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Rotbart van Dainig
As nanocybernetics implants are cybernetics, Adapsin reduces their Essence cost, too - right?
Synner
Yes.
apple
I would like to repeat my question, for a more or less official answer smile.gif:

- Cyberlimb armor: do I add it to my armor jacket like a helmet? Or do I use it like layered armor? Does it add to my armor limit (constitution x2)? Does it get averaged (armor /6)?

- Does the traumadamper and the platelet factories both reduce physical and stun drain from spellcasting, conjuring, binding etc. by one box?

Thank you in advance. It has been discussed by members of this board some pages before, but even then there were different opinions.

SYL
WearzManySkins
OK I have several questions I would like to ask about some things in Augmentation.

1. With Genetech, what is needed to "build/design etc" a gene therapy. The cyberware and bioware are fairly clear about this.
2. Transgenetic Alteration...Animal Appearance...what bioware items can be used under this heading as transgenetic alterations?
3. Does each bioware item have separate costs in nuyen and essence, I mean for transgenetic alteration - animal.?
4. What types of medical care places have immersion tanks ie Shops, Facilities etc?Or does it require a Genetech Shop, or facility etc?

WMS
Synner
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 3 2007, 04:12 AM)
1. With Genetech, what is needed to "build/design etc" a gene therapy. The cyberware and bioware are fairly clear about this.

Actually we purposefully did not include build/designing rules for cyberware and bioware either. What you have is rules for assemply, implantation and repair. All of which assume installing and upgrading implants or their ready-made components bought from the manufacturer (as opposed to building them yourself).

Building your own cybernetic arm from scratch is definitely not covered in the rules, nor is designing and growing a unique new bioware organ.

Designing a gene therapy from scratch (well, from existing research) still takes thousands of man-hours of work, a fully decked out geneshop or facility, several techs working on appropriate vectors and enabling processes, significant in vitro testing, and preferably quite a few animal and clinical trials to work out any unforseen kinks. Typically the process costs several hundred thousand nuyen, several months to a few years to perfect, besides the considerable research time.

This is so far beyond the scope of the vast majority of Shadowrun campaigns that we didn't include mechanics for it.

At the very least such activities would require very extended Cybertechnology Design Knowledge Skill test or Medicine Genetics Knowledge Skill test, having all the relevant equipment, then making (to simplify) a Cybertechnology or Medicine Test to actually produce the requisite retroviral agents/nanites/phages for the treatment, then labtesting it for unforseen effects on guinea pigs (animal or otherwise). Obviously the GM is free to throw as many hoops your way as he wants since this is the realm of corporate R&D and a one-man show street op is not going to be competing with the big boys in SOTA without a whole lot of hard work.

QUOTE
2. Transgenetic Alteration...Animal Appearance...what bioware items can be used under this heading as transgenetic alterations?

Most bioware organs that reproduce animal abilities or features (gamemaster's discretion, as usual) should be available as transgenic alterations - meaning organs that could believably occur in nature. Eventually SOTA will expand this to pretty much any type of bioware organ, but that's the next step. However, symbionts and similar vat-grown organisms that are independent of the host are obviously not included.

QUOTE
3. Does each bioware item have separate costs in nuyen and essence, I mean for transgenetic alteration - animal.?

No. The transgenic alteration to produce bioware should have approximately the same costs in both nuyen and essence, however, instalation times are exceedingly long. Of course, it is up to the GM to determine if clinics with the necessary facilities and technology are available in the first place (using the medical providers list we included as a guideline) and whether or not their rarity affects the cost

QUOTE
4. What types of medical care places have immersion tanks ie Shops, Facilities etc?Or does it require a Genetech Shop, or facility etc?

Most beta or better clinics with a focus on geneware will have the necessary equipment (though certainly not all). I would say full body, human-sized immersion tanks would require a facility, though a shop might include a single vat.
Synner
QUOTE (apple)
I would like to repeat my question, for a more or less official answer smile.gif:

- Cyberlimb armor: do I add it to my armor jacket like a helmet? Or do I use it like layered armor? Does it add to my armor limit (constitution x2)? Does it get averaged (armor /6)?

This will be addressed in upcoming FAQ (and possibly errata). As soon as I have a full answer for you I'll post it.

QUOTE
- Does the traumadamper and the platelet factories both reduce physical and stun drain from spellcasting, conjuring, binding etc. by one box?

The former is intended to work only on trauma - violent damage - inflicted on the user from an external source. It should not reduce damage from Fatigue or magical Drain. I would also extend this ruling to platelet factories since these are essentially designed to counter bleeding -though obviously a case could be made for Physical Drain.
WearzManySkins
@Synner

Thanks my error I was not clear enough, I was mainly interested in the build part, and what would be required to build such.

