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Synner
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM)
So now we have different meanings of deltaware for basic and cultured bioware. Basic Bioware becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry and genome. Integration has nothing to do with it (or else the type O wouldn't work at all, since it's all about biochem matching). But cultured bioware determines grade based on integration, not biochem.

Think of it this way:

All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware.

Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential.

A secondary effect of Culture Bioware's requirement is that it is never available Second hand.

QUOTE
Do I have it? does deltaware mean an entirely different thing for cultured bioware than it does for basic bioware?

See above.
PlatonicPimp
Sorry, developers, but I don't quite buy it. To my thinking, the genome mathcing would be what creates the grades in all circumstances, and the special neurological integreation is waht makes cultured bioware need to be custom made. So no cultured bioware is off the shelf, because it has to be tailored to your neurology in order to function. But can still match your genome less or more.

The only difference would be that type O would still work on cultured bioware.

Anyway, this is my house rule from here on in, others feel free to use it.
Jérémie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Remember that the costs of implantation include the implantation costs and you get exactly zero of that back - so organlegging has a much worse return on the original cost than does reselling stolen watches or guns.

Uh, can you rephrase that?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Jérémie)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Aug 4 2007, 04:08 AM)
Remember that the costs of implantation include the implantation costs and you get exactly zero of that back - so organlegging has a much worse return on the original cost than does reselling stolen watches or guns.

Uh, can you rephrase that?

When you buy a datajack at list price you buy the implantation of the datajack, not a datajack in a tray covered with blood. So when you do turn over a datajack that you've liberated from an opponent, what you're providing is actually much less than what the book offers for 500 nuyen.gif

So it's not just that you're getting a fenced share of the cost of the item - you're literally providing less than the item listed in the book - so the price you get in return is proportionately less.

-Frank
Synner
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Sorry, developers, but I don't quite buy it. To my thinking, the genome matching would be what creates the grades in all circumstances, and the special neurological integreation is waht makes cultured bioware need to be custom made.

Okay, as long as you understand this interpretation is not actually stated anywhere in the rules.
Synner
QUOTE (jklst14)
1. Regarding bioware sensory improvements, shouldn't AR (with a sim module) be able to tune out unpleasant odors? Especially considering AR can create things like Virtual Weather?


Not really. What AR is designed to do is overlay something over your normal senses, there is no sensory override function built in. So, while it won't stop you smelling something or let you tune it down, you could "play" a stronger flower scent to cover the smell.

To use the Virtual Weather example, you could use it to make a winter's day feel sunny and warm, but if it starts raining you'll still feel the cold rain on your skin (as well as the warm breeze).

Only VR normally offers sensory override (basically the old RAS override).

QUOTE
2.  To repeat a question from before, does Daradrenaline give a +1 modifier to Drain resistance?

As written there is no reason for it not to. Check with your gamemaster.

QUOTE
3.  Another quick repeat, does Simsense Boosting stack with a technomancer's Overclocking?  Does the Encephalon's bonuses to the Cracking and Electronic Groups work for a technomancer?

The answers are yes and yes respectively. We playtested both and the decided that the hit technomancers take to Resonance from cyberware (particularly the encephalon at rating 2) offsets most potentially unbalancing elements and that it wasn't worth introducing that special case exception. Any gamemaster who finds the combos particularly unbalancing could just house rule them out but we didn't find anything particularly broken with the respective bonii.
Jérémie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
When you buy a datajack at list price you buy the implantation of the datajack

Uh, you mean both the product and the medical cost for implantation. I didn't know that... you have a source?
Buster
It's true the cost of the implant includes the cost of the implantation procedure. However you could also assume that the cost of the implantation procedure is as cheap and inconsequential as getting a body piercing in 2007. So with that understanding, you're right back at getting full price for used cyberware (minus the discount for used, stolen, criminal, etc).
Ol' Scratch
The rules in this game are entirely abstract. You just have to be creative about how you interpret some things.

