Think of it this way:

All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware.

Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential.

A secondary effect of Culture Bioware's requirement is that it is never available Second hand.

See above.

Uh, can you rephrase that?

When you buy a datajack at list price you buy the implantation of the datajack, not a datajack in a tray covered with blood. So when you do turn over a datajack that you've liberated from an opponent, what you're providing is actually much less than what the book offers for 500

So it's not just that you're getting a fenced share of the cost of the item - you're literally providing less than the item listed in the book - so the price you get in return is proportionately less.

-Frank

Okay, as long as you understand this interpretation is not actually stated anywhere in the rules.

Not really. What AR is designed to do is overlay something over your normal senses, there is no sensory override function built in. So, while it won't stop you smelling something or let you tune it down, you could "play" a stronger flower scent to cover the smell.

To use the Virtual Weather example, you could use it to make a winter's day feel sunny and warm, but if it starts raining you'll still feel the cold rain on your skin (as well as the warm breeze).

Only VR normally offers sensory override (basically the old RAS override).

As written there is no reason for it not to. Check with your gamemaster.

The answers are yes and yes respectively. We playtested both and the decided that the hit technomancers take to Resonance from cyberware (particularly the encephalon at rating 2) offsets most potentially unbalancing elements and that it wasn't worth introducing that special case exception. Any gamemaster who finds the combos particularly unbalancing could just house rule them out but we didn't find anything particularly broken with the respective bonii.

Uh, you mean both the product and the medical cost for implantation. I didn't know that... you have a source?

Oh yeah. Page 303, lower right hand corner. Cost of the implant depends upon grade. Not the cost of the object to be implanted - you are actually buying it into your body for the listed price.

-Frank

But a Simsense Booster would have no effect on a technomancer with Overclocking, right? Besides the essence loss, of course.

I eagerly add my vote to PlatonicPlimp's interpretation of the rules. He has explained my way of seeing the whole Type O-neural bioware issue better than I could. If this need to be a house rule, let it be.

In addition not to buying the in-game questionable biological justification for the canon rule you developers proffer, I also have to state strong disagreement with the apparent game philosophy choices behind it. The separateness between somatic and neural bioware is something that needs to be downplayed as much as possible, not emphasized, since it is an ugly legacy rule that unnecessarily complicates character creation and bookkeeping of Augmented characters, and directly comes from the previous editions' same confusing rules mess that had wholly separate Essence and Bio Index tracks (UGH!!), rules for their effects, and systems to reduce their impact.

The only thing that indeed makes sense is that neural bioware must be custom-made and cannot be second hand, this is easy to do and it's all the separate rule that the stuff needs. No need for separate and different biological integration grades and methods and special favored biology merits for somatic and neural bioware that only complicate life for players and GMs of Augmented characters and add unnecessary bureaucracy to the game.

hmm, it may well be that im getting rusty...

Even that's only 2 differences. Type O only applies to things that are off the shelf (because those things are already made with your cell line essentially). Since cultured ware does not appear on shelves, there's nothing for type o to apply to.

-Frank

This is incorrect. You will find no definition of bioware grades that says that.

You will find definitions that state that higher grades equal better matching to the subjects physiology and better protein-matched. Only delta grade is matched at the genetic level.

What seems to be confusing is that this is exactly the same whether you're implanting basic bioware or cultured bioware. Grades are unified across the board, they are all about integration and invasiveness, though not just the biological matching of tissues, but the various procedures and treatments that are involved in the body accepting and self-regulating the new organs.

Cultured bioware does not have to be gene-matched (unless it is delta), what it does need to be is adjusted to the user's neurological system (and the system to it).

No, because as I've indicated above physiological matching isn't necessarily limited to tissue matching via vat-grown genes (though that helps) - there are other bodily systems and functions that have to be adjusted to integrate the new organ (regardless of whether its cultured or standard).

Actually this would extend the quality to less than 10 other implants.

I think that because they specified that second hand does not work with cultured bioware, it doesn't.

I also think that because they didn't specify that type o doesn't work with cultured bioware, it does.

Grades of 'ware are standard, alpha, beta and delta. What type O tells me is that standard is treated as delta for someone with type O. What second hand tells me, is that alpha, beta, delta and cultured can't be gotten second hand.

Yep.

Whoa there, what?[

Basic Bioware is a specific list of Bioware. It's a list that does not include Cultured Bioware. The Type O quality tells you exactly what it applies to - Basic Bioware. It does not say that it applies to Cultured Biware, it does not say that it applies to Cosmetic Cyberware, it does not sya that it applies to Nanoware, it just applies to Basic Bioware. Not other things.

What is hard to understand about that?

