Do you realise how hard it is to have a teaparty when you're 20 meters long and don't have opposable thumbs?

*snrk* Well done.

Depends, telekinetic powers?

Also, I'm reminded of Tiny Tina, who now strikes me as a completely valid Shadowrun Character build, horrible family history and all!

*quick google search later* Hey, she seems like my kind of crazy

I'm currently trying to figure out how to build a viable Inquisitor Ravenor.

Yeah, but why an innate metahuman form? Not obsidimen, not any other? See the humanitycentric agenda of Shadowrun?!

It's a practical form in a world full of human items, for all we know it's just one of their forms. Dragon magic!
Also wasn't there some off hand comment somewhere about enjoying how metahuman sex feels?

True, if they had all taken the form of pixies, they would probably fit into the bank's vault. Think about how much safer they would be in there!

If they turned into windlings I'd quit

Well not for nothing but that many greats in their natural forms would need a huuuge amount of space to get together and talk. They'd be vulnerable to a couple of corps going 'OOPS.. did we accidentally shoot off 10 Thor shots right there on all those giant Dragons? Our bad... Tee hee"

Metahuman form is the 'prominent and prolific' Sentient form on the planet. Turning into metahumans (( Well looking like them and the size)) Means that the greats could meet in any building that could hold 20 or 30 people in a room and talk. Really cuts down on orbital bombardment possibility. (( or other attack possibilities by anyone that could see 10 to 30 MASSIVE scaled creatures hanging around and arguing with one another.

While they could take on pixie form, I imagine the chairs and what not are alot more comfortable if you fit in it. Clothes are a bit easier to find too.

Could work too, don't you think?

I wouldn't trust another dragon to not send someone to eliminate my body while he knows I'm out... Would you?

If I were a dragon, I'd trust in the safety of my lair more than anything else. Besides, Dragons have customs. It's probably bad form to murder other dragons in their laur while holding a council of dragons.

If anything, being in metahuman form when you're all gathered together makes you more vulnerable to a Thor shot. Simply because metahumans are more frail.

Also, hermit, modern-day dragons don't secure their lairs. Ragtag gangs of terrorists or runner teams can easily penetrate if the dragon's not home.

Yeah, because reasons. I forgot.

Only if it's known where you are to shoot. Huge dragons in their natural form that can be seen from space, grouped up 10 to 20 of them sitting around stand out alot more than people meeting in some building in some city that can't be seen into. As we've seen from the party hopping Dragon (Damon?) They can change what they look like in metahuman form. Even their sex. They could all show up at a random building in any city in the world looking like Janitors or harmless teen girls or something, then change to their 'usual' Metahuman forms inside.

Dude, you got the idea about dragons meeting in their astral bodies?

If you believe major players like the Greats aren't under surveillance with any means possible 24/7, I guess yeah, it's possible pretending to be a metahuman might work for hiding for a while for them.
There's just no reason to believe anything like that.

They COULD just go to some metaplane that humanity can't reach . .

You're such a heretic, Stahl.

Let's not forget that the Black Lodge had already hit Lofwyr. Seems like they're being forced to come to the realization that metahumanity is capable of posing a threat to them, and so you can expect them to take that into account.

As for Thor Shots, by taking metahuman form in the middle of a city and keeping people from knowing who you are or what's going on, you radically decrease the chances that they'll even try.

Kharn is a pretty nice guy.

Because Feuerschwinge being downed by the German Air Force wasn't enough of a wake-up call. It needed a thoroughly senseless attack by the New World Order.


Worst babysitting gig. EVER. No wonder he snapped.

Add to that the fact that they have anti-dragon weapons, downed the Destroyer, and that the Black Lodge is gunning for, at the very least, Lofwyr?

His point was, that the attack of pointlessness perpetrated by the Black Lodge wasn't really the wake up call to tell the dragons that mortals are dangerous. That happened years earlier when a few jets downed a great.

My point is this: They now have weapons specifically designed to take out dragons, and have demonstrated that they work. And they know that at least one metahuman organization has the active intention to take out at least one great.

