I agree--hope everything's ok with Hydro.

Thvor, Torley will get another shot at learning the language.

I get the feeling that the boat ride is going to be long, uncomfortable, and mostly uneventful - at least internally.

I was just coming on to say basically the same things the Necrogigas and Mercy did in their IC posts. That Clem was going to be withdrawn for nearly the entirety of the trip because she is torn between killing these pigs and not screwing over the group.

I will pose an OOC question to the group: How do the players feel about killing the pirates after we get to Lagos? I know Clementine is contemplating it, at least the "captain." And I want to get player input as to how far to go, or not.

Snow would actually not really consider that option on her own. She is too used to dealing with this sort of criminal that can provide goods or services. In her mind, the pirates could become a useful contact in the future.

Not to say that she would not support her companions if something goes down, but her initial vote would be no.

I appreciate the character insight Mercy (it was going to be my followup), but right now I am looking for player insight.

I don't know you people. Haven't hung out with you for weeks, maybe months before this game. I have no idea how easily y'all can separate character morality from your own morality, or even where your personal morality lies.

If you, Mercy (Just because I need someone as an example), were to tell me that you aren't comfortable with murder, then I would take that off the table - no problem. There would be a lot of threatening, maybe some violence, but I can work with it being a little to "ultra-violent" for people.

Maybe we are all experienced RPers here, but it can be easy to forget that while nearly all people who enter a game can put aside their personal moralilties when dealing with characters that are propped up as "the bad guys," sideline characters like these pirates (who might be considered allies) aren't always so easy to separate.

So, for everyone else, I'll take character insight for sure (it'll save me asking about that later). But right now I am looking for player insight.

Do as you will Titan, keep in mind though Jane specifically told the group that she didn't want a trail of bodies in Lagos.

I haven't forgotten. I also haven't even got up to the point where I weigh out if it is a good idea or not from the character perspective.

Sorry, I interpreted the question wrong. I am personally not a fan of murder, but these are very bad people and I personally have no problem killing them. I also know that this a game and have already separated me from Snow. She is a Vory soldier and has done some horrible things in the past, but she also looks at that s from tho position that these could be contacts.

Sammy doesn't see the need to kill these guys, unless they try to screw them over. In fact, she only has one lethal spell and that's fireball, which is a very bad choice on a boat in the middle of the ocean (more boats have been sunk due to fire than any other reason).

As to me personally, if I were to live in shadowrun, I'd probably fall under the wageslave category, so that has little to do with what's going on at the moment.

Okay, so far - if I am not mistaken - if falls like this:

The players aren't against it (still waiting for Thvor to weigh in), but all of the characters aren't certain it is a good idea.

That tells me were to go next.

Thank you all.

Sorry, was busy all weekend; just now getting caught up.

As a gamer, I don't have too much of an issue separating personal morality from in-game. If I did, I think I'd have an issue playing ShadowRun in the first place, since the starting assumption is that our characters are willing to work outside the law.

Sam, however, has an issue with fighting and bloodshed. He tolerates O'Connor's violent tendencies as a necessary evil, since it's saved him a few times, but I don't think he'll ever approve of it. Sam has seen that Con is damn good at what he does and can appreciate the skill, but that's about as far as that goes. Of course, Sam's more than willing to talk someone into ruining themselves; usually financially, though there's at least one instance in his backstory where he probably incited a suicide. Sam wouldn't go for straight-out murdering the captain, but would be perfectly fine with arranging a mutiny attempt that could do the job, for instance.

...on an unrelated note: Crossbow, am I correct that the language the sailors are using is different from the Yoruba Sam managed to learn?

Yes, the language is called Igbo.

For a run-down on Lagos, I would suggest Feral Cities. I've done a tabletop campaign in Lagos (a self-written one by the GM) and I play a character from Lagos in another PbP, so I've read that part a couple of times.

The Yoruba and the Igbo are the two main tribes in that region and, surprise surprise, they don't really like each other.

Sam, my hero. Thank you for thinking of Snow. It hurts, but it was a price she had to pay for the role, and Con needed to do it,

Not an issue with me. I get it. I was just looking to "get to know" the other players in the group.

So the final rundown is (barring any slip ups on my part):

None of the players are against it.

All of the characters aren't for it - except maybe O'Connor, and even he may be uncharacteristically not interested.

O'Connor is not a fan of these people, but Jane already made her position clear on the matter and the beatings were Snow's idea. He's pretty wound up at the moment, but not enough to risk his cut of the payday.

Anyone else see the twisted humor in the fact that the same NPC who said "don't leave a trail of bodies," is also the one who said "don't worry about how you are getting out, I already have that planned."

In other words, how Clementine should have heard it (if her player wasn't taking the other players input into account): "Go ahead and slaughter all of these pirates on this boat. You have no reason to ever think of them again."

