Not true, but certain products gets more love than other products.

There's been a group of people claiming that the writers should look at a map. That they made Bogata have a port and be on the ocean. I read pretty close. I'm not perfect, but I found no instance of it. Which makes me wonder if those being hypercritical didn't misread it, and assume such, then go off on rants about how bad it is. There's been a number of posts both here and on Jackpoint.

So I read the chapter close and didn't find them. Which makes their snotty remarks... well. Wrong.

If it's in the book, I'd appreciate a page number. I'm ----not----- infallible and I might have missed it. But if it's not in the book, people should find other things to complain about, because that one's not true. That's all.

I didn't find any in Storm Front's chapter on that area/war. I read close when it came to the navy's and what not. There are mentions of stuff in the "Gulf of Azlan" which is the gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific.. and the FMC landed at Cali, but nothing about the navy landing at Bogata or ports there. The only thing I can figure is the part about the navy being close to the cost in the gulf, using the destroyers as missile platforms for cruise missiles.

Edit: When the FMC comes in, at the very end. They land at Cali, but travel across land to get to Bogata to start their police action. It even talks about stuff they ran into on their trek. But it states specifically they don't land AT Bogata.

But yeah, I think they were mentioning stuff from WAR!, which is supposedly where the whole "Bogota is a port city" is supposed to come from.

A quick gloss through WAR!, and so far, nothing has immediately jumped out at me.

*Nods* Could be.... but the more I read about him, the more I think he's just a lieing prick. So he probably just lied.

I thought that might have been it, so I've been very careful to restrict my posting to Storm Front.

I did a word search for Port in War. I found alot of support, and report and sports, and portable, and even a number of gun ports.

There are a few mentions of ports, in write ups for generic navy people in armies, or generic ships. But none of those are indicated of being IN Bogata. Those very fer references, are clearly in the write up's for generic troops/ vehicles.

Again. I could be wrong. I've ---not--- read all of War. but I didn't find it on a word search in the PDF.

However, I DID find a mention of the nuclear submarines others have gone about.

...but they're subs that are being built by Aztlan.

In San Diego.

...

...as a proud Californian, I'm PRETTY darn sure that San Diego is nowhere near South America...and nothing in WAR! states that it is.

So what the hell, people?

EDIT: I should also note that the PDF I have lists it's copyright as "2011", and if from what I understand correctly, WAR! was originally released in Dec 13th, 2010. So either my PDF is actually any updated copy that had some errors fixed (not all of them, "guerrilla sells" is still in my copy) or they somehow ended up releasing the PDF after the dead-tree version was released.

I'm pretty sure the seaports of Bogotá are the derivative of a derivative of something, just took on its own life. Only thing I could trace back to is submarine smuggling in Bogotá. Was it that there are naval combat rules in War! for a basically landlocked setting?

While War's main setting is in SA, alot of the stuff in the back are generic stats for army, navy, etc.

Aztlan covers alot of area and alot of it is coastal. Even if Bogata itself is not. 90% of the worlds trade travels by ship at some point.

San Diego is, however, Aztlan territory according to the SWA. Or did you think they'd be building nuclear submarines right next to the state they're actively at war with?

As for War, I cannot find any references to Bogata being coastal or having a port...

lol I didn't think they would.

It seems that maybe, those that were so amused, may have not read too closely and assumptions may have been made.

Or.. it's worded differently and I just haven't read it yet.

I mean hell, I just up a scathing review of WAR! that goes on about how in the Game Information chapter, they specifically say that they aren't going to stat nukes because of how they're just plot devices, and the guy proceeds to bitch about how they stat nukes anything.

In my copy...well, the sidebar on nukes in question SUGGESTS the Damage Code for suitcase nukes, but even then, I'd hardly call that full on stats.

So seriously, I'm starting to think I got a completely different PDF after the fact in comparison to what everyone else got on it's first day of release.

That's how it should be.

Just curious, but how long should we do that? I'm all for giving folks a chance to read the book. But.. a week? Two Weeks? Month?

As per drivethru: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/86596 it was never updated. I suppose the 2011 copyright was in there right from the start. Also, there was a lot of ill will leveled at War! so I would not be surprised if some of the accusations are exaggerated. Details aside, the book has major conceptual sticking points.

