To begin with, everyone from Red Tanya to news reporters speak about the Great Dragon society with full confidence. I was under the impression much of the dragon politics, much less the specifics of the dragon culture, were rather obscure. More than just that, Frosty's writing on some of the Great Dragons' actions in detail that has no reason at all to be available to anyone except the Greats themselves ("this dragon sent these of his vassals to manipulate those to do that...").

Then, seriously, Hestaby not being able to multitask or has "her dragon instincts taking over"? A Great Dragon? No, really? What's next, a Great going off to hunt, forgetting to protect his lairs? Oh wait! Alamais did just that; and Hestaby failed to adequately protect her domain as well (having to actually participate in wiping out some measely hundred of metahuman mercenaries).

Hell, reporters feel at ease asking a Great Dragon uneasy questions like "How do you justify this disparity between what you have spoken about [and what you've done]". Can you imagine anyone in their right mind asking questions like this of a Great in the previous editions?

The whole epic battle account is rather silly, simply put: for example, one of the Greats masters an army of runners just sixty kilometers from his lair, and the other apparently does nothing to prepare; the civilians living between the staging area and the lair somehow miss dragons flying to and fro and the massive troop movements; an ambush on a column is not followed up by harrying attacks while the confusion rules, and a Great Dragon's minions use improvised magical mines instead of actual minefields that they have available (or a multitude of otherwise possible options). The chapterette generally feels like a campaign account written by someone without any idea of military tactics (with terms like "it was all very systematic and strategic" and regiments switching sides in the middle of the combat), and minding that at least four Greats are involved, that seems especially underwhelming. All in all, the important parts would've fit on a page or two, not ten, and it certainly could've gone without a final charge upon a downed Great with a following melee half an hour long.

Finally, runners seem to be used as all-purpose enforcers by the dragons. An inter-dragon conflict? Bring runners on both sides. Claiming a hoard of an exiled dragon? Runners! It's not like the deniable assets aren't particularly trust-worthy and neither trained nor intended to be used in large formations in open conflicts, and it's not like the Greats have their own corpsec divisions and army regiments that could've been used instead.

Yes. The proverb on never ever dealing with a dragon was not born out of nothing, and slighting a dragon, much less a Great, has always been a death wish: going down with nice sauce.

But Lofwyr didn't. He amassed troops for a couple of days with no reaction from Alamais, and no reaction from the locals living between Alamais' compound and the staging area. Minding that his forces were irregulars, that is completely out there.

So why exactly spend his spirits prematurely, then? Why not deal a finishing blow to a confused foe (which is a solid part of any ambush tactics)? Why engage own combatants?

Why use the real ones? Why use grenades and human technology if you're a goddamn dragon supremacist?!

Is that what made Alamais engage a bunch of runners in melee combat instead of turning them to mush with a single spell with Stun drain?

Not using their direct servants might be a part of the etiquette, but Lofwyr used his lesser dragons and his drakes in a fight. If there was any reason to use those and not use his metahuman underlings, it wasn't pointed out.

Because she's a being fully capable of decapitating you with a single sweep of a hand, and massively intellectually and magically superior? Even other humans are often threated with awe and respect, why not a thousand-year old Great Dragon?

How was attacking the mercs after they regrouped after an ambush attacking a stronger enemy than those very same mercs in the confusion directly following the ambush mentioned? Those were the very same combatants, except momentarily disorganized and demoralized.
The strategy used, with unattended minefields and whatnot, would be good for stalling the enemy waiting for the reinforcements to arrive - but Alamais was expecting none.
Oh, and Alamais' mercs wouldn't have turned had he not attacked them himself - how is that something a being with an intellect vastly superior to human and thousands of years of experience unable to predict?

Because, as established, the magical ones were both more potent and less visible. And he wouldn't be dirtying his claws with the inferior developments of a species inferior to his own enough that'd he order his own soldiers of this species destroyed.