Seems to me a bit more of a wake-up call than the air force taking down a dragon that, as I recall, had just woken up and was in a wild rage.

YMMV. I always had the dragons being aware that people want to kill them. You don't get to be 15000 if you're not an early riser

Wanting to do a thing, and many people/corps/nations with the --ability-- to do a thing, are very different things.

On then! Another review, since I've finished with the book recently.
Read on at your own risk, minimal spoiler tags, because mimes are evil

The first thing to note: I like the artwork. The cover isn't really my taste, but it's still a good piece, even if it doesn't really relate too much to the content.
Inside artwork ranks from 'My eyes don't feel offended, meh' to 'WOW!'.
I especially liked the troll and dwarf on p. 43 and the troll girl (again with a dwarf, how cool is that?) on p. 51. The last one is one of Laubensteins better B/W pictures AND she's cute.
Cool elves on p. 74. Is that Netcat?
Beefy Fastjack on p. 143, if that's supposed to be him Don't really know how I feel about the picture, but in itself it's a cool effect, fits the story.
I need to agree with the others saying that the picture of Slamm-0! saluting on p. 185 is really fine, too!

Second: The meat of the book.
I felt intrigued by the hidden fictions and the topics that Storm Front is dealing with. In general, I think the basic ideas behind the chapters are cool and can be used for great storytelling.
The execution however ... varies in quality, both in writing and plausibility. This has been discussed to and fro, so I'll just summarize my views regarding the chapters.

The intro fiction and accompanying image are great. It feels very Shadowrun. A lowlife down on his luck and a lot of foreshadowing. Syndicate, technomancer (or hacker, I forgot), dragons! Kudos to the writer, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

The Triumph of Aztlan:
While I feel that a strike against The Destroyer is overdue after the direction this particular plotline took, the execution of the story feels lackluster.
Reading it was hard, in part because I didn't recognize my view of the world (which is an entirely subjective point) and also because the plausibility behind the storytelling seems strained. It required a level of suspension of disbelief of me that I wasn't willing to give. There has been a lot of discussion and I don't want to rekindle those arguments, so I'll leave it at that.
but it was a good resolution to the attack.
The surprise attack and additional triumph in Bogotá, where basically nothing happened in the war against trees, felt over the top, though. Not a fan, but then again, the whole 'war' felt forced and pointless. This is not the fault of Storm Front or the author of this chapter, though.

Fall of a Dragon
Hated the chapter. Absolutely. Can't find a good thing anywhere and that includes the writing and storytelling. It's basically an exceedingly elaborate synopsis (thereby defeating its own point) of the dragon 'civil war', followed by an eyewitness account from two unreliable narrators, with both being total braggarts.
The final duel paled in comparison to the wall of text that described what happened before. Very anticlimactic.
Several inconsistencies (materializing spirits dropping killer glass beads of doom, up to dragons having a written language and a lot of their behavior) and violence porn. Not my cup of tea, thank you.

Seattle shakes
I've said it earlier: This chapter is great. I loved it. The Brackhaven intro fiction with foreshadowing for later events was funny when I reached said events, and what happened is just down to earth Shadowrun: Dirty politics and their effect on the streets. Good tie-in for the Missions and me having played and GMed some of those and even using Netcat as an NPC was a big feeling of coming home.
Blown away and a fine wrap of the Missions season.

Lightning in Denver
Meh. Interesting chain of events leading up to (yet another) duel, but Harlequin hulking out felt weird and not at all that epic. The footage of the duel was, again, too vague for my tastes and didn't add much flavor.
Also, Aztlan jumps the shark here, where I could only shake my head in total bewilderment.

Ares trembles
Another meh chapter. Feels inconclusive, with a badly thought out premise and just events piled on another with the sole purpose of having Ares tremble. Things have been said in this thread, I won't reiterate them. YMMV.

Shadow Network
A big editorial boo-boo happened here. The next three chapters are all great in their own way, but it has been stated that they should have been smaller chapters rolled into this one. No further comment, QA-issue.