There is, in the ships PDF at least (a submarine port to be precise).


They took control of San Diego a long time (ingame) ago.

So are you citing the ships they were building in San Diego, as being in "Bogata" because they were in the war book? Or are you saying there's mention of a submarine port in Bogata in the deadly waves book? I checked Deadly Waves for mention of a port in Bogata, or a Submarine port.

Found neither.

If I'm wrong please supply a book and page?

The only remote mention of anything of the like in the Deadly Waves book is on p. 18 in the Cartel Courier entry:



...so yeah, way too vague to mean: "There are submarine ports in Bogota".

That's a simi-submersable, and can be used in the Bogotá River. No mention of a sub base or port.

Nevermind the fact that the thing isn't exactly primed and ready to start slinging nukes...so yeah guys, what the hell?

Can we get back to discussing Storm Front? Any further discussion about War! and the Bogota setting should be moved to the thread about that book.

Lemonade. As Hardy says, if life gives you lemns, make lemonade. Or rather, plots. The forgotten shadowtalk (his mistake, as an editor) became a plot. Widely out of character portrayals of Plan 9, riser and FastJack became this plot.

I''m curious, was it confirmed anywhere or is it speculation?

The part about the empty poster has been confirmed by Jason. The Morbus Schletz plot looks a lot alike. widely off characterisation has been a problem in SR4 since the current authors took over with War.

Okay, finished reading. I like that the books wraps up a few plots, but I don't like that for a few of them essentially nothing has changed (War outside of Atzlan hunting parties' success), or the change is rather silly (a megacorp losing ground globally thanks to a single failed product). What I especially dislike about the way late 4e tells the stories, and what in part could be fixed by returning a larger number of shadowtalkers, is how narrowly defined the plot is. Previously, it has always been "we know this and this for sure, but those are consequences; we can guess the reasons, but we have no way to really know", which left a lot more breathing space for a GM.

Also, the pet peeve of mine: of the employees of Roscosmos of Evo Gagarin Mars Base, not a single Russian or Japanese name.

*sigh*

I crams a lot into too little space, but ignoring the FASAnomics aspect, the individual settings have their merits...and they are more likely to go at each others' throats than reunite, grand conspiracy or not.

Why? Most regimes that would massively resist have already bwen written out. No more Saxony, no more Elf and Troll Kingdoms, no more Dwarf Duchy, no more Anarchist Heaven ...

I don't quite get why. I mean, if I want Dunkelzahn's death to be perpetrated by my conspiracy group, I can always change it. But I really prefer to know the cannon thruth and decide according to it.

San Deigo went o Aztlan around ... man. 2040-ish? Maybe earlier than that. When the old US of A pulled out of California, they moved the fleet from San Deigo, and soon after, the Azzies rolled north and grabbed it. It's served as their west coast naval base ever since. It didn't used to be that risky to use, since the only "bad guys" around were the Californians, and they're not much of a threat, but with the PCC's expansion, now, it's risky. The western fleet's relatively small, with the primary Azzie fleet being the eastern one, to keep an eye on pirates and the CAS... which traditionally had a crappy fleet as well. The CAS started a naval arms race with the Kity Hawk class of carriers... we'll see how it winds up.

It doesn't come up much since Shadowrun's never bothered with "These two armies fight!" rules, but people have always wanted more information about the military stuff, so, it dribbles out here and there. James has wanted to do a book about just military foo for a while, but he's out of action for a while to handle real world stuff, so, I don't expect there to be anything major on that front for a while. (But, if people really want a "Militaries of teh 6th world" book, talk to the Catalyst crew and make the desire known.)

But, drifting off topic there.

Back to Dirty Tricks! Aztlan was victorious, but they lost a *ton* of men and material between Bogata and Sirrurg, and still have the famine to deal with. It remains to be seen how well they can come back from this. Aztechnology's doing better, but they're not exactly shiny either.

For more information on San Diego under Aztlan, see Safehouses.