So, if we presume Alamais wasn't above using metahumans and their tech, why not order a couple of merc tank and jet regiments? Subcontract from some government if need be. Using the wealth he just abandoned in his lairs left unprotected instead?

This returns us to the initial question, then: why wasn't the SK army used? Why use faulty and overpaid irregulars specializing in stealth and sabotage and unsuited for large-scale military engagements instead?

I was pointing out how they knew 'now'. As to how they got the info in clutch of dragons, I pointed out in one of my other replys just now (( Just posted it, so you hadn't read it when you posted this. )) That the Dragon Civil war was going on for over a year and killing tens of thousands of Metahumans. That's huge motivation to seek out and obtain said information



Well the poor people living there didn't have scout forces or Satellite look downs. How much do you know about what's happening the next street over, unless you're there, much less 100KM away? They saw the column and got the heck out of the way. Until they saw it, it might as well have been on the moon.



It's not that they were unable to predict it. It's that they didn't care and it was below them. Racisim on the surface of it is... well it's just stupid. Yet there are racists the world around. And a KKK Member MIGht shut his mouth and duck his head and walk out of harlem with out getting himself killed, but if that hate is enough, he's still going to do/say things that.. yep get him killed.

With dragons, they really --are-- that powerful and their hatred was huge. Combined with the fact they'd been eating almost 300 humans per day for a year, uncontested with out any reprecussion and the fact that they had a great behind them and thought they could win, edged up their arrogance.

Yes, arrogance is stupid but powerful people are the most prone to it. They hated metahumans and thought that they were not a 'threat' so even if they DID turn on the dragons, they'd just kill them too. They also knew they had that flight of 10 adult dragon's 'In reserve'. If not for the 3 greats jumping in, that'd have ended the fight.



Yeah they were likely carrying alot. And had alot in their vehicles, and likely had drones delivering ammo from the rear through out the battle. Or actuall physical runners (( Spirits would be good for this)) Delivering ammo to the front lines so they could stay engaged.

Because the Greats were the generals. Generals whom, as it was easily seen in the end, could have just walked through ALL those defensive forces with out effort. I pointed this out in my post. It was a "Show" For Metahumanity.

Alone, Lo, Lung and Ar.... How ever you spell her name. could have shreaded all those adult dragons with out effort. Lo killed two... just pointing his finger at um. SPLAT.

"Dragon Rules" or "It was a show" both explain this.



while your 'distain for metahumanity' does hold a little. I still say if you have access to weapons, you use um. Especially if you're fighting from an entrenched position. Those magical beads had to be hard to make, so you can only make X number of them. (( X being... how ever many the dragons could make)) You can easily buy Y ammount of normal mines, and you do so too, so you don't have to make as many beads, or... to overlap and make your defense even stronger.

Remember the conventional minefields were in place. Spirits and dragons dropped the beads where needed. So the conventional mines defended certain areas. The glass beads were 'mines on demand' where and when you needed them.



Yeah. Apparently he was hurt so bad or drained so much from his fight with Lo, he had no more magic to summon.

Think of it... like a main battle tank, out of ammo with one tread blown off. It's still not easy to get into the thing. You can run up and pound on it with a crow bar but it's toing to take a long long long time to get through the hatch. The tank can spin it's main gun and hit people or floor it on the track it has left and run over people it can reach, but can't 'get away' or use the main gun (( Dragon magic)).

Also give Lo a bit of credit. He wouldn't have stepped away if Al was in a position to do more, than he 'did' in the book. Poor Al (( ha!)) was done for. He just took a long time to die.

Yeah that was a mistype. I edited the post. Thank you. Tens of thousands of metahumans.

As for them being movers and shakers. Well they were. And they were powerful and feared. But.. an enemy that' 'can hurt you' is different from one "Killing tens of thousands of metahumans."



It's like.. the US has a nuclear arsenel. But we've only used it twice. If the US suddenly started nuking countries left right and center, it's a lot different. We'd be a much bigger and more in your face threat.