First among equals
I'm not a Tír Tairngire fan, but I am becoming one more and more with each publication that details the history since Critias started writing it. I don't agree with everything happening there (mostly because of one of my character's personal spats with Jenna, and taking away that story-opportunity with the IEs being ousted ) but the storytelling is plausible, intelligent and gripping in a down to earth way. I enjoyed it. Thanks. Now get cracking on a similar thing for Tír na nÓg, pretty please? (I can give you my notes )

The artful Dodger
Hey big guy! There you've been! Good to hear from you
Interesting speculation about what Dodger has been up to, with a few tantalizing tidbits in shadowtalk comments. Not enough hard fact, like a 1st hand sighting, but still enjoyable. Not sure if I can use this, but a good read nonetheless.

Sleeping with the Enemy
I hate the infected. Ergo: I love this chapter. It's subjective, but it takes them down a notch, torpedoes the infected rights movement and generally makes them more usable. I like Fear the Dark almost as much as I dislike deVries. They represent everything of how I use my vampires in an SR context.

Escaping the Ghost Decade
I honestly can't say if this is a good chapter. hermit has pointed out the inconsistency with Shiawase being that big in the food market in Europe, but Wakshaani has addressed this concern. Other than that: I'm not really a corp history guy and all I can say is that the chapter sheds light on what the three Japanocorps have been up to in a readable, non-facepalming way. I don't want to sound dismissive, but the fact of the matter is that I can't judge it in a satisfactory way because I lack the knowledge and the inclination to do the research.

Fractures
I am totally uninterested in this storyline, sorry to say. The chapter didn't change that, but I'll admit that the information is presented in a way that made me read it through and nodding in agreement. The idea behind it doesn't interest me, but the writer still managed to make me care enough to carefully read it, so I'll say bravo


Now to the ugly parts:
QA issues in several chapters. To be fair, the spelling quality and typo frequency is getting less prevalent after the first two chapters, but the big blunder with the Triump of Aztlan and the chapter that isn't a chapter followed by three chapters that should be that chapter is embarrassing. Again.
And here again my clamoring for a proper table of contents (clickable in the PDF, please) and maybe an index at the end of the book. It's basics. I don't desperately need them in the PDF, but a book should have it.

The game information chapter is just weird. I can't make heads or tails out of it. It feels like the attempt (and subsequent failure) to give the book some crunch, but there isn't any. Just a bunch of adventure hooks, ranging from hilarious to usable with interesting notions about payment. Also some funny stats for great dragons (that probably no one will ever use), a useless spell that appears to be there for the sole reason of explaining a great dragon doing stuff, and copypasta statblocks for no discernible reasons.

My final thoughts on the book may seem harsh.
I think there are some wonderful ideas and also some very good writing to be found in this book, but ultimately, it is not very usable. It is a pure fluff piece with so much stuff that only happens in the background tapestry of my world that I can't use much of it. There is no relevant crunch to be found, and even marketing free 'coming soon' stats for the Entropy spell, Martin deVries and Sirrurg will not change that, sorry to say.
My personal issue with the book is that I actually like fluff books. But usually they bring at least a bit of crunch with them and things that are not '1000 karma runners go up against great Dragons'
I don't recognize a lot of the SR I have grown accustomed to over the years, but that is natural. The writers change and with them the direction. If you like the direction they're taking, you're golden, if not ... tough luck.
Still, I'm happy to see that some of the material strikes my nostalgic heart

4/10, with the usual 1 point penalty for bad editing and proofing.
It's not as bad as WAR!, but it's still worse than Clutch of Dragons.
My recommendation: If you understand German and are interested in the plot lines, wait for the Pegasus release.

As always, the feedback's appreciated. Nothing's better than specific comments (whether they pertain to my individual chapters or not), in my opinion. A section-by-section review beats the pants out of "LOL SHIT BOOK CGL SUX" or something, y'know?

Also, just FYI, but there's a reason things have been somewhat Telestrian-centric in the Tir lately. In part it's because they're the last of the "old blood" clamoring to fill that immortal-vacated power vacuum, but also for...other stuff. That I can't talk about yet. Needless to say, the Telestrians always struck me as kind of a "second tier" power family, kept out of the very top levels of power only by all the hojillion-year-olds running around. Remove that? And it's basically Kennedy time. I wanted to give them more power than one family should have, while not quite actually having them overtly run things. Only time will tell how well that political balance maintains...but "first among equals" wasn't just the title for the chapter, it's basically the ideal that chapter was going for.