For cyberware, the costs include the 'ware and the procedures to get it installed. When it comes to selling, it might simply reflect that implants have a higher resell value in the shadows than most other items do. Nothing changes mechanically, you're still getting less than the full retail value of the tiem, you're simply explaining how the surgery costs can also be covered.
Jérémie
Thanks, but I wasn't looking for what to do in my personal campaigns. I obviously missed something from the SR4 rulebook, and I was looking for a specific source page for it smile.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Jérémie)
Thanks, but I wasn't looking for what to do in my personal campaigns. I obviously missed something from the SR4 rulebook, and I was looking for a specific source page for it smile.gif

Oh yeah. Page 303, lower right hand corner. Cost of the implant depends upon grade. Not the cost of the object to be implanted - you are actually buying it into your body for the listed price.

-Frank
prionic6
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE
3.  Another quick repeat, does Simsense Boosting stack with a technomancer's Overclocking?  Does the Encephalon's bonuses to the Cracking and Electronic Groups work for a technomancer?

The answers are yes and yes respectively. We playtested both and the decided that the hit technomancers take to Resonance from cyberware (particularly the encephalon at rating 2) offsets most potentially unbalancing elements and that it wasn't worth introducing that special case exception. Any gamemaster who finds the combos particularly unbalancing could just house rule them out but we didn't find anything particularly broken with the respective bonii.

But a Simsense Booster would have no effect on a technomancer with Overclocking, right? Besides the essence loss, of course.
Rotbart van Dainig
That's what the 4 IP limit is for...
hobgoblin
there is a hard limit there? never noticed...
prionic6
Right there in the description of the Simsense Booster.
Wanderer
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 4 2007, 06:45 PM)
Sorry, developers, but I don't quite buy it. To my thinking, the genome mathcing would be what creates the grades in all circumstances, and the special neurological integreation is waht makes cultured bioware need to be custom made. So no cultured bioware is off the shelf, because it has to be tailored to your neurology in order to function. But can still match your genome less or more.

The only difference would be that type O would still work on cultured bioware.

Anyway, this is my house rule from here on in, others feel free to use it.

I eagerly add my vote to PlatonicPlimp's interpretation of the rules. He has explained my way of seeing the whole Type O-neural bioware issue better than I could. If this need to be a house rule, let it be.

In addition not to buying the in-game questionable biological justification for the canon rule you developers proffer, I also have to state strong disagreement with the apparent game philosophy choices behind it. The separateness between somatic and neural bioware is something that needs to be downplayed as much as possible, not emphasized, since it is an ugly legacy rule that unnecessarily complicates character creation and bookkeeping of Augmented characters, and directly comes from the previous editions' same confusing rules mess that had wholly separate Essence and Bio Index tracks (UGH!!), rules for their effects, and systems to reduce their impact.

The only thing that indeed makes sense is that neural bioware must be custom-made and cannot be second hand, this is easy to do and it's all the separate rule that the stuff needs. No need for separate and different biological integration grades and methods and special favored biology merits for somatic and neural bioware that only complicate life for players and GMs of Augmented characters and add unnecessary bureaucracy to the game.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (prionic6)
Right there in the description of the Simsense Booster.

hmm, it may well be that im getting rusty...
Whipstitch
Cultured bioware has virtually no effect on grades Wanderer. There's no special work involved with getting different grades of cultured bioware just because they call it cultured. From a pure rules standpoint, there's really only three differences between cultured and standard bioware. Cultured means the ware does not benefit from type O and it can not be bought of the shelf and it cannot be transplanted. Those are the only differences worth noting. Compared to essence holes and a 50% discount that flip flops when your bio to cyber ratio changes, keeping track of that is child's play.
hobgoblin
it seems the cultured vs basic bioware is a mental holdover for players of SR3...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
Cultured means the ware does not benefit from type O and it can not be bought of the shelf and it cannot be transplanted.


Even that's only 2 differences. Type O only applies to things that are off the shelf (because those things are already made with your cell line essentially). Since cultured ware does not appear on shelves, there's nothing for type o to apply to.

-Frank
PlatonicPimp
There's a third difference, though, and that is that they have different justifications for how higher grades work. Of the shelf grades are based on how compatable with the target's genome they are. By that definition of grade, all cultured bioware should be delta. But the game still wants different grades of cultured ware, so cultured ware gets an entirely separate justification for grades, based on integration. I find that inelegant, especially since you could reverse the justifications on cultured bioware, unify what constitutes higher grades across the board, and the only game effect it would have is to allow a 30(!) point quality to apply to a couple dozen more implants.
Synner
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 5 2007, 04:55 PM)
There's a third difference, though, and that is that they have different justifications for how higher grades work. Of the shelf grades are based on how compatable with the target's genome they are.