The Bogotá River flows southwest for 30 kilometers, before Tequendama Falls, a 132 meters drop. The waterway to reach Bogotá City from the sea would rather be Magdalena River, which can be navigable up to Honda, about 100 kilometers northwest of Bogotá, or possibly Girardot, about 75 kilometers southwest of Bogotá. However, parts of the Magdalena River are only a few feet deep, even during the wet season. Flatboats would be a far more logical choice than semi-submersibles (whose purpose of discretion, depth issue aside, would be kinda defeated if used to navigate a river ins straight line for 1,500 kilometers, while flatboats could at least blend into the normal traffic).

And, honestly, I would be surprised if I was to learn that anyone among SR authors actually did the research before writing Deadly Waters, or even afterwards to find a way to retcon it.

Not trying to harp or anything, but 30 Kilometers is far enough to 'serve as a way out of Bogata' which was the only thing claimed, for the boat in question.

The overall point, was that there were some posters making jabs at the writers, and telling them to look at a map, that there's no coastal port or submarine base in Bogata. Laughing and bringing it up multiple times as a way to criticize the writers, and that their criticisms seemed unfounded, as the point of contention is not in the books.

Storm front (The book we're talking about here.) has a large chapter on Bogata and the SA war. It never mentions a coastal port in Bogata nor a submarine base. "War" Didn't mention one either. It mentions San Diego. Nor did Deadly waves cite a coastal port or submarine base. The absolute closest you can possibly get is one shadow talk referencing a small simi submersible boat that could sneak you out of Bogata. And, the river goes both ways if I'm not mistaken. You say it goes 30 miles southwest before hitting the falls. It also goes 150 Km North East into Villapinzon. Either 30km South West, or how ever many km North East would smuggle you out of the city proper. Unless the city stretched for 180km, roughly 111 miles wide.

Either way, I have not as of yet found instance of this 'coastal port' or 'Submarine base'. If there is something to this effect in a book. I'll require the book and a page number. I'm not perfect. I may have missed it.
Till someone can prove it was actually written and perhaps not just 'misread' though, perhaps people should stop taking jabs at the writers over it? That was my point.

So the semisub built for the sea travels up and down a little creek to ferrry people between Bogotá and a waterfall? You're really trying too hard, Pepsi.


You might want to look at a map yourself. You can claim things as often as you want, it'll not become more convincing.

Semisubs as described have way too much draft to work in small rivers. Even ordinary river craft fail here, and they're built for that. There is no ship-capable river out of Bogotá. It is little more than a creek, really. Check it out on GoogleMaps. You'd be lucky to not run a little rowboat into ground there, let alone a much larger vessel that is 90% draft.

That just don't fly. No matter how hard you try to spin this.

And keep your straw men to yourself, really.

The Bogota River is about 30 meters wide and its average depth is around 3.5 meters, though this can vary depending on season. It got past 6 meters in the past, at which point it flooded the surrounding areas.

In the case you didn't understand, the whole "docks of Bogota" has been used as a mockery aimed at CGL writers by people who disliked the products they put out in the last few years. It is considered as a good example of the mistake and lack of documentation that have been found in those (though in my opinion it's far from being the worst case of it). Exaggeration being an integral part of the definition of mockery.

I, for myself, reread this thread to look at where people did actually refer to this point originally.
The first one, as you may notice, was posted nearly three weeks before Storm Front actual release. The book actually doesn't describe the war as computer-generated propaganda either. The second one is not even remotely suggesting this might be in a book, but only referring to an implausible situation as a way to ironically say something (and even if there were dock in Bogota, that dumpshocker still would live pretty far away from the city to go fishing there).

Maybe we can agree on this: The "seaports of Bogotá" have taken on a life of their own, to the point where even people who are aware of its origins have to look up just how solid the connection was and where exactly it occurred. Somebody who has not been involved in the old discussions could be easily lead to believe, that there was a full description of sea ports in War! not Deadly Waves. Yes, it points to bigger issues (I would cite the lack of a map feeding into suspicions) but might as such without the proper context be seen as unfair.

Stuff like this appears to be an oversight, the severity of which is often depending on the person judging, hence the pet before the peeve. Such an oversight might indicate a lack of background knowledge and doesn't necessarily have to be caught by the author of the piece, but it would be nice if it is caught in the editing process. Nonetheless I'm pretty sure for the majority of Catalyst's customers this isn't an issue, if the book is mostly okay.

