, but I never meant PC should take down a dragon. I said they should "achieve something significant" and "play a part." The musical metaphor of playing a part, and not just being a part, has a sense: if you fail, it should be noticed. If the PC are dead when they should deliver the coup de grāce to Alamais, nobody will notice because they are dozens of other mercenaries around at that point. It'd be somewhat telling if the only significant thing that could be achieved in this story was to win a fistfight with a dragon. We both agree that Shadowrun PC shouldn't do such thing.
You consider this means my expectation of significant achievement cannot be fulfilled. I consider this only means "Fall of a dragon" is not a good story.
If it actually gave a reason for Lofwyr to hire an army of mercenaries and shadowrunners, like securing Alamais lair and preventing his drakes from dispersing and fleeing, while the great dragons open the way and engage the opposition, then yes, a single team of runners could achieve something significant, like preventing an Alamais follower from escaping with a precious artefact, finding data on the bank accounts Alamais used to fund terrorist organizations, or killing an Alamais drake they've been encountering all along an epic campaign. But if that's something I, as a GM, had to come up with, then the author only did half his job, and I have actually to undo a part of his work.
I can't speak for the other, but I never meant PC should take down a dragon. I said they should "achieve something significant" and "play a part." The musical metaphor of playing a part, and not just being a part, has a sense: if you fail, it should be noticed. If the PC are dead when they should deliver the coup de grāce to Alamais, nobody will notice because they are dozens of other mercenaries around at that point. It'd be somewhat telling if the only significant thing that could be achieved in this story was to win a fistfight with a dragon. We both agree that Shadowrun PC shouldn't do such thing.
You consider this means my expectation of significant achievement cannot be fulfilled. I consider this only means "Fall of a dragon" is not a good story.
If it actually gave a reason for Lofwyr to hire an army of mercenaries and shadowrunners, like securing Alamais lair and preventing his drakes from dispersing and fleeing, while the great dragons open the way and engage the opposition, then yes, a single team of runners could achieve something significant, like preventing an Alamais follower from escaping with a precious artefact, finding data on the bank accounts Alamais used to fund terrorist organizations, or killing an Alamais drake they've been encountering all along an epic campaign. But if that's something I, as a GM, had to come up with, then the author only did half his job, and I have actually to undo a part of his work.
I disagree with this too. The Authros of Storm Front wrote the chapters, they're there to inspire and give you the option of being a part of them, or hearing about them as the world is being prepped for SR 5. It's not ann "Adventure book" in that you're handed 20 adventures to run. It gives you the events and yes, you as a Gm look at the events and decide if you're going to have your groups be a part of them or not, and if so, what part. High or low. It leaves the option open. Yeah. GM's have to do a little work. To be honest I skimmed the 'stats' section in the back because most every chapter easily has 20 to 50 runs you could think up with out half trying or going for anything handed to you. Stuff you tailor to your group's nature, the characters, what kinda jobs they like and want to do vs 'here's an adventure, shoehorn your group into it'. Types.
I dont' think this book was supposed to have any stats in it. That's what a few of the authors have indicated if you read back through all the pages. Then when it turns out there were to be some stats and stuff it was added on quick at the end. It was supposed to be all story and fluff.
I'm aware MANY gamers don't like the fluff and love the crunch. 20 books of Guns and they'll want 21. I'm the other way around, so a book like this that's mostly fluff is great, as it gives so many options on what to do and how to use it. I get much more use out of books like this that show you things going on and laying out the world, than an adventure where you run it once and you're done.
QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 31 2013, 02:57 AM)
Bah. Bad guys are supposed to be BAD. You need dark to contrast the light. (And in between, get plenty of grey). Blood Magic, Insect Spirits, and Toxic Magic are all areas that are supposed to be VERY powerful, but very BAD.
Sorry if this is off-topic (I'll put it into a different thread if needed), but looking over the list that Bull's picked out, I've never gotten the impression that any of these three veins of magic have ever been "acceptable". Granted, I'm not really familiar with how they're described in editions before 4/4.5 (I've read the Aztlan book but that's about it), but to me it's always seemed to imply "blood magic, bugs and toxics are REALLY REALLY EVIL and the only reason we gave them mechanics was so GMs could stat them out without breaking our own magic system". Was there something I missed in a book somewhere? Not trying to disagree, Bull, I'm genuinely curious.
(edited because I was randomly skipping words mid-sentence)
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 31 2013, 11:08 PM)
I disagree. Contributing to an event or being 'part' of an event doesn't make you the extras. The game you're playing in does revolve around you and your part of the world. You just don't get to be Superman or Thor. You can still make a difference and do your shadowruns, complete your jobs, help people, or not.