I agree on the vat grown organisms.

WMS
Rotbart van Dainig
The pain editor lets you ignore all stun damage and keeps you from falling unconcious.
Damage compensators / Qualities / Drugs / Painresistence let you ingore their Rating in damage boxes... so you fall unconciuos later, too?
That would be the about only reason to get Damage Compensators / Painresistence in the double digits...
knasser
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (apple @ Aug 26 2007, 11:48 AM)
I would like to repeat my question, for a more or less official answer smile.gif:

- Cyberlimb armor: do I add it to my armor jacket like a helmet? Or do I use it like layered armor? Does it add to my armor limit (constitution x2)? Does it get averaged (armor /6)?

This will be addressed in upcoming FAQ (and possibly errata). As soon as I have a full answer for you I'll post it.


This is still an open question? I thought it had been settled. I can wait for the FAQ, but Apple actually asked a multi-part question there and if it would be possible to answer just one part of it, that would be useful. Is the armour averaged over the whole body i.e. add up armour points and divide by six, or cumulative? I've been playing cumulative and found it balanced okay, but would love to know what the official stance is.

But if that were the part of the question that couldn't be answered until the FAQ, no problem.

-K.
Synner
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 3 2007, 05:42 PM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 3 2007, 02:58 PM)
QUOTE (apple @ Aug 26 2007, 11:48 AM)
Cyberlimb armor

This will be addressed in upcoming FAQ (and possibly errata). As soon as I have a full answer for you I'll post it.

This is still an open question? I thought it had been settled.

FrankTrollman offered his interpretation of the rule on how armor is calculated, and in an unofficial capacity I'm inclined to agree with him (cumulative for the record).

However, as you've pointed out, Apple asked a multi-part question - one which I've actually forwarded to the person responsible for the rules to clarify his intent and to see whether this issue warrants errata or a FAQ entry. Pending that all I can offer are unofficial responses which may be overruled by errata and/or a FAQ.
WearzManySkins
@Synner

Question is this the two different descriptions for each, one speaks of the costs of genetic enhancement(Genecrafted) and the other quality is costs of transgenic genetic enhancements(Genetic Heritage) both reference to page 72.

Is this worded differently to be used differently or just another way of saying the same intent?

Ie what I am asking is if a character has both Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage

Does he get 20% or 40% cost reduction on Reprint?

WMS
The Jopp
Is the Radar Sensor cyberware a 360 degree radar or a 90 degree radar?

That is, can it see everything around me or do i only get the benefits in the direction i look?

If the second is correct would it give me a 360 radar view with the Eyeband cyberware if i choose to have a 360 degree vision.
Rotbart van Dainig
Radar is always directional... that's why those dishes spin.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Radar is always directional... that's why those dishes spin.

Duh, good point.

Still, it makes me wonder about the 360 degree vision, could i have my Radar Sensor to spin with my POV?
Rotbart van Dainig
It's an extra sensor, installed in your head... not Eyeware. Unless you make your head spin, you won't get 360° out of it...
Tycho
may be it spins independently inside your head?

cya
Tycho
Irian
Would be possible, but somehow I think it would mention 360° vision. As the text doesn't mention this, I would say it's just in the looking direction.
WearzManySkins
Actually a dish would not be needed, I would hope that a phased array radar would be used for this. You would need only two phased array "antennas" one in facing front, and the other facing backward. From these two, you can get 360 degree coverage.
Zhan Shi
I must agree with Doc Funk. Detailed rules for various cybernetic sexual organs are uneccessary. As is the profanity. And I believe that previous SR sourcebooks were more entertaining to read because of their use of the interactive posting format, which seems to have greatly diminished in SR4; think of the exchanges between Sniling Bandit and Wolfman in...it was either Fields of Fire or the Street Samurai Catalog. Those issues aside, I was impressed with Augmentation, especially the art. It would be interesting to find out what exactly DID happen to Hatchetman.
Zhan Shi
"Smiling". Bloody typoes.
Fortune
There's actually more shadowtalk in the SR4 books than there was in the equivalent SR3 releases, due to the fact that SR3 did not contain any shadowtalk in the main core book or rules supplements.
Zhan Shi
Yeah, I keep confusing SR2 products with SR3. I should have specified SR2 products, such as Cyberpirates (THE greatest SR book, IMO), and California Free State.
Zhan Shi
"Typos". Frag.