THAT IS NOT WHAT JANE IS SAYING!

That's an...interesting interpretation. Not really sure I'm following the logic, though.

The pirates were not Jane's route in--she had a plane lined up, but that fell through. But just because someone isn't immediately useful/part of the intended plan doesn't mean you can just eliminate them.

The logic is super simple.

Ever since O'Connor had to kick the crap out of a woman (a teammate no less) just to "play nice" with these drekstains, Clementine has wanted to end them. (Her defining moment as a young Yakuza was "handling" a rival enforcer roughing up a working girl with "efficiency" and "style.")

While they were useful, she did her best to avoid them.

Now that she has the realization that they may be needed to get back out of Lagos, Jane bitchily tells her not to waste her time thinking about how to get out.
((EDITed to add: In case it isn't clear, Clementine is thinking about getting out of Lagos, and it is a reason to not piss off the pirates. On top of that, Jane bitchily tells Clementine twice to not waste her time thinking about getting out.))

In other words, a vengeful, semi-feminist, Ork would have zero reason to care what happens to them.

Interpret that as you feel like.

We better not kill those, as the only place we can do that is after we arrive at the docks in Lagos (none of us can drive the boat). While gunfights in Lagos aren't all that noticable, there are some considerations.
If I recall correctly these guys are Igbo, meaning they are of the same tribe as the Area Boys in Lagos. Some will be at the docks to meet this boat and they can quickly call in more help than we have bullets. So for now let's play nice and we'll see later.

Snow's damage is stun, right?

You don't have to tell me.

I even came up with a way to work into the character that wasn't forced. Now... Should Jane continue to be a Grade A cunt and tell Clementine that caring about the pirates conditions are above her pay grade a third time... Things will change.




Yes, unfortunately. The only way to heal it is through First Aid and / or rest.

One of these days I am going to figure out how I seem to always have issues translating things to players.

Problem is healthy paranoia is a good thing in a shadowrunner.

Well, I'll be honest and admit that Jane's "don't worry about extraction" attitude tickles my paranoia a bit--guess I've seen too many movies where the hero is sent into a perilous situation, told "we'll get you out when the job's done", only to find that the extraction plan is more along the lines of "dead men tell no tales".

I've been playing with you long enough that I'm willing to trust that our game isn't like that...though there's that small corner of my mind that always wonders.

It's also an inherent problem of a PbP. If you're around a table (or in a skype video chat) you see faces, hear voices, see body language and stuff like that. It can make a huge difference in how things are perceived by the players (or by the GM if the players write things down).

I don't see any real solution for that, except maybe to put more descriptions in the posts.

Anyway, I don't think any of the other characters are all that happy about what happened between Snow and O'Connor. I know Sammy isn't, but sometimes things happen. And technically speaking all our characters are criminals. I think Clem also had to do things for the Yakuza she didn't really like.
Also, this is not the last of such things we will see in Lagos. As I said, I know the SR version of it quite well (and I've seen some documentaries about the RL version, which isn't all that nice either) and it's not a nice place. The Seattle Barrens are a nice vacation spot compared to most of Lagos.

It'll probably help to stop assuming it has anything to do with paranoia.

See, I was instructed that etiquette is very important to Clementine. And Jane is treating her like she is a dumb thug who can't even be trusted to think.

To make matters worse, even though Clementine was assigned the role of "Tactical Leader," in spite of not having any qualifications to be so (admittedly, she didn't ask for it), when she tries to approach a situation tactically - not one character backed her up besides the new member.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the characters are still stuck in a situation that they can't do anything. Not one thing. Only one character can even communicate with the pirates, and she gets the shit beat out of her whenever she does so. No one brought a deck of cards so we can't even play solitaire, much less strip poker. Every player has checked into the thread at least once since we got on the boat... And we are still on the boat.


For what appears to be only because the GM likes making the players sit around and twiddle their thumbs.

I was trying to give everyone time to address the whole Con/Snow thing, as well as to reinforce the setting. It has also been a bit difficult for me to find time advance the story properly.

By the way, that whole tactical leader/rebellion thing was an organic PC thing, I had very little to do with it.

Professionalism is what I tried to stress with Clem, not so much ettiqutte.

I can respect all of those points.
Primarily:


If you made mention of that anywhere else, I apologize. I don't remember seeing it.


But here is the thing on the other points.

What player character really wants to pour salt in O'Connor's wounds / kick him when he is down? At best, the characters can pick up on the fact he is torn up about it. At worst, they fear he has lost his shit.
At best, not one character can risk the play we have made by trying to console O'Connor in front of the pirates. At worst, they fear even looking his way.
There really isn't any way to address that now.

Professionalism still kind of works with what I posted. If I had know that earlier, it would have been easier to get to the point that I had. (There would have been less internal debating on slaughtering the