And as for Dodger? Well, when I was digging around for LoP, I just realized the guy'd kind of fallen off the Earth and no one had done anything with him, really, since around Brainscan. Since he hadn't been confirmed dead (thankfully), I figured the big book of plotlines, especially with some Matrix revisions just around the corner, was as good a time as any to just come out and say "he's not dead yet!" and try to come up with some reasons he might've been so silent in the shadows for the last decade or so. I'm glad folks seem to be diggin' it, and are glad to see him still bouncing around a little bit.

I second this one. And I second it HARD.

Get to it, you magnificent bastard!

I'll echo Critias in his thanks for the comprehensive review. And I'm glad you enjoyed "Sleeping With the Enemy"; it gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling down in the sub-cockle area of the icy thing I call a heart.

You don't like Martin? He's starting to grow on me....

Just a quick reply to dragons in metahuman form, since I brought it up.

Even before much of the recent bad stuff happened the dragons met in metahuman form in Clutch of Dragons. Halfway through I actually thought, well maybe artwork of metahumans is just much cheaper than of dragons, but the reason could not be so profane. Likely somebody really came up with it as a solution to make a physical meeting between giant animals possible. But there are other options like meeting in astral space, a metaplane is something to consider or really meeting physically under the open sky in some empty corner of the earth maybe under a kinetic shield and massive illusion. Because I'm quite willing to believe that they will take the risk and expenses in order to be who they are. But even if you say no it's too risky and populated areas are too good a shield to pass by maybe have them assume the shape of miniature versions of themselves, so that they can perform the rites, that have been created for dragon bodies and that are central to their culture:


(And I say that even though I can't get the image of a superdeformed Lofwyr out of my head.)

Chibi Lofwyr.

@Critas

That sounds promising. Will Oakforest's new German home play into it, and Tír na nÓg? Did you cooperate or communicate in some way with the German clutch expansion's writers? Will you also have a look at EBM²? They used to be a lot of euro-elf money, but are an obscure reference as can be (and, like Seretech, seem to have been put on a bus).


And I just want to thank you for bringing him back into the game, which I forgot in my review.

@Patrick

Well, it just seemed so ... just painted with a wide brush and then forgotten, except for parts which have been mentioned before. And really, the Congo confederation, that was just ... a bit uncreative, at least.


I don't even mind a certain Americacentrism; I like the American setting, in general, better than the Euro setting, though the latter has picked up since SoE. A maybe more concrete complaint would be transporting the USA into Shadowrun. It's gone there. No heir, no more superpower, it's gone the way of the British Empire. At least, that is the setting's premise (very 80s but so is Shadowrun in general). I noticed for some time now that the NAN are written down (there're several 'American' sprawls fleshed out, and not one true NAN Setting - New York, Seattle, Chicago, Boston, Detroit, De³Ce³, New Orleans, Montréal, Quebec City vs. Denver, Los Angeles, and neither Denver nor LA are really NAN). There also seems to be a lack of ideas to deal with the NAN. While there're some inconsistencies with population density, those can be explained away (especially if you want to have Bogotá and it'S submarine port surrounded by jungle explained away) research with regard to customs cannot be so hard you need to make up bizarre cultures like "efficiency-obsessed Pueblo" from Spy games? There's also just one CAS sprawl, too.
The general idea, for a long time now, was that the UCAS somehow is the inheritor to the Empire USA. It was ... tolerable for many years, but recently this has picked up a new tone - that of "we're an Empire now". And that's just too much. The UCAS is no empire, the UCAS Army is not the US Army, and the UCAS' voice in international matters matters as much as any state's in Shadowrun - not too much. Just ... deal with it, okay? And expand the American setting beyond the UCAS. The Northwest is running out of urbanisations to turn into settings already.
I'm not even saying this is a certain mindset of the authors speaking. It seems, to me, more of a "today plus elvs" approach to writing the setting, just taking today's economical, political and social conditions and putting in a few elves and calling that Shadowrun. It started with SR4's Matrix, exploded in War and Attitude and just went on from there. I'm not only not a fan of that, I think it ruins the setting, which is NOT today + elves, NOT the 1980s + elves, but an established setting with nearly 25 years of internal history (baggage). Barring a restart (which is not viable), new writers just have to deal, even if they're tying to live full-time off RPG writing and hence have a tight schedule writing for many settings at once. Sloppyness like shown in developing Bogotá, the UCAS, the mercenaries, and the "dragon war" just stands out much more jarringly in such a setting than in, I dunno, Pathfinder or D&D or whatever.
And - this is a general statement, not directed at you in particular - writers at CGL, please don't just write "haw haw, stupid bums" stories set in the center of another continent's civilisation again. It just makes the writer look like a dick, especially given the reasons he posted on SR4.com. And do research on the locations you write about. Google maps is easy to use, as is Wikipedia. It takes maybe 20 minutes of your time and makes your work a lot better. I think that's pretty good bang per buck.