Easy there, you're going to lose your reputatation for accuracy with that kind of hyperbole. It would extend the quality to exactly 10 implants:

1. Cerebral Booster
2. Damage Compensators
3. Mnemonic Enhancer
4. Pain Editor
5. Reflex Recorder
6. Sleep Regulator
7. Synaptic Booster
8. Reception Enhancer
9. Thermosense Organs
10. Trauma Damper

-Frank

It seems to be less about being difficult to understand and more about nomenclature. The list of non-cultured bioware is labeled "Basic" in only two places: the table of bioware in SR4, and the table of bioware in Augmentation. Further muddying the waters is the fact that the term "basic" is used in many places in Augmentation to describe the grade of cyberware and bioware that is described as "standard" in the table in SR4. To top it off, the list of new non-cultured bioware in Augmentation starts with the heading, "Standard Bioware." I, for one, can understand the confusion.

This may be something that could be addressed in errata, perhaps making changes so that the term "basic bioware" is used only to describe non-cultured bioware and "standard bioware" to describe its grade.

Until Echolocation hits the table correctly... it is described as neural ware, but classed as basic... same goes for Enhanced Pheromone Receptor, Hearing Enhancement and Tactile Sensitivity.

If your want to keep a straight face when telling why Type O does not extend to cultered bioware, because it is modifying the nerves and stuff... fix those.

Erh... doesn't think so. Implant seems to refer more often to the object, than the implantation itself.

One example:

And even not a ST quote.

And I don't remember a rule in Augmentation to modulate the price of implants depending of the quality of the implantation.

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

So then WHY doesn't type O apply to cultured ware? It's only 10 implants, it doesn't strain credibility, and it certainly doesn't make type O broken. I'll leave it to others to argue the wording of the rules (which is vague on the subject) and instead question the intent. Is there a solid game balance reason to disclude cultured bioware from benifiting from type O? Because on it's own the fluff reasoning isn't holding water.

Because there are no off-the-rack versions of those implants for it to apply to.

-Frank

Because most of the cool shit is included in that list of 10 Cultured Bioware items.

Some confusion here. "Cultured bioware" designation is not interchangeable with "neural bioware" (though the vast majority of it is in fact neural augmentation). What distinguishes cultured bioware isn't that it is neural ware, but that it requires the bioware be grown from the user's own cells to even work (note that this doesn't necessarily mean it is perfectly DNA-matched as some have suggested, because the alterations made to the cell culture to grow into the bioware template will alter the DNA to some extent).

Most bioware requires neural rewiring to some extent, some of it quite extensive. The bioware you have quoted all features some level of neural enhancement but do not require the matching intrinsic to Cultured Bioware.

Not on my side, sorry.

The Augmention rules are pretty straight-forward on that: 'neural bioware - aka cultured bioware'.
Thus: If it's neural - it's cultured.

And that characteristic would be, other than neural integration?
Actually, Augmention rules tell us that: It 'must be matched to the patient's physiology, particularly his brain and nervous system.'

Actually, no other basic implants other than those quoted are featureing nerve modification in it's description.

Echolocation is Cultured Bioware par excellence: It involves modification of the brain. Only.
Yes, I know - changing the layout sucks. But it's grouped wrong, plain and simple.

The rest is disputable, but the wording should focus less on neurology if it remains Basic Bioware.

See p. 87, 'Geneware, Essence and Grades':

Nope.

The cost-benefit ratio for adding further options just didn't seem worth it. However, I'd readily concede that the possible negative side effects of failed gene therapy could go on for volumes. It's just a question of deciding what was relevant and appropriate for game use.

The fact that neural ware is essentially cultured bioware doesn't mean the reverse is true.

This does not mean the opposite is true.

That it must be "cultured"? That it is tailored to a specific user's metabolism, neurology and whatever other automatic bodily processes the bioware affects?

Yup, operative word being "physiology" since it goes a long way beyond just the brain and nervous system - those these are particularly important. It means the metabolic processes, biorhythms, brain chemistry, neurochemical carriers, etc have to be in sync too.

You're honestly trying to tell me that Tailored Phermone's are not linked up to the user's central nervous system? Or that Cat's Eyes replacements don't have nerves up to the brain? Or that the Adrenal Pump (which is triggered by stress and emotional states) is not linked up to the emotive sensors of the brain via the nervous system?

It has been left unsaid that almost every bioware implant has to have some degree of neural work, no matter how incidental to its function simply because if it didn't it would throw the body's physiological balance out of whack.

The difference is exactly that the neural work most bioware requires is localized and incidental to its performance and effect.

In hindsight, I would probably agree with you on Echolocation.