This is incorrect. You will find no definition of bioware grades that says that.

You will find definitions that state that higher grades equal better matching to the subjects physiology and better protein-matched. Only delta grade is matched at the genetic level.

What seems to be confusing is that this is exactly the same whether you're implanting basic bioware or cultured bioware. Grades are unified across the board, they are all about integration and invasiveness, though not just the biological matching of tissues, but the various procedures and treatments that are involved in the body accepting and self-regulating the new organs.

Cultured bioware does not have to be gene-matched (unless it is delta), what it does need to be is adjusted to the user's neurological system (and the system to it).

QUOTE
By that definition of grade, all cultured bioware should be delta. But the game still wants different grades of cultured ware, so cultured ware gets an entirely separate justification for grades, based on integration.

No, because as I've indicated above physiological matching isn't necessarily limited to tissue matching via vat-grown genes (though that helps) - there are other bodily systems and functions that have to be adjusted to integrate the new organ (regardless of whether its cultured or standard).

QUOTE
I find that inelegant, especially since you could reverse the justifications on cultured bioware, unify what constitutes higher grades across the board, and the only game effect it would have is to  allow a 30(!) point quality to apply to a couple dozen more implants.

Actually this would extend the quality to less than 10 other implants.
Whipstitch
Forbidding second-hand cultured 'ware and Type O benefits is hardly a trivial consequence. As a group, the cultured bioware in the game are all balanced and powerful enough where they bear strong consideration for pretty much any archetype without benefiting from Type O or getting a 50% cost reduction for being bought used. A used Synaptic Booster 3 would cost 1.8 essence and only 120,000 nuyen. For maximum initiative passes and 3 reaction! Type O Synaptic 3 would be max passes and 3 reaction for 240k and less than a full essence point. Hell, in my games the simple fact that you don't need to somehow get access to a Delta Clinic to get delta-grade bioware could probably be worth a 5 point quality alone, even if you still had to pay the full nuyen for Delta grade, since it's not unreasonable to expect a contact willing to get you into such a clinic from day 1 to cost at least 10 bps.

You are right about one thing: the cultured designation really didn't mean much of anything until Type O came in. Actually, if you want to get real technical about it, it didn't actually accomplish -anything- official until Aug came out, because there weren't any second-hand rules in yet either. I suspect that this is by design. It let them balance powerful 'ware like Synaptic Boosters, Reflex Recorders and Pain editors without causing some massive power bloat when they put second-hand rules and Type O into the game. Just speculation on my part, but it makes enough sense that I've suspected cultured 'ware would be used like this ever since I first got my hands on the SR4 BBB .
Tarantula
QUOTE (Aug @ 61)
Only basic bioware can be found second-hand—alpha or better grade and cultured bioware are by definition protein-matched and cannot be implanted in another body.
I think that because they specified that second hand does not work with cultured bioware, it doesn't.
QUOTE (Aug @ 20)
While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body
I also think that because they didn't specify that type o doesn't work with cultured bioware, it does.

Grades of 'ware are standard, alpha, beta and delta. What type O tells me is that standard is treated as delta for someone with type O. What second hand tells me, is that alpha, beta, delta and cultured can't be gotten second hand.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (Aug @ 61)
Only basic bioware can be found second-hand—alpha or better grade and cultured bioware are by definition protein-matched and cannot be implanted in another body.
I think that because they specified that second hand does not work with cultured bioware, it doesn't.

Yep.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Aug @  20)
While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body
I also think that because they didn't specify that type o doesn't work with cultured bioware, it does.


Whoa there, what?[

Basic Bioware is a specific list of Bioware. It's a list that does not include Cultured Bioware. The Type O quality tells you exactly what it applies to - Basic Bioware. It does not say that it applies to Cultured Biware, it does not say that it applies to Cosmetic Cyberware, it does not sya that it applies to Nanoware, it just applies to Basic Bioware. Not other things.

What is hard to understand about that?

QUOTE (synner)
Actually this would extend the quality to less than 10 other implants.