Well, like MUCH of the shadowrun information we have. It's given 'in character' in the books. And thus, is their thoughts or beliefs. Frosty gives her conclusions and speculations based on the information she's gathered. Sometimes she's wrong. Being a said expert, though, she researches before she talks. (( and can also get emotional and shut up by Bull or Jack))

As for her inside sources. She does. She talks about them all the time. "The people I've spoken to with in ___" or "Those working for ___" or "I went to __ and researched for 3 months into the moves and plans of ___" Now, her conclusions could be wrong, and she could be getting false information or even just misinturperting it, but as the 'expert in the field' she's generally accepted to have looked into _____ before she speaks on it.

Remember in Clutch when Fastjack gets pissed she doesn't pitch in more than she does? It's because she was out gathering information for this.



It wasn't that they were incapable of protecting the lair. It was that they were purposefully attacking the forest and what not. Hestaby never had huge standing armies. The defense of Shasta was "Who would be stupid enough to attack her Primary lair" Well. Al found some idiots that stupid and paid them enough to try. She came down and ate their faces.

Sure.. it's a bit beneath her, as a Great, but she didn't spend billions on mercs to defend the mountain. Her presence had been enough up to that point.



Not at all. If you've spent a year fortifying your base, setting it up to repell an attack, you dont suddenly empty out your base and move all your defenders 100 KM from your base. That would be abandoning the tactic you've chosen for a year, to try and jump the gun. You don't 'Venture out past the wire' if your entire battle plan is one of defense of your base and resisting the siege.

Also stated in the fiction, the dragons started to arrive with the Mercs. Not "All mercs, then all dragons". The Drakes and Greats got there pretty soon too. All three greats were in camp hours before they deployed.



I ask agian. How would they know they were there? They were dozens of KM away.

I can't even tell you what's happening a block away unless I walk over there. Now, 1000 mercs and a bunch of dragons.. that makes some noise and some notice, but still. If it was 2 or 3 KM away, how would you know?

You'd know when you saw them coming. Then you'd get out of dodge.



Well dragons wern't awake at the time of the Maginot. lol

Al had magic, a huge number of spirits, and a large number of strong adult dragons on his side. He was all Theodin, "They will break on these walls like water" with a bit of 'And then we'll eat their faces and send them running"

The dude was also a bit crazy. He didn't run. he thought he could win. Lo showed up with two other greats. Even if you take all the 'adults' away and all the mercs and spirits away..... Al, vs Lo was a 'simple' battle and Al got his ass handed to him. He didn't run, when there was Lo, Lung "I'll kill you with a magic laser from space and point of my finger" and Alressh(Sp?) All three. he was a bit nuts. Maybe he got a piron disease eatin' all those humans or something, but he thought for sure he could win the fight. Clearly he couldn't win it against Lofwyr alone, much less Lo+Two more greats. He was fooling himself from the start.

But you've yet to find one I haven't been able to explain. (( I do state straight up... I could be wrong!!! I could be misreading motive and purpose. Only the writers can say. But the explinations to the points I've brought up, could fit.))



I'm sure it wouldn't be easy. "Hard" Still beats 'Certain death at the claws of the Dragons you were supposedly working for" If you witnessed dragons who were supposed to be in your side, killing your buddies over and over and over.... you might hunker down behind something hard and make that white flag out of your sock to wave on a stick and try and yell and come to terms. (( Though Likely it was done via radio and comlink. If nothing else, projecting AR up into the air "HEY WE'RE GETTING HIT BY THESE DRAGONS TOO!! THEy'VE TURNED ON US!! WE WANT TO BE ON YOUR SIDE!!" It was also stated that not all were trusted and an elf even tried to stab Rage in the back.



