has anyone done a condensation of this thread into a readable/searchable format?

im just wondering if the limb capacity for items that go into multiple limbs have been covered? (probably have)

I have not been following the cyberlimbs arguments as I have should.

1) Are cyberlimbs compatible with ware like dermal sheathing or bone lacing?

2) How many articulated weapon arms can be attached to the cyber torso?

...now here's a best use for the cybertorso & cyberarms I've seen...

Fat Samurai

So obviously the cyberzombie on p137 is non-canon?

No.
If you exceed capacity, it uses up essence rather than capacity.

Maybe 137-Dude has used the 'Bulk' option for his obvious cybertorso to increase its capacity.

"Cultured means the ware does not benefit from type O and it can not be bought of the shelf (sic) and it cannot be transplanted."
I am new to Shadowrun and never played 3rd edition. The rule above makes sense to me. The idea that cultured ware comes in grades because there are ways to grow and implant it, that are more expensive and less of a shock to your system (or less conflict with your astral body image), also makes sense to me. There may be people who are attached to the 3E heritage, but as a newbie, I think it's a case of "feel free to apply house rules", not a case of "what were the designers thinking?".

I am not convinced that all secondhand ware should follow the Secondhand Ware rules. If your buddy dies, and his will says that you get his suprathyroid, and a skilled, well-equipped doctor cuts it out of his throat while his body is still warm and puts it into yours... should you really pay a higher Essence cost, than if you got a new one from Evo?
Could your intent also be expressed as "Cut-Rate Ware"?

"Same for putting your eyes on a pair of 3 inch, prehensile stalks on your shoulders btw."
But the latter has the bonus of forcing Sanity Checks on anyone who sees you. And a penalty on social rolls with anyone but true xenophiles.
What's the nuyen and essence cost for having your eyes on extendable stalks that grow from your eye sockets and can look around corners, a la "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"?

otakusensei writes: "It doesn't give your body needed oxygen, just removes the trauma of not having it. You still die, you're just more relaxed about it." - LOL! Drowning/suffocation is one of those things that systems handle with wide variance; see "Joe Drowns!" from Murphy's Rules.

Synner writes "I'll try to make sure files go out as PDF v1.4 in the future, though; looks like Augmentation got "upgraded" at some point in the process."
That's... all too appropriate, or ironic.
BTW, I had Augmentation in my backpack while at a Star Wars game in which a PC got their spine cut with a lightsaber, would need prosthetics to walk out of the hospital, but was from a low-tech (Wookie) tribe that considered prosthetics evil. So I whipped out Augmentation and showed the player the back cover: "Upgrade or Die!" It got a laugh.

First things first: congratulations to all those involved in writing Augmentation, IMHO the best Shadowrun supplement ever written (as it successfully summarizes and expands all the aspects of all the previous "implants" sourcebooks and goes further by incorporating fully new concepts)!

Now the bad news: some new character ideas (or old ones made possible by new rules/items) from some of my players are troubling me...

HEAVILY genetically engineered transhumanist (a.k.a. numero uno problem): I love this character just as much as as I know how "broken" it is. The problem/s with this one arise from some blindspots and/or loopholes generated by the Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage merits and the "bioware as transgenic alteration" rules and the possible combinations of them three.

Lowlife ganger "built" of used cyberware (a.k.a. numero dos problem): I like the concept, but I find the rules on used implants potentially unbalancing (particularly so at character generation).

Now, NONE of said players are troublesome nor powergamers (nor know about this forum, so please comment freely) and are aware that even when we think that said characters are legal maybe they won´t get to play them.

I hate being a dick as much as I hate houseruling and fall for one of these options only when there´s no other one available, so I very much welcome any advice on this subject.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance.

I pretty much agree with Cthulhudreams. The bioware abilities that can be gained via transgenic alteration are basically only those of the 'animal features' variety. So while you might think that Synaptic Boosters at rating 1 might be found in the genetic nature of some creature, rating 3 probably would not. You can use your own judgment for each of the player's proposed implants, and there shouldn't be too much problem if he understands the basic underlying concept of the gene therapy.

As to the second character ... you didn't give us enough info on just what kind of problem you foresee having.

I hate it when people try to get around the intention of a rule like that.

It's pretty damn clear that the rule is referring to bioware that is blatantly animalistic in nature such as Cat's Eyes, Hair Growth, Tailored Critter Pheromones, and Spidersilk Glands. Saying asinine things like "well, animal X has higher initiative scores and animal Y has more Agility than humans do, so Synaptic Boosters and Muscle Toners count as animal features" is just... meh.

While I'm a firm believer that the developers need to get off their asses and 1) actually word the rules properly and 2) keep an eye out for loopholes, that doesn't mean players and GMs alike should knowingly and purposely try to rape them simply because they can.

Thanks so far to Cthulhudreams and Fortune. Doctor Funkenstein... Chill out man!

I thought i had made my self clear but maybe I didn´t: the problem is NOT about people trying to rape anything (we have been through that ages ago), is about things that are not clear enough for us and as such I fell very uncomfortable houseruling about.