Easy there, you're going to lose your reputatation for accuracy with that kind of hyperbole. It would extend the quality to exactly 10 implants:
  1. Cerebral Booster
  2. Damage Compensators
  3. Mnemonic Enhancer
  4. Pain Editor
  5. Reflex Recorder
  6. Sleep Regulator
  7. Synaptic Booster
  8. Reception Enhancer
  9. Thermosense Organs
  10. Trauma Damper

smile.gif

-Frank
Synner
Okay, okay, I was off by one (thermosenses for the record). Sheesh.
hobgoblin
the devil is in the details wink.gif
Aaron
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Basic Bioware is a specific list of Bioware. It's a list that does not include Cultured Bioware. The Type O quality tells you exactly what it applies to - Basic Bioware. It does not say that it applies to Cultured Biware, it does not say that it applies to Cosmetic Cyberware, it does not sya that it applies to Nanoware, it just applies to Basic Bioware. Not other things.

What is hard to understand about that?

It seems to be less about being difficult to understand and more about nomenclature. The list of non-cultured bioware is labeled "Basic" in only two places: the table of bioware in SR4, and the table of bioware in Augmentation. Further muddying the waters is the fact that the term "basic" is used in many places in Augmentation to describe the grade of cyberware and bioware that is described as "standard" in the table in SR4. To top it off, the list of new non-cultured bioware in Augmentation starts with the heading, "Standard Bioware." I, for one, can understand the confusion.

This may be something that could be addressed in errata, perhaps making changes so that the term "basic bioware" is used only to describe non-cultured bioware and "standard bioware" to describe its grade.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Easy there, you're going to lose your reputatation for accuracy with that kind of hyperbole. It would extend the quality to exactly 10 implants

Until Echolocation hits the table correctly... it is described as neural ware, but classed as basic... same goes for Enhanced Pheromone Receptor, Hearing Enhancement and Tactile Sensitivity.

If your want to keep a straight face when telling why Type O does not extend to cultered bioware, because it is modifying the nerves and stuff... fix those.
Jérémie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Oh yeah. Page 303, lower right hand corner. Cost of the implant depends upon grade. Not the cost of the object to be implanted - you are actually buying it into your body for the listed price.

Erh... doesn't think so. Implant seems to refer more often to the object, than the implantation itself.

One example:
QUOTE (Augmentation p.10)
Some contracts even cover the costs of implant surgery at their clinics.

And even not a ST quote.

And I don't remember a rule in Augmentation to modulate the price of implants depending of the quality of the implantation.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Synner)
You will find definitions that state that higher grades equal better matching to the subjects physiology and better protein-matched. Only delta grade is matched at the genetic level.

[snip]

Cultured bioware does not have to be gene-matched (unless it is delta), what it does need to be is adjusted to the user's neurological system (and the system to it).

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

So then WHY doesn't type O apply to cultured ware? It's only 10 implants, it doesn't strain credibility, and it certainly doesn't make type O broken. I'll leave it to others to argue the wording of the rules (which is vague on the subject) and instead question the intent. Is there a solid game balance reason to disclude cultured bioware from benifiting from type O? Because on it's own the fluff reasoning isn't holding water.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
So then WHY doesn't type O apply to cultured ware?


Because there are no off-the-rack versions of those implants for it to apply to.

-Frank
Ol' Scratch
Try looking at it this way:

Type O makes implants that are Type O fit you like they were custom made for you. Because, in effect, they were. Cultured Bioware, on the other hand, isn't made from Type O materials by default; they're custom made for you on demand. Thus their Essence cost already covers that whether you were Type O, Type A, or Type Whogivesacrap.
PlatonicPimp
No, I've heard you say all that. And I've heard and given other interpretations, and any of them might make sense. I'm asking for a Gamist reason why.

Because there is "off the shelf" cultured ware. It's the lowest grade. If there are grades of bioware at all, and if the same factors determine what grade is for both cultured and basic bioware, then type O would logically work for both. Put another way, if all cultured bioware is created from the user's own flesh, then it's ALL deltaware, by the explanation of what deltaware means. If it's NOT grown from the user's own flesh by default, then type O should convert it to deltaware. The only way out of this is to say that deltaware for cultured bioware means something different than it does for basic bioware, and I'll only buy such an inelegant explanation if there is a solid game balance reason.

Fortune
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 6 2007, 12:46 PM)
... and I'll only buy such an inelegant explanation if there is a solid game balance reason.