A wiki-style lore ressource would also help new writers a great deal. Maybe CGL can strike a deal with Pegasus there, because they just acquired one.


Thanks. It's appreciated, though I can't remember much of your writing swinging that way. It seems more like a new guy problem.

-----

In addition to my review, and with a bit of mental distance to the book, I can also say it illustrates two trends in Shadowrun writing: One fast, sloppy, going for the cheap effects and screw the setting mindset, and one that seems a tad nostalgic and wants to develop the setting more carefully. Guess which I like more, but I see that as an ongoing problem. One way or another, this will have to be adressed by CGL and the Line Developer.

In this case you nailed it. That's what I've always thought about the family since they first appeared in that one novel and now that the IEs are out, they're a real power bloc. I'm eager to see what you have planned with them.


I hope to see more of him in the near future


Oh, I hated Martin from the start. I don't like vampires in general. The thing has been overdone countless times, so having a Blade derivative show up in SR wasn't exactly to my tastes. Having a massacre on cybervampiremonsters in book form didn't really add to the flavor.
I liked what has been done with him in SR4, making him basically the butt of a long standing joke, but seeing him suffer is just more enjoyable for me

Re: the NAN... I pitched an update for every NAN state, including Aztlan, and Quebec, for Dirty Tricks, but didn't get it. A few other parts have been updated, but not all of 'em. The Salish-Sidhe, in particular, are one I want to update, but I'd pitched for the lot of 'em.

As for American-centric, it's an easy one to fall into, especially for me, since I refer to focus on small stories, not big ones. I like knowing a neighborhood more than a city, and staying semi-local is a big help for that. I'm also hesitant to do much in the EUro-side of things since the German line's pretty dang solid and they have their own storylines going on over there. Stomping around like an ignorant Godzilla in their playground would be bad, so, I'd rather not do it. (And since I don't read German, trying to catch up on their stuff is out of my current skillset. Dangit.)

I can work with Asia, however, and I really want to work with Africa some more... the 'Jungle Savages' thing that caught on is shameful.

So many ideas, so few products to get them in.

Well, they usually restrict hemselves to Germany only, because they have made the experience that exactly that happens (James Meiers seems to have been notorious there, what with GeMiTo). Better co-ordination would do wonders there, I think ... and some titles could use a translation, as a web book maybe. BErlin is a great setting, and the RRP is also solid. An abrridged German Settings book maybe, I dunno.


Well, I don't mind writing what you know too much, but if not, do research please (I know you do, others apparently don't). Like Malaysia and Singapore being not the same thing, like horrifically misspelled German and mangled Spanish, like Bogotá ... and not let real-life politics bleed into your writing too much. It's taking from the writing for me, and probably others as well.


Indeed. And there is much material to build on and draw inspiraion, from Nigerian indie movies (bizarre) and exorcism TV shows (even bizarrer) to books like barroco tropical (though I can't find an english translation, which is a shame) set in cyberpunk Angola with lots of ... mystical realism that lends itself well to SR.