River travel. You're the one that keeps trying to put the sea in Bogata.



A river, that is more than 100 miles long, before you get to the falls.



It's said they're used to smuggle things. Smuggeling things into and out of a war torn city seems pretty profitable. But that's not their only use. That's one possible use. The fact is, that some people might want to get out of Bogata with out getting shot.

Exactly --one-- Shadowtalk comment mentioned that you could get out of Bogata on one.

So yes. "Getting out" of Bogata on one is perfectly viable. You get on the boat. Ride it either north... (( Which as pointed out, stretches miles and miles)) Or south... which it goes at least 30km before getting to the falls.

Then.. you know Hermit... you get out of the boat.. and take other transport... because you're clear of the war torn city. It's not like you gotta ride the thing, jump the falls and try to make it to the ocean. It just said they could get you out of Bogata. And they can.

Either way, it's NOT a seaside port as some have claimed, nor is it a "Submarine base". lol



Really? Can you cite your source for the port in Bogata please? Book and page. I'll wait.



Please tell me where to find the draft on a fictional sub specificly created to smuggle things. I read on page 18 of Deadly waves. Couldn't find the draft. If you could point me to that information, I'd be glad to debate it.



The boat in question is small and built for smuggeling, but again. For the life of me, I can't find her draft or measurements. If you can point me to the correct page. I'll take a gander.



I guess it depends on how you want to describe it.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_F8IPOz1W5Uo/S-wB...cuenca+baja.JPG

And

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q...b4UX6EYTfUzrk_2

And

http://static.elespectador.com/archivos/20...b180805fa86.jpg

Looks like bit more than a creek to me. And.. I didn't name it the "Rio Bogata"... you know. The Bogata River....



Right.. because noone would dig it deeper around the major city. Right? No dredging to allow better water travel. Right? That's just too hard a concept? Around a Major city? It's so hugely polluted (( Well today)) That eating from it is nigh on suicide.

The pictures I found seemed to indicate that at least parts of the river, are very much able to maintain boats.

Another small fact, the cool thing about simi-submersables, is... they can also come up and travel like normal boats if needed. I.E. if the water depth drops. The write up on the one in question is small. One paragraph. 8 lines in one column. Some stats and 4 instances of Shadowtalk. It says nothing of draft. Nothing really what so ever, other than the boat in question was specifically built to be a smuggler vessel that's been worked on for almost 80 years.

I'm sorry, but a small simi submersiable smuggler boat, does not place Bogata on the ocean. Nor does it mean there's a 'Submarine base" or "Submarine port" there. The books just don't back your claim.



It's not my strawman. Some have made the claim the writers need to look at a map and speak down to them because of a supposed Coastal port in Bogata, or a submarine base. As best I can tell, this is a total fabrication that's simply not in the books. So, wouldn't that be -their- strawman? As it's an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation? I can't find notation of any submarine base, or Bogata being called a coastal port city in the book. I have repeatedly said I may have missed it, but noone else seems to have found it either.

...ok, I guess I phrased my post weird then.

So to be clear: yes, I did know that San Diego is now apart of Aztlan. My intention was not to question that.

Hell, the first thing I did when I started planning for my first SR campaign was to look up what SR- California was like (and subsequently saddened to discover that my hometown was now completely submerged in polluted water). Something tells me that they don't hold Comic Con in San Diego anymore.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways though, while I can't speak for Pepsi Jack, the point that I've been trying to get to with the whole submarine ports in Bogota is:

It's not the WHY I'm contesting, it's the WHERE I'm more curious about.

Because yes: I get it.

I GET the controversies and missteps that have been plaguing CGL regarding their SR products. I GET why people would get torqued off over the products not getting proper editing, be it for grammatical and spelling errors, or the glaring issues of not doing your research, or not playtesting the crunch material before sending it to the printers.

...still though, the question still remains: WHERE did the joke about submarine ports in Bogota come from?

The joke can't have just materialized from nowhere; all jokes reference something, and I just want to know WHERE the reference of "submarine ports in Bogota" come from.