So, trying to be more clear:

1) I like the idea of bioware as genetic enhancements a LOT, more so when this is done to embryos: that´s the way I prefer to address biological enhancements. I love the idea of people being modified (even built!) before they are actually born and thus coming to this world already modified and lacking part of their "essence" (self?). For other kinds or "times" of enhancements I prefer cyberware (the cruder the better), though this factors in only aesthetically in our games and has no impact on it mechanically. Besides, bioware already was partially based on cloned material so I do not see it as such a big change.

What I do not like is that this "bioware as transgenic alterations" looks more as an accidental phrase than an idea fully thought through (even when I do think it is a cool one and really like the possibilities it opens up) and that´s the main reason why there are no clear rules about which bioware qualify for this and which one doesn´t (by the way, I don´t like the "transgenic" label either but this isn´t a problem).

So the question is: Is anyone capable of handing out rules (not fluff) about this subject? Maybe it is impossible at this time, but it doesn´t hurt to ask.

All this is also true for the merit Genetic Enhancement: that is, I am not sure about which enhancements qualify for it. I also don´t get if someone can get it multiple times and what happens if it does nor what happens if someone also gets Genecrafted: How would they combine, what would the final cost modifier be?

2) My problem with secondhand ware is that it makes really good stuff really cheap at character generation, specially some pieces of bioware and this heavily simplifies the choices a player has to make to "equip" his character.

Summing it all up: there are no rules that can cause real mayhem, when such a rule shows up you can always houserule it anyway you like. The ones that do cause problems are those that are unclear or lacking and (in my opinion) the ones I addressed fall under this category.

I have a question relating only peripheraly to Augmentation, but thought I'd ask it here rather then starting another thread. Why do monks of the Diamond Eye sect from Tibet have an apparent cyberzombie as their guru? (See the Hong Kong section of Runner Havens.)

@Nostalgic Jester
There was a thread on this also, IIRC cultured bioware(Neural) is not an option for Transgenetic Alteration, so synaptic accelerator is not available.

Using the two qualities in one character does not save on essence but a 40% reduction in costs is a good thing.

Bear in mind that adding a tail, which is sorta described in the Transgenetic Alteration-Animal, I would use the costs and essence lost described under BioSculpting section to cover the needed changes like tail, ears, etc, but under Transgenetic features so the character would gain cost savings under using the two qualities.

Here is a list of "Some" bioware that could be used for Transgenetic Alteration, but each choice is up to each GM.

Trans Alt Chameleon Skin
Trans Alt Dynamic Chameleon Skin
Trans Alt Clean Metabolism
Trans Alt Chloroplast Skin
Trans Alt Dietware
Trans Alt Hair Growth
Trans Alt Sensitive Skin
Trans Alt Silky Skin
Trans Alt Skin Pigmentation
Trans Alt Bio Tattoos
Trans Alt Bone Density Augmentation (Bear and Tiger Bone structures)
Trans Alt Cat's Eyes
Trans Alt Chemical Gland
Trans Alt Exhalation Spray
Trans Alt Internal Release
Trans Alt Spit
Trans Alt Weapon Reservoir
Trans Alt Digestive Expansion
Trans Alt Echolocation
Trans Alt Elastic Joints
Trans Alt Enhanced Pheromone Receptors
Trans Alt Extended Volume
Trans Alt Gecko Hands
Trans Alt Gills
Trans Alt Hands and Foot Webbing
Trans Alt Hearing Enhancement
Trans Alt Muscle Augmentation (Bear and Tiger Muscle structure)
Trans Alt Muscle Toner (Bear and Tiger Muscle structure)
Trans Alt Nicitating Membrane
Trans Alt Quills
Trans Alt Skin Pocket
Trans Alt Spidersilk Gland
Trans Alt Tactile Sensitivity
Trans Alt Tailored Critter Pheromones
Trans Alt Tailored Pheromones
Trans Alt Troll Eyes
Trans Alt Vocal Range Extender

WMS

That's pretty good, but I'd probably leave the Bio-Tattoos off that list.

@Fortune
Well from the description of it's use a similar chemical compound that FireFlies use, I put it in.

WMS

I loath munkinate ambitions. But keep the aserbic sarcasm to the point and remember to be polite.
I once felt similiar. It wears off.
You realise you don't feel the need slam your opion down like a guage.

@DF
As I can see you are usual self.

OK these Transgenetic Alterations-Animal Features List is an "attempt" to list some "possible" ways a character could use the section under Transgenetic Alterations-Animal Features.

In an earlier thread, Cultured Bioware, ie cerebral Booster, synaptic accelerators, are not available for Transgenetic wares.

You might go and see what Synner said about Geneware.

Animal muscle tissues are denser and of a different structure than our muscles, that makes them stronger than us. I merely used those two animals bear and tiger.

Some animal bones are stronger due to the stronger muscles those animals have, etc.

Same answer for muscle toner.

As for the word munchy/munkinate/munchkinism, well those you Listed would be right at home in your DIMR online game here.