There are big things happening in the world and when you have things like Mega corps and Great Dragons, your PC's don't get to take them down left right and center. The focus is smaller, more personal. "Your contribution" to the big events. Not you dominating the big events.
The key word here is "contribution". That is, giving something that adds to a larger whole. In this case, the player wouldn't feel they're adding anything. There's no visible difference between what Lofwyr can do alone and what Lofwyr and one hundred mercenaries and shadowrunners can do. As you said it yourself, even those the GM who read the book don't know why Lofwyr hired them.There are big things happening in the world and when you have things like Mega corps and Great Dragons, your PC's don't get to take them down left right and center. The focus is smaller, more personal. "Your contribution" to the big events. Not you dominating the big events.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 31 2013, 11:15 PM)
I disagree with this too. The Authros of Storm Front wrote the chapters, they're there to inspire and give you the option of being a part of them, or hearing about them as the world is being prepped for SR 5. It's not ann "Adventure book" in that you're handed 20 adventures to run. It gives you the events and yes, you as a Gm look at the events and decide if you're going to have your groups be a part of them or not, and if so, what part. High or low. It leaves the option open.
If that chapter mainly result in either leaving GM uninspired, or unwilling to have their group be a part of them, or choosing to design their own adventure and finally playing a shitty game with dissatisfied players, then it's difficult to call it a good product.Shadowrun is role-playing game. The ultimate purpose of every book ought to be helping either the gamemaster and the players to play and have fun. It can be stories, background, plots, adventures or stats, to be directly used during a game or intervening at an earlier stage of either character or adventure design.
It happens that authors forget this part, and turn wannabe novelists instead, handing us useless trivia and accounts of their favorite NPC. That's not to say that every RPG short story or novel is inherently bad: they can provide great background and ambiance elements. But this rarely happens by random chance, and most often requires the author to know what he's doing. The debate could be opened on books that are a pleasant reading but ultimately useless for actual playing, but this is more theoretical question than anything else (I can't think of one examples at the time... SR books either were not so good to read, or have at least a minimal use for playing, besides the actual as novels who were sold as such).
QUOTE
The debate could be opened on books that are a pleasant reading but ultimately useless for actual playing, but this is more theoretical question than anything else (I can't think of one examples at the time... SR books either were not so good to read, or have at least a minimal use for playing, besides the actual as novels who were sold as such).
Another Rainy Night would qualify, I think. It should have been sold as a novella, like Neat, instead as an adventure like 99 bottles.
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 31 2013, 06:54 PM)
The key word here is "contribution". That is, giving something that adds to a larger whole. In this case, the player wouldn't feel they're adding anything. There's no visible difference between what Lofwyr can do alone and what Lofwyr and one hundred mercenaries and shadowrunners can do. As you said it yourself, even those the GM who read the book don't know why Lofwyr hired them.
If that chapter mainly result in either leaving GM uninspired, or unwilling to have their group be a part of them, or choosing to design their own adventure and finally playing a shitty game with dissatisfied players, then it's difficult to call it a good product.
Shadowrun is role-playing game. The ultimate purpose of every book ought to be helping either the gamemaster and the players to play and have fun. It can be stories, background, plots, adventures or stats, to be directly used during a game or intervening at an earlier stage of either character or adventure design.
It happens that authors forget this part, and turn wannabe novelists instead, handing us useless trivia and accounts of their favorite NPC. That's not to say that every RPG short story or novel is inherently bad: they can provide great background and ambiance elements. But this rarely happens by random chance, and most often requires the author to know what he's doing. The debate could be opened on books that are a pleasant reading but ultimately useless for actual playing, but this is more theoretical question than anything else (I can't think of one examples at the time... SR books either were not so good to read, or have at least a minimal use for playing, besides the actual as novels who were sold as such).
If that chapter mainly result in either leaving GM uninspired, or unwilling to have their group be a part of them, or choosing to design their own adventure and finally playing a shitty game with dissatisfied players, then it's difficult to call it a good product.
Shadowrun is role-playing game. The ultimate purpose of every book ought to be helping either the gamemaster and the players to play and have fun. It can be stories, background, plots, adventures or stats, to be directly used during a game or intervening at an earlier stage of either character or adventure design.
It happens that authors forget this part, and turn wannabe novelists instead, handing us useless trivia and accounts of their favorite NPC. That's not to say that every RPG short story or novel is inherently bad: they can provide great background and ambiance elements. But this rarely happens by random chance, and most often requires the author to know what he's doing. The debate could be opened on books that are a pleasant reading but ultimately useless for actual playing, but this is more theoretical question than anything else (I can't think of one examples at the time... SR books either were not so good to read, or have at least a minimal use for playing, besides the actual as novels who were sold as such).