The aforementioned mini-sub used as an escape from Bogota, I don't find to be a convincing enough starting point for the joke. Even with all of the evidence presented here, if you look at the line itself, the context is vague enough to not necessarily mean escaping directly from Bogota the city...and even then, there is nothing there that directly suggests "sub ports in Bogota".

If you could just direct me to even the thread/posts that first originated the joke, that'd be fine too.

You don't really understand much about how ships work, do you? Especially this kind of ship. Trying to be smartass about it makes you look less, not more, intelligent. The only thing these ships have going for them is that they're hard to spot at sea. To get out of Bogotá, you're much better off using your feet, really.


With common sense and the ships it's based on. Common sense: if a ship is mostly underwater and can hold passengers and an engine, it'll have more draft than the flatbed, light craft necessary to not get stuck on sand banks, drowned wood or rocks in this river.

Really, you are wrong. You will always be about this. All your walls of text, puffing yourself up and demanding only makes you look more like a man-child. Semi-submersibles will never travel in and out of Bogotá. A writer screwed up because he wrote sloppily, did no research and didn't think things through. All your antics will not change that fact.

-------------------------------------------------------


Anger about the sloppyness of Bogotá descriptions - in every product it has been mentioned in since War - mixed with amusement about this newest blunder when Deadly Waves and a heavy dose of sarcasm. "Bogotá got a seaport now! Next book, it'll be on the moon!" that kind of hyperbole.

I understand ships just fine. They float in or under the water. ((Well Subs are traditionally called boats, not ships))

I understand if you're trying to get out of a war torn city, where two governments are shooting at each other and through some rather inhospitable area around said city, that walking, might make you a bit of a target. And you'd get pretty tired. You may want a manner of safe or sneakier travel.

Thus you might hire a smuggler, who smuggles items (( Food, Ammo, Guns, troops) INTO A war torn city.. to smuggle YOU out...

And once you're "Out" of the city. Said Smuggler is very likely working with someone who either has land travel TO the river, or air travel. Which is alot safer, once you get away from the city and all the guns and rockets and missiles and stuff.

So yes, very honestly, getting 30km away from the city would likely work very well. And if it's done covertly, say, in a simi submersable boat, helmed by a smuggler. That might be a decent idea. But remember your bucket. Apparently the boats are so small, they don't even have heads.



So in other words, You don't actually know the draft for the fictional boat, built for the single purpose of smuggeling things. Again, it's so small it doesn't even have a head. I think you might be invisioning more than is actually there. It's got what, pilot of 2, and costs about as much as a sedan? It's not THAT big a vessel Hermit. You may be thinking a big ship carrying cargo containers. I'm seeing something that's low slung and can cram stuff below decks to smuggle in to a place in the dark.



No. Really I'm right. Untill you can cite a source for Bogata being coastal, or there being a submarine base there. I'm totally right. The small smuggling vessel from deadly waves doesn't change that. I even showed you a pic of people riding down the river on a boat. It can be done. And Smugglers tend to be pretty good about knowing their routes, (( Or they don't stay smugglers long)) They know where the sandbars are to dodge them. And they know when said sandbars move. Etc. It's kinda their job. If they get stuck on a sandbar, they're gonna get caught and well... not smugglers any more. lol



Ahhh..... more direct insults. And yet... I'm the one puffing.. and I'm the man-child.. when you're the one repeatedly dropping yourself to personal attacks. Ok.



You're talking about a fictional world where dragons fly through the skys. Where the human mind can plug into a virtual world through a datajack. Where trolls and orcs and elves and dwarves walk side by side with humanity. Not even to mention Technomancers who can enter the matrix with out tech (And even animals in the middle of a jungle that can do the same) and mages that can throw fireballs. And yet.... a river getting dredged out for trade, or a boat not being as big as you think it is, is beyond the scope of possibility? Really? That's what you're hung up on? One mention in a pdf, of a small smuggeling boat, smuggeling people out of Bogata, a boat that has been built specifically for smuggling and has almost 80 years (in game) of modification and revision to let it do.... what it does.... has some how transformed Bogata into a coastal port city with submarine base?





Which in at least this case, seem to be 100% absent from the books.