My apologies, Ran.
Adam
Emergence has a whole lotta' in-character bickering, too ... wink.gif
Ranneko
Zian Shi, there is an edit button, if you typo something, use that rather than making another post.
Dashifen
The Radar Sensor clearly seems to indicate that it can be used to replace your vision. Is this intended to provide mages line of sight for the purposes of casting spells? It seems to me that the age old "it was paid for with essence" rule seems to kick in, but having mages drop spells onto targets due through walls with radar seems ... in a word ... craptacular smile.gif
toturi
I have 2 rules mechanics/writer- intent questions:

1) Can the Antidote spell counter Bedlam and other biowarfare weapons? Is Bedlam intended to be only counterable by O-cells/binder?

2) What is the rating for cutters and shrikes with respect to hunter nanites?
Synner
Sorry for the delay, I'm currently swamped.

QUOTE
1) Can the Antidote spell counter Bedlam and other biowarfare weapons? Is Bedlam intended to be only counterable by O-cells/binder?

Given the nature of Bedlam I'd allow it, though I'd probably add a modifier for the exotic nature of the pathogen.

QUOTE
2) What is the rating for cutters and shrikes with respect to hunter nanites?

Minor oversight here. For weaponized nanotech use Power for Nano hunter Opposed Tests (yeah, it means they're relatively weak against weapons grade nanotech).
WearzManySkins
@Synner

I have a question on wording in Augmentation.

Example 1
Page 91, under PuSHeD, "...Characters receive a +1 modifier to Logic-Linked skill tests."

Example 2
Page 91, under Qualia, "....Characters with this modification receive a +1 dice pool modifier to all Intuition-linked skill tests.

Example 2 is fairly clear to me, characters gain an additional one extra dice, but example 1, does this mean I have Logic of 4 with a First Aide of 4, I roll 8 dice +1 to the numbers on each dice? ie a 1 becomes a 2, a 4 becomes a 5, etc?

Are these two examples of wording that is not consistent? or does each example have a different meaning, that is why the wording is different?

WMS
the_dunner
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
Example 1
Page 91, under PuSHeD, "...Characters receive a +1 modifier to Logic-Linked skill tests."

example 1, does this mean I have Logic of 4 with a First Aide of 4, I roll 8 dice +1 to the numbers on each dice? ie a 1 becomes a 2, a 4 becomes a 5, etc?

I'm not Synner, but I did write that. It should be dice pool modifier. No, you do not add to the numbers on each die.
Moon-Hawk
And just for clarity, a "dice pool modifier" is not affected by attribute/skill caps, correct?
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
And just for clarity, a "dice pool modifier" is not affected by attribute/skill caps, correct?

Also not Synner, but correct. Caps only apply when something adds directly to the Skill or Attribute, not the Pool itself. smile.gif
Moon-Hawk
Thanks; just checking.
So there's still no way to hit your Intuition cap. Or is there?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 22 2007, 12:26 AM)
And just for clarity, a "dice pool modifier" is not affected by attribute/skill caps, correct?

Also not Synner, but correct. Caps only apply when something adds directly to the Skill or Attribute, not the Pool itself. smile.gif

...that's nice. So Violet (that's 3) can still get that Cerebral boosting 3 (on top of Genetic Adaptation [Logic] and Exceptional Attribute [Logic]) to have an Augmented logic of 11 (we use the "alternate" Attribute + Skill rule for Hacking tests).
Moon-Hawk
Right. And by my count Violet is still one point below her augmented cap, which the logic boosting nanites,, encephalon, and PuSHeD (randomly capitalized) don't even touch.
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
So there's still no way to hit your Intuition cap. Or is there?

Not that I can find. smile.gif
Fortune
D'uh! Ignore this post.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Sep 21 2007, 04:46 AM)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 20 2007, 10:55 PM)
Example 1
Page 91, under PuSHeD, "...Characters receive a +1 modifier to Logic-Linked skill tests."

example 1, does this mean I have Logic of 4 with a First Aide of 4, I roll 8 dice +1 to the numbers on each dice? ie a 1 becomes a 2, a 4 becomes a 5, etc?

I'm not Synner, but I did write that. It should be dice pool modifier. No, you do not add to the numbers on each die.

@The Dunner

OK thanks that is why I was asking, so it is something for the errata then.

@KK
If you have Genetic Adaptation [Logic] and Exceptional Attribute [Logic] then the max Augmented attribute is a 12.

If you take Neural Amplifiers-Neocortical rating 3 that will add 3 dice to logic-linked related skills and then use PuSHed that will add another 1 dice so a total of 4 additional dice, for logic-linked tests.

The encephalon is not as cost effective as PuSHed is in essence cost and nuyen costs.