Because most of the cool shit is included in that list of 10 Cultured Bioware items. wink.gif
PlatonicPimp
Then reduce the cost of type O, because for 30 damn points I better get the cool shit.
Whipstitch
I truly believe my GM would crap himself if they allowed Type O to affect Synaptic boosters and Reflex Recorders, I truly do. I don't care if it's 50+ BP all said and done, any campaign expected to go beyond a half dozen runs or so would start with me taking Adept, Muscle Toners, Type O and Synaptic 2. And if it cost less than 30 points, I'd be making all my mages with Type O, it's that good.
hobgoblin
from what i gather, type O, or standard bioware, is made based on cells that are not rejected by any body. at first i thought the name came from blood type O but that's not correct.

the way i understand the quality is that when you have it, your body's cells happens to have the same kind of non-rejective property. kinda like how a person with type O blood can take any type iirc.

therefor, standard bioware, for all intents, becomes cultured in your body.

but this is all biology. essence is more then that. and thats where the grades come in imo.
Tarantula
type o is from type o blood. Type o blood is the "universal donor" because it can go into anyone without being rejected and attacked. AB blood is the universal receiver, because it will accept, O, A, B, or AB blood.

Yes, with the quality, your body will take the off the shelf bioware as its own organs. For all intents, the 'ware becomes deltaware, because thats what the quality says.

As far as I know, cultured ware doesn't state that its grades are because of a different process than basic ware. It just says it has the same grades. Which tells me that they are done the same way. While, cultured ware still would have to be grown to match the neural structure, it would be easy to match the type to the base used by basic bioware. Why? Because you wouldn't need any samples, you could merely tell/show them that you area type o, and they could use the same "off the rack" materials to grow the neural stuff, matching the neurals to the customer. It doesn't mean the 'ware wouldn't match just as well.
hobgoblin
deltaware? when did cultured equal delta?
Tarantula
It doesn't. Why? Because you can have delta cultured ware.
hobgoblin
never mind, i walked into he same trap that i was warning about. the one about thinking that cultured bioware is anyhing more then a fluff label these sr4 days.
Rotbart van Dainig
One they sometimes missed, which makes the Type O quality limitation right now as sensible as:

It applies only to Bodyware, not Headware.
Synner
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 5 2007, 08:58 PM)

Until Echolocation hits the table correctly... it is described as neural ware, but classed as basic... same goes for Enhanced Pheromone Receptor, Hearing Enhancement and Tactile Sensitivity.

If your want to keep a straight face when telling why Type O does not extend to cultered bioware, because it is modifying the nerves and stuff... fix those.

Some confusion here. "Cultured bioware" designation is not interchangeable with "neural bioware" (though the vast majority of it is in fact neural augmentation). What distinguishes cultured bioware isn't that it is neural ware, but that it requires the bioware be grown from the user's own cells to even work (note that this doesn't necessarily mean it is perfectly DNA-matched as some have suggested, because the alterations made to the cell culture to grow into the bioware template will alter the DNA to some extent).

Most bioware requires neural rewiring to some extent, some of it quite extensive. The bioware you have quoted all features some level of neural enhancement but do not require the matching intrinsic to Cultured Bioware.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
Some confusion here.

Not on my side, sorry.

QUOTE (Synner)
"Cultured bioware" designation is not interchangeable with "neural bioware" (though the vast majority of it is in fact neural augmentation).

The Augmention rules are pretty straight-forward on that: 'neural bioware - aka cultured bioware'.
Thus: If it's neural - it's cultured.

QUOTE (Synner)
What distinguishes cultured bioware isn't that it is neural ware, but that it requires the bioware be grown from the user's own cells to even work (note that this doesn't necessarily mean it is perfectly DNA-matched as some have suggested, because the alterations made to the cell culture to grow into the bioware template will alter the DNA to some extent).

And that characteristic would be, other than neural integration?
Actually, Augmention rules tell us that: It 'must be matched to the patient's physiology, particularly his brain and nervous system.'

QUOTE (Synner)
Most bioware requires neural rewiring to some extent, some of it quite extensive.

Actually, no other basic implants other than those quoted are featureing nerve modification in it's description.

QUOTE (Synner)
The bioware you have quoted all features some level of neural enhancement but do not require the matching intrinsic to Cultured Bioware.

Echolocation is Cultured Bioware par excellence: It involves modification of the brain. Only.
Yes, I know - changing the layout sucks. But it's grouped wrong, plain and simple.