If you wish to use those you listed, go for it. To me I will decline.

I find it most amusing the most vocal person against what is called "munchy/munkinate/munchkinism", has a online game that fits those terms to a tee.

WMS

I think that there is a difference between 'animal features' and 'animal traits'.

He's just upset because he knows he'd have never been accepted.

@DF enough said.
@Fortune
Augmentation page 93
"Animal Features: Animal features can include any phenotypic
modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails,
claws, and other animal characteristics. Note that such physical alterations
do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like
senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic. Full functionality
requires much more profound metabolic alterations. Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."

Emphasis mine.

So the above goes beyond the cosmetic.

WMS

Learn to read in context. You re-quoted the damn text (and conveniently un-bolded the part that says as much). It's right there in black and white.

If you want some fluffy cosmetic animal mod that's actually functional -- you know, like quills that actually do something -- you have that option with that rule. That's it. End of story. Not a damn thing else. And certainly none of your other bullshit additions above either, like excluding Cultured Bioware despite "another thread."

Here's How I'd house-rule it.

The "inherited genetic ability" edge (whatever it's called) allows you to purchase a specific genetic (or bioware) alteration with a 10% discount to cost and no limit on availability. It costs 5 points. You still have to spend your starting money to buy the 'ware itself, and the fact that it was present at birth is a "special effect".

I still want to make a "gene-zombie": a genetically crafted person with so much bio they were born with negative essence. Since this is the creatures natural state, it doesn't die from it's lack of a soul, but it has "interesting" effects, such as the background count and a complete inability to be magically healed. On the upsie, decreasing it's essence further has no damn effect on it.

@DF "plonk"
@Fortune
From the wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(rol...-playing_games)
"In gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills," and grab the most loot, no matter how deleterious their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general.

The term was applied originally to young gamers by older players, presumably because the connotation of being short and ridiculous (like the Munchkins in the book and film The Wizard of Oz) made it an apt label for the childish gamers it was applied to. However, before long it came to refer to anyone who engaged in a juvenile gaming style no matter their height, age or experience. Suggestions that the term appeared first on BBS and Internet forums in the late 1980s as "muchkin," to describe someone who wanted his character to have as much of everything as possible, and that it subsequently gained an additional N via misreadings and mistypings [1], can be discounted, since the term was already in use and needing no explanation on usenet groups by 1984.

Munchkins are infamous for various degrees of cheating, willfully misinterpreting rules that work against them while loudly proclaiming ones that work in their favor. As a matter of course they selectively obey the letter of rules while perverting the spirit blatantly. The worst munchkins will cheat shamelessly, ignoring inconvenient numerical modifiers and fouling dice throws till they get the result they want. During character creation, munchkins engage in vicious min-maxing, leading to exceptionally unrealistic or unusual characters who make no sense except in terms of raw power.

Munchkins are often accused of roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.

A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities."

The most use I see of such a term is due one seeing a "Style of play" that one disagrees with. In my case that is the way I used it. As for the others.....

WMS

@Fortune
Yes you are correct, you never used the term, you merely were asking why I used it, I was pointing out IMHO it is used here and elsewhere. I never posted that you used the term in any manner.

As for the other things you have brought up, will post in a new topic.

PAX

WMS

I would have posted this sooner, but my battery died on my laptop. Keep the personal arguements off the boards please. This poor thread has had enough tanget arguement.s

Are cyberlimbs immune to contact vector toxins/chemicals? Does AltSkin allow a user to have obvious cyberware that is undetectable through sight (since AltSkin is considered "virtually indistinguishable" from normal skin)? Do cyberlimbs leave prints, i.e. fingerprints, palmprints, soleprints, etc.?

Only if you want them too and it's always fun to leave someone else's fingerprints behind at the scene of a crime. It's just a Hardware skill test to mod your cyberware fingerprints, so it's a good idea to change them as often as you change your fake SIN.

Altskin can't cover cyberlimbs, so you need synthetic cyberlimbs instead of obvious cyberlimbs to keep them stealthy (or a Mask spell).

@Fortune
Augmentation page 113
"a layer of nanites responsive to the wearer's natural skin..."

WMS

That's what I was thinking. There is normally something specific mentioned when things don't work with Orthoskin or Dermal Plating and the like.

If it was my game, I'd rule that your skin upgrades are compatible with synthetic cyberlimbs, but not obvious ones. The synthetic "skin" would work more or less like normal skin, at least as far as the tech is concerned.

I just figured that AltSkin was like an advanced body latex that you apply on with a brush. I'd allow it in my games but I just wanted a developer's official answer.

And is there a page reference for cyberlimbs having prints?

A few more Aug thoughts and questions.

1. O-Cells make pathogens all but useless, a must have for every runner!

2. Nanohives take up both essence and capacity?

Can you cram a nanohive in Cybereye's/ears?

No, capacity for cyberears is only for ear type enhancements, and for cyber eyes is only for eye enhancements.

Edit: What Ranneko said.

Figured as much but I wanted to make sure.