*sigh* Yes, the SSC/Tshimshian situation needs a resolution, desperately, but also the Sioux, what happened to them since NAN 2? And the Manitou, what are they up to? What about the Ute, why did they just let themselves be assimilated like that? What of all the minority tribes? How does the PCC integrate their new citizens, all the more since they just absorbed an Anglo Sprawl that has more inhabitants than PCC and Ute put together. And how do the Ute like being a minority in their own country after having fought, died and suffered for centuries under the same conditions?

I still laugh at that. The Black Lodge are So Fucked if they seriously position themselves as open enemies to Lofwyr. He has no metahuman concept of mercy, and has a AAA megacorp and a whole stable of AA's and below at his beck and call.

Plus, they made every Great in the world angry and now, they vowed to destory the Black Lodge for good. I have no idea what they hoped to accomplish, in all honesty. It just makes no sense at all.

Lil' late to the party... But didn't they attempt to airstrike a dragon and he winded up very much alive? (Think it was Alamaise)

Alamaise was wtflazored that one time.
He got better.

That's his thing, btw.

He gets his butt kicked by Lofwyr, so he moves to Barsaive, to open up his own wood, with BlackJack and elven w...omen.
He fathers some children, gets his butt kicked by his daughter, goes in hiding.

A few thousand years later, he gets his butt kicked by a laser marker and a plane mounted vehicle laser, and goes in hiding.

He's pretty much a laughing stock.

Hell, given what was revealed way back in Dunk's Will, the whole Lodge would be barely cannon fodder for the kind of Ally Spirit that one of the Greats would have hanging around. Just sayin'...

Alamaise is (was) the bullied nerd of the dragon community.

You know, one drunk night I drew up a bunch of caricatures of the SR dragons, I think I made Alamaise the class nerd, broken glasses and all. Or maybe Celadyr had them. I should dig them out sometimes.

Oh and the thought of Chibi Loffy has me all fluttered inside ;D

Well that one's simple.... They thought it'd work and he'd die. You don't pull a play like that knowing you'll fail and be on the hit list before dinner.

They did their little magic nuke thinking it'd kill Lofwyr. Oops! Not quite good enough.

Great dragons seem to have very strange ... levels of toughness. One's downed by a couple flights of Jets and it's big news, but then Sirrung takes on 100s and 100s of jets, Naval bombardment, not to mention land forces, 100s if not 1000s of drones, specifically made anti dragon weapons. he got hit by a rail gun off a Destroyer and only 'drew blood'. Fought off all these forces for hours before he basically was knocked out by his own power being half ass reflected back at him. (( not killed but if not wisked away they could have)) Then you see Dunk 'die' in basically a car bomb.

In theory the Black Lodge's plan was "Let Al weaken him up a bit, then when our forward observer sees him bleedin' and tired, we use our magical nuke and kill the Gold one, and argueably most powerful dragon on earth." (( The Sea Dragon claims more turf but... you know)).

So while their plan was not the best one in the world, it wasn't like 'hey lets throw a punch and see what happens'. lol. Clearly those guys THOUGHT they'd kill him and when he was dead it'd likely get blamed on Al and his forces.

Right, but what'd happen next? Alamais would be the first to come after them, dragon supremacist as he is, and hoping to hide an astral trace from all of the world's Great Dragons is naive at best.

I am glad to hear you finally agree that CGL writing is inconsistent with previously established fluff as of late.

In his metahuman form. See its comparative vulnerability pointed out multiple times by multiple people above.

Then again... He kind of intended on dying.
That and the blood ritual would most likely have killed him anyhow.

He destroyed himself for the Watergate rift. Whether Lethe was intended as a product or a more natural result of a Great dragon's passing is hard to say.

Considering Ghostwalkers mate also became a spirit after death I think its natural.

And then there's Ghostwalker ghosting in and out of material form, and draconic life cycle that includes spirit stages as transistions. Oh, and Feuerschwinge and her pact with Ingnifera (that's German only I think).

Which begs the question: Where do the dead Greats go? Do they have their own metaplane, like ED Pathwalker Elves?