The rest is disputable, but the wording should focus less on neurology if it remains Basic Bioware.
Talia Invierno
Speaking of genetic (and apologies if I missed this question already having been asked):

Is geneware available in grades?

Btw, for the potential side effects of off-the-shelf roll-of-the-dice temporary effect gene cocktails, much more drastic consequences could safely have been written in than a months-long cancer, especially since the description suggests the same basic methodology as current attempts at gene therapy.

(What does borrowed time mean to a shadowrunner, after all? Possibly little enough that the original flaw was scrapped?)
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Is geneware available in grades?

See p. 87, 'Geneware, Essence and Grades':

Nope.
hobgoblin
now that i have slept on it, it seems that what cultured bioware is a victim of is bad wording from end to end.

while basic/standard bioware can be put into almost anyone with little work, hell it can be put on ice and stored by the sound of it, cultured is so invasive that even in its simplest form it needs to be closer to the patients body then basic could even dream of, to not kill him on the spot.

so i suspect that one cant compare basic delta bio with cultured delta bio. while they operate along the same rules, biology, one is so alien to the patient body that unless its carefully matched on the spot, he is dead. then comes more adaption on top of that in the form of the grades.

when they talk about type O its not like type O is a perfect match for every type O quality person out there. it just happens that both the bioware and the patient body is very accepting of what it comes into contact with. but as cultured is so invasive as it is, even an accepting body has trouble allowing it in.

or to attempt to put it in other words, cultured goes deeper then even the deepest basic wink.gif

or, what basic consider delta, cultured may well see as ungraded.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Btw, for the potential side effects of off-the-shelf roll-of-the-dice temporary effect gene cocktails, much more drastic consequences could safely have been written in than a months-long cancer, especially since the description suggests the same basic methodology as current attempts at gene therapy.

The cost-benefit ratio for adding further options just didn't seem worth it. However, I'd readily concede that the possible negative side effects of failed gene therapy could go on for volumes. It's just a question of deciding what was relevant and appropriate for game use.
Synner
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Synner)
"Cultured bioware" designation is not interchangeable with "neural bioware" (though the vast majority of it is in fact neural augmentation).

The Augmention rules are pretty straight-forward on that: 'neural bioware - aka cultured bioware'.
Thus: If it's neural - it's cultured.

The fact that neural ware is essentially cultured bioware doesn't mean the reverse is true.

QUOTE
Thus: If it's neural - it's cultured.

This does not mean the opposite is true.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Synner)
What distinguishes cultured bioware isn't that it is neural ware, but that it requires the bioware be grown from the user's own cells to even work (note that this doesn't necessarily mean it is perfectly DNA-matched as some have suggested, because the alterations made to the cell culture to grow into the bioware template will alter the DNA to some extent).

[...]And that characteristic would be, other than neural integration?

That it must be "cultured"? That it is tailored to a specific user's metabolism, neurology and whatever other automatic bodily processes the bioware affects?

QUOTE
Actually, Augmention rules tell us that: It 'must be matched to the patient's physiology, particularly his brain and nervous system.'

Yup, operative word being "physiology" since it goes a long way beyond just the brain and nervous system - those these are particularly important. It means the metabolic processes, biorhythms, brain chemistry, neurochemical carriers, etc have to be in sync too.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Synner)
Most bioware requires neural rewiring to some extent, some of it quite extensive.

Actually, no other basic implants other than those quoted are featureing nerve modification in it's description.

You're honestly trying to tell me that Tailored Phermone's are not linked up to the user's central nervous system? Or that Cat's Eyes replacements don't have nerves up to the brain? Or that the Adrenal Pump (which is triggered by stress and emotional states) is not linked up to the emotive sensors of the brain via the nervous system?

It has been left unsaid that almost every bioware implant has to have some degree of neural work, no matter how incidental to its function simply because if it didn't it would throw the body's physiological balance out of whack.

The difference is exactly that the neural work most bioware requires is localized and incidental to its performance and effect.

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QUOTE (Synner)
The bioware you have quoted all features some level of neural enhancement but do not require the matching intrinsic to Cultured Bioware.

Echolocation is Cultured Bioware par excellence: It involves modification of the brain. Only. Yes, I know - changing the layout sucks. But it's grouped wrong, plain and simple.

In hindsight, I would probably agree with you on Echolocation.
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