And again, I point out. Racism between humans makes no sense. But countless people have killed and been killed over something like their skin color. Even more have been killed on which flavor of imaginary guy you 'beleive in'. It's stupid. It makes ZERO Sense. Why on earth would the color of someone's skin matter to someone else? Most especially to the point of killing them? It's MORONIC. Just as moronic as killing someone because they belive in a different 'god' than you do. Yet, we've seen. Millions and millions of people have died for those stupid reasons.

Dragons. (( I kinda hate to say it)) kinda sorta have a bit of a point with their own superiority. Doesn't make it nice, but they are at the apex of the predator/pray chart. They 'are' better than humans. Smarter, faster, stronger, longer lived, more powerful, etc. We just out number them a few million to one. To Dragons, the fact they're 'better' than Metahumanity is pretty much a given. Up to and through the point that they exile a great, for suggesting that they work WITH Metahumanity... and yet, only lock up another great, who killed tens of thousands of metahumans, and was responsible for the humans creating specific 'Anti-dragon' weapons.

Is it stupid to attack your own forces? Yep.. but when you see them as stupid hamburgers marching around, you don't really 'care'. The dragons in question were the 'worst of the worst' dragon supremacists, and had been feasting on 90,000 humans. Their arrogance was not smart, but it was clouded with hate and just how intense that arrogance (( Rightful or not)) had entrenched in their minds.



Well it was towards the end of the fight. They might have passed (most of) their ammo to the forces heading inside, it was the injured, or taitor forces that were remaining out side on cleanup.



Helix was sitting at the mouth of the cave complex. Out of the fight.

Street Rage came in with his axe. As for that... well that's kinda his schtick. He's a raging Troll Street Sammi that uses axes. In that bit he didn't say others didn't use guns. But that they charged in to kill him. Al still used his breath attack and thrashed around. At that point they'd been fighting dragons for a day and seen those horrors and wanted some payback. Again, I imagine if they HAD ammo they used that before running up to hack at the dragon, unless they're the type that LIKED Hacking on things. (( Like Street Rage. That's his thing))

Personally... I wouldn't want to get that close to a Great.. but after fighting for that long, I can see the want to finish it "With your hands'. I'd probably have used all my ammo first though. lol



Usually yeah, but at this point Al had been "opened up" by Lofwyr too. His front looked like hamburger. The "Armor" was breached. It was his gooy center that was hacked at. And even the gooy part was tough enough to last for another half hour.



Naa not really. he was on the ground, broken and tore up, gory and dieing. He just thrashed around and shot off his elemental attack 'blind' if you will. It wasn't like he was going all high tactics. He was "Swatting at the flys buzzing around him" with what ever he had left. he wasn't 'Up and fighting". Lofwyr had beat him down to the point he could just thrash around on the ground as he was attacked.

it's a testiment to how strong the greats are, that even in his dieing throws, he took a number of battle hardened metahumans with him.

Sort of like.. if an elephant is on the ground dieing.. and you walk up to it, it might lash out with it's trunk and crush your chest, and kill you, even though it couldn't even roll over. Dragons are much bigger, great dragons much much bigger.

And alot more motivation when they started killing people by the tens of thousands.



But even a KM away, you likely wouldn't know... 3 KM away you'd pretty much definatly not know unless you went right over there. And if you did... you know, the mercs and dragons might not let you leave. The forces in question were what, 60 to 100Km away? That's like knowing what's going on two or three citys distant. You think the people whom had been prey of dragons for a year, to the point 90,000 had been eaten would have went to peek at the huge group of dragons and mercs?



Arrogant to the point of stupidity, yeah. Kinda. Again, racsim in the real world is stupid. killing someone over their imaginary god is even more stupid, but millions have met their death over it.

Dragons... kinda have a 'point' with their arrogance. It's not nice but 1:1, you gotta admit they are stronger, faster, smarter. It's a simi-deserved arrogance.

With THESE dragons, you're talking about the extremists. In humans, they'd be the kind to strap on bombs or fly planes into towers. But they're dragons.