I guess the main point where we disagree is at the inspirational part. You said 'If that chapter mainly results in either living the gm Uninspired or unwilling to have their group be a part of them"
I pointed out that most every chapter in the book could give loads of inspiration. Does it type out 50 adventures or shadowruns per chapter? No, but the information and shadowtalk is presented in such a way that countless shadowruns can be created having to do with the chapters at hand. There were a few that were clearly flavor but the rest were chock full of possibility.
I'm sorry if you can't find inspiration there.
I wouldn't call it a failure of the book or writers. I found plenty. Most every chapter gave me enough tto plan months of Shadowruns if I so chose.
QUOTE (Freya @ Mar 31 2013, 04:51 PM)
Sorry if this is off-topic (I'll put it into a different thread if needed), but looking over the list that Bull's picked out, I've never gotten the impression that any of these three veins of magic have ever been "acceptable". Granted, I'm not really familiar with how they're described in editions before 4/4.5 (I've read the Aztlan book but that's about it), but to me it's always seemed to imply "blood magic, bugs and toxics are REALLY REALLY EVIL and the only reason we gave them mechanics was so GMs could stat them out without breaking our own magic system". Was there something I missed in a book somewhere? Not trying to disagree, Bull, I'm genuinely curious.
(edited because I was randomly skipping words mid-sentence)
(edited because I was randomly skipping words mid-sentence)
Not really. But 4th edition really dialed back the "these are EVIL BAD NASTY" factor of all of these, as far as the fluff and fiction goes. Look at the one comment about blood magic being "just a power source" earlier in the thread. And there was a strong push at one point by a segment of the fanbase and a couple of the authors to actually make some of this stuff playable by PCs, but fortunately that never happened. AI's, Vampries, Free Spirits, and the like also fell into this category, and never should have become PCs either, IMO.
I'm a firm believer that some toys should never leave the GMs toybox.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 1 2013, 01:21 AM)
You said 'If that chapter mainly results in either living the gm Uninspired or unwilling to have their group be a part of them"
QUOTE (Nath @ Apr 1 2013, 12:54 AM)
If that chapter mainly result in either leaving GM uninspired, or unwilling to have their group be a part of them, or choosing to design their own adventure and finally playing a shitty game with dissatisfied players, then it's difficult to call it a good product.
I'm not discussing here Storm Front in it entirety, but only the chapter titled "Fall of a Dragon" (as shown by the use of the word "chapter"). Then, I did not said that it was impossible to find inspiration in there, but pointing in that last part of the sentence that using it as a source of inspiration could lead to a bad game and dissatisfied players.Not all inspirations are good. I've seen enthusiastic gamemasters clinging on an idea they saw and running a terrible game. I did it myself way too often when I was younger. I consider an author writing fluff has the same responsibility than an author writing rules or NPC stats. There are gamemasters and players outside who didn't master every subtlety of game balance, Earthdawn lore, or Interactive-Narrative Structures. It is also their job to help those people have good time with their friends.
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 31 2013, 07:56 PM)
I'm not discussing here [i]Storm Front in it entirety, but only the chapter titled "Fall of a Dragon" (as shown by the use of the word "chapter"). Then, I did not said that it was impossible to find inspiration in there, but pointing in that last part of the sentence that using it as a source of inspiration could lead to a bad game and dissatisfied players.
Not all inspirations are good. I've seen enthusiastic gamemasters clinging on an idea they saw and running a terrible game. I did it myself way too often when I was younger. I consider an author writing fluff has the same responsibility than an author writing rules or NPC stats. There are gamemasters and players outside who didn't master every subtlety of game balance, Earthdawn lore, or Interactive-Narrative Structures. It is also their job to help those people have good time with their friends.
Not all inspirations are good. I've seen enthusiastic gamemasters clinging on an idea they saw and running a terrible game. I did it myself way too often when I was younger. I consider an author writing fluff has the same responsibility than an author writing rules or NPC stats. There are gamemasters and players outside who didn't master every subtlety of game balance, Earthdawn lore, or Interactive-Narrative Structures. It is also their job to help those people have good time with their friends.
If you choose to design your own adventure and play a shitty game... isn't that on you for your design? The writers can't do it all for ya man.
I'm --not-- saying that the book is perfect, but there's plenty you can do in the Fall of a Dragon chapter with out it being a shitty game. It's up to you to make it fun, like it would be with any shadowrun/game.
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