As for the Intuition cap there is no "wares" as RAW that add to towards the cap, but there is always Karma to get there. biggrin.gif

WMS
i101
I miss steroids in SR4. Expected them in the Augmentations but unfortunately I got disappointed. Any houserules on using steroids in SR4?

biggrin.gif
Aaron
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
As for the Intuition cap there is no "wares" as RAW that add to towards the cap, but there is always Karma to get there. biggrin.gif

And magic.
Fortune
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
but there is always Karma to get there.

Do you allow the Karma purchase of Attributes above the Racial Maximum? If not, how would Karma help?
WearzManySkins
@Fortune
BBB page 264, Improving Attributes. "...Characters can only improve Physical and Mental attributes up to their natural metatype maximum (6 plus metatype attribute modifier), unless they possesses the Exceptional Attribute quality for that attribute."

I would say that Genetic Optimization would be in the same category as Exceptional Attribute, so if both are being used then the attribute can be raised by 2 to a 8 in the case of humans.

As a house rule a GM "could" allow karma to be used to go to augmented maximum, it would be a major Karma sink too. biggrin.gif

WMS
Kyoto Kid
...I think the treatment is Genetic Adaptation.

As to the houserule, I could see that considering mundanes are not karma whores like awakened characters are.
Fortune
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
@Fortune
BBB page 264, Improving Attributes. "...Characters can only improve Physical and Mental attributes up to their natural metatype maximum (6 plus metatype attribute modifier), unless they possesses the Exceptional Attribute quality for that attribute."

I would say that Genetic Optimization would be in the same category as Exceptional Attribute, so if both are being used then the attribute can be raised by 2 to a 8 in the case of humans.

I understand that. It was not what I was asking.

QUOTE
As a house rule a GM "could" allow karma to be used to go to augmented maximum ...


This is what I was talking about.

I have no problems with house rules as long as they are presented as such. The implication I got from your previous post was that you seemed to think that it was actually a canon rule that a player could use Karma to improve their character's Attribute(s) up past the Racial Maximum all the way to the Augmented Maximum (which is what we were discussing).

Clearly this is not the case.
WearzManySkins
@KK
It is Genetic Optimization, page 89 in Augmentation.

@Fortune
quote AH "My advantageous mongoose masturbates with abandon over your mother's skeleton."
Kerberos
I have 2 question about the Type O quality.

1) If I buy alpha bioware does it still count as only delta and is therefore at 50% essence or do the reductions stack to 70% reduction. I tried reading the previous discussion, but it wasn't clear to me.

2) Does the bioware only count as delta for the purpose of essence reduction or does it also count as delta for other purposes? I'm thinking of whether scanners would detect it as easilly as for normal bioware, or whether it would be as hard as for delta grade?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 21 2007, 11:36 AM)
@KK
It is Genetic Optimization, page 89 in Augmentation.

..sorry my bad. at work, don't have books in front of me.

So what then is Genetic Adaptation?
Fortune
QUOTE (Kerberos @ Sep 22 2007, 03:57 AM)
1) If I buy alpha bioware does it still count as only delta and is therefore at 50% essence or do the reductions stack to 70% reduction. I tried reading the previous discussion, but it wasn't clear to me.

If you buy Alpha (non-cultured) Bioware when you possess the Type O Quality, you are wasting your money. There is no further discount. Cultured Bioware is unaffected by the Quality, and therefore the different Grades of that Bioware will still make a difference.

QUOTE
2) Does the bioware only count as delta for the purpose of essence reduction or does it also count as delta for other purposes? I'm thinking of whether scanners would detect it as easilly as for normal bioware, or whether it would be as hard as for delta grade?


I don't believe this is stated anywhere, but personally I would go with the Delta reading, as the organs/bioware is supposed to blend with your body almost seamlessly.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 21 2007, 11:36 AM)
@KK
It is Genetic Optimization, page 89 in Augmentation.

..sorry my bad. at work, don't have books in front of me.

So what then is Genetic Adaptation?

@KK
The closest I can find in Augmentation is Environmental MicroAdaption ie Cold Adaption etc.

@Kerberos
Fortune is correct on question 1, there is a long discussion here in Augmentation Q&A on that exact question, search for it using "Type O Quality".

As for question 2, I agree with Fortune on his answer.

WMS
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Sep 21 2007, 01:01 PM)
So what then is Genetic Adaptation?

@KK
The closest I can find in Augmentation is Environmental MicroAdaption ie Cold Adaption etc.

WMS

...that's where I saw it.

Haven't had a chance to just sit down and read through the PDF yet.
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