I'm not saying their actions were smart. I'm saying they saw themselves above the humans to the point that they just didn't care. Again these are extremists. What they were doing was stupid. It could only end one way really. With them dieing. But in their extremism, they thought they'd win. Just like some moron terrorist extremist might think his god will protect him. These dragons were "SURE" in the "DRAGON RIGHT TO RULE AND DO WHAT EVER THEY WANT" to the point they didn't see common sense.

I mean even if Lo didn't go in there, sooner or later the powers that be would have said "You know.... 90,000 was one thing, but they've killed 500,000 now.. or 1,000,000 now.. or 10,000,000 now.. we gotta put a stop to this..... " and just Thor shot, or nuke um.

I'm --really-- not saying Extremists are smart, but in their own lil world, it makes sense to them.



Ehhh not 'Supply lines'. They had runners or delivery from the vehicles or the rear. which was still with in sight of the front lines. Probably out of range of your standard battle rifle, but not so far back that the trip took more than a minute or two, depending on conveyance.

Again, if you're dug in, you're defending. Not extending out huge distances from your defensive perimeter. And... those three Great Dragon's were 'In the Rear with the Gear'. Are you going to move THROUGH the enemy lines, and try and take out supplys with Three Greats standing there? Likely not. the two that DARED move towards the greats, were instantly vaporized. lol.



Probably not.. but are you going to be the guy to bet your life on his Space Laser Magic being out of ammo? You going to be the third dragon to risk being vaporized with the point of a claw?

It'd be like you or I standing in a street, and seeing a battle tank fire and vaporize two guys a few feet from us. just BOOOM And they're a red mist, and me looking to you and going 'Hey man!! How many shells can he have in there? GET UM!!!" and telling you to charge. You're going to look at me and go "FRAK YOU!! YOU GET HIM!! I'm RUNNING"



But in this case, that's the point. The three greats didn't jump in till the very end, and when they did. Poof. Battle was over.
Soo.. they were either playing by Dragon Rules, which allows your pawns to pound on one another, but if the Greats get in it, it's a breech of etiquette... or.... the three greats put on a show on purpose, sacrificing all those people and dragons... for their own (( unfathomable, or at least unknown at this point)) Dragony reason.

if you look up in the thread, when I finished the chapter, in my review, I stated straight up that it seemed like this was all calculated with purpose. Had to be.



They had conventional mines around the walls, because the Dragons could just fly over them. The beads were more 'Deployed as needed' depending on where they wanted metahumans to blow up.



Some of us like the details. It's mostly a Fluff book. Not a 'Crunch' book. You want the story, not the cliff's notes. I rather enjoied the page on page of text. I didn't think it was bland. It was describing the horror of the event in detail. If you just give general descriptions, it doesn't have flash. It doesn't catch you. We all knew the general event. It was the details that make it a story.

Again, you might not like the tactics, but there were tactics used. Up to and including PURPOSEFULLY constructing an attack force that would not work together as well as it could. Lo went out of his way to do that. He's a genius, he didn't do it by accident. It was pointed out in the book, that this was a silly way to form up an attack force. Yet the Dragon that took control and formed a mega in a second on the matrix did so. It had to be on purpose, if even the metahumans were figuring it out.

I think part of the problem, is that the Dragons, the Greats anyway, were purposefully fighting this battle, in a way where most of their forces died. And that seems counter intuative. "Why fight a battle you yourself could end in a few seconds?" Well, when you ask that question, you're at the point of pausing and going "Maybe they had a REASON, to fight this battle, in this seemingly stupid way"

Al's forces had to know they were out classed. They had one great and Lo had three. The greats were powerful enough that when Lung or Aresh finally got into it, they each killed two adults in seconds, effortlessly and routed what.. 9 others. Poof. Just like that? Yet, they fought due to their fanatisisim in their 'cause'

Lo, likely could have done it all single handedly, but he didn't. he went through the motions of assembling this.... very strange force, to make this attack, and he stood back and watched till the end. Where in he swept in, put claw to ass, then didn't even dignify Al with a Dragon death. He either shunned Al so hard, that he 'let' metahumans kill him, to add insult to injury... or he planned it that way and let the metahumans kill him, for his own purpose (( Like making Metahumans think they had a chance of taking down a Great, and that not all Dragons were 'evil".