And yet, again, in this instance. Can't be found to be cited.




Which says nothing what so ever, other than a smuggeling boat, specificly built to purpose, and so small it doesn't even have a bathroom, can sneak people out of a City, beside a river.



That's the thing. It seems to be fully fictional Hyperbole and Sarcasm, not based in fact.

And --that-- is my only problem. If you're gonna rag on the writers. Do so for something deserving. Don't make up something to try and make them look stupid. Claim that they've made bogata have a seaport, or submarine bases, when the writers didn't do that.

I'm not saying the writers are infallible. There are things I don't like. I'm sure there are other things you might not like. Why just make stuff up then complain about it? Because as best as can be 'proven' here. That's all that's happened. Alot of Sarcasm and hyperbole, not based on things from the book.

It's like a train wreck of laughs and facepalms.

...more like facepalms at no one willing to give a straight answer.

(and if this turns out to just be code for "Be a good little forum poster and use the damn Search function like you're told", then yea, get off the goddamn Snark wagon)

Can we please go back to Storm Front?
We can already make very tiny submarines. Unless there was some specific in the book (which I don't have) I don't see why it couldn't be something like this:
http://englishrussia.com/2006/11/08/russia...lest-submarine/
http://www.aqvwc.com/images/trailer.jpg
http://www.seabreacher.com/seabreacher-j
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D41kjoiq8Bo

Anyway. Has anyone an idea what will happen to the infected?

Really?? Ships don't float on water??




Because it's small... and custom built to smuggle things... and getting caught would defeat that purpose.... and the book said that's what it does? Sorta like Drones that can fly around and carry machine guns, or little ports in your head let you jack into the matrix? In the universe it's written for, the writers have said they work.

It's a small boat. It goes through the water. Bogata is a huge city by a river. One of the most polluted rivers in the world. The concept that a small boat could navigate said waters, to get you 'out of the city' is not far fetched.




This is the original point. It's not a strawman. You need to look up what that means. You're just saying it to try and dodge backing up your position. Because you can't. Because your entire position is made up.




It -is- the topic, as I'm the one that pointed out the above is false, and that people shouldn't be making fun of the writers about it. You can't support it, so you're dodging and trying to obfuscate with something else. A small boat in a river.




Which you cannot prove, as you don't have measurements for the draft. You can't disprove a fictional vehicle with out said stats, based on the fact that... it's a boat, in a river. The writers said it works. Just like they say drones work, or the matrix works, or dragons, or magic.

All you've said is "It's a small creek! It can't handle a boat!" I've shown you at least three pics of the river that very well could.




Then give me the page in a Shadowrun book that claims the coastal port or the submarine base. Show me it's there. I've looked. I cannot find it. I've asked repeatedly for someone to show it to me. Noone's (( at this point)) been able to.

Because it was made up.



No, not only after several iterations. --At all--. Until you can produce a Shadowrun book and page where we can find these mysterious Submarine bases in Bogata, or it being a coastal port, it's just made up. The fact that it -was- just made up, doesn't make it a fact that can't be disputed. lol.

I've said repeatedly. I'll say again. It might be in the books somewhere that I've missed. If so, please show me and I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. But you've been asked repeatedly and haven't backed your claim. I don't think it's there. It's just snotty remarks by someone that misread the San Diego part, thought it was Bogata, and ran with it, being snotty.

I haven't gotten that far yet. Two kids and a wife.. ugg. Responsibility cuts into my free reading time. lol I'm looking forward to that chapter. I like the... concept of the infected. I'd never wanna be one, but I suspect very very few of them 'want' to be. The concept is nice and dark and scary though. That it could just happen to anyone (( under different cirumstances)) Makes it that much scarier.

Perhaps (crunch-wise) it's more dangerous to be an Infected?

(hell, it'd be a mechanic that I'd be all for: making constant Willpower checks every month, and if you fail, you'll find yourself eating the faces of your teammates)

Would Troll faces be extra crunchy? Or Elf Faces like veal? Dwarf faces, kinda leathery? Orc faces.. um... I got nothin'.

@Pepsi Jedi



Guys please calm down. We don't need this thread locked or worse.

I agree. No point in it.

As for Puck.