So while the tactics might seem 'strange' they were clearly done for a point. We're just not sure what was going on in their heads yet. We just have clear indications that SOMETHING was, and there was reason.

They gotta save something for SR5 after all.

They're Super Duper Supernatural dragons. They have different priorities than we do. The explinations arn't that far off. On one side you have Dragon extreamists/ surpremisists who have so much hate and surperiority complexes that they've killed and eaten almost 100,000 metahumans in a year.

On the other side you have three great dragons coming to kill the first group. They're doing it publicly in a way that makes it look like Metahumans did the 'hard part' and 'helped' and 'earned the glory' and... if you think about it.. "Payback" to forstall the rest of humanity going "Ok you killed the bad guy, but we still lost 90,000!!!" Lo and crew let the battle play out to look like "Metahumanity passed judgement and carried out the execution for those crimes". Pretty smart when you look at it that way. Even if Lo could have just killed them all.



Depends really. Lo's forces and mercs infront of you. Al and his dragons behind. Where to run, where to run? Some did bug out, but if you saw half your unit die to purposeful 'Friendly fire" you might want some payback for your buddies. Also might be looking long term, to the point of "Don't hire THAT guy... not only did the idiot fight or Al, but then he ran away like a little girl when going got tough!!"



The old saying applys. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts Absolutely. History is littered with tyrants who think they can take on the world and win. They all die in the end. Usually by violence. Seldom to Tyrants live to old age. Is Arrogance stupid? Sure. Is it extremely common? Yes. Is it even more common the higher up the power structure you get? Yep.

Being a Tyrant and eating 90,000 humans isn't too smart. Especially when humans have Thor shots and nukes... but Al thought he was above humanity. The Dragons with him, believed in their power and supremacy.



You can charge while firing your weapon. Turn on the TV. Switch channels till you find someone shooting a gun. Watch for about 30 seconds.

See?

Seriously though, you can run forward while shooting. You say he made no mention of anyone used guns. he made no mention of anyone using melee weapons other than himself either.



Sure there is. You're totally not factoring in hate or revenge. They all wanted to be the one to deliver the death blow.



Yeah, breathing is hard!! Joking aside, As I pointed out, he was down, couldn't get up, could only thrash around and use that last intrinsic ability.



Yes there is.

"Not allowing him to get up, Lofwyr pounced on Alamais and bore down on him with multiple swipes of his claws that tore into his flesh. Alamais’ face, neck, and chest looked like tenderized meat after Lofwyr ceased his blows on the wounded dragon. I stopped counting after thirty strikes. Although Alamais was still alive, he was no longer in any condition to threaten Lofwyr, even in Lofwyr’s own damaged condition."

His face, neck, and chest looked like tenderized meat., and he was down and in no condition to threaten lofwyr.

"Alamais did his best to swipe at us, trying to kill us before we killed him. I saw six, including two of my own chummers, struck down by the force of Alamais’ strike."

So he was down, his flesh looked like tenderized meat, and he "Did his best to swipe at us" trying to kill them before they killed him. He managed to strike down 6, but the rest took him out.

He wasn't out cold. He just didn't have the juice left to do much. One burst of breath and he "did his best" to try and hit them. Then they finished him off.



He did though. Lofwyr could have finished him off easily but didn't.

Yes, we can speculate as to why, but it was clear he -chose- not to. So there can be many reasons he did it. Some or all of them might be true. We won't know till the writers tell us. We do know the Dragon Ethical system is pretty skewed. But which ways, are hard to nail down. Again I point to the slap on the wrist Sirrung gets, compaired to stripping of every worldly possession, land, and exile for Hestaby for what would seem to be a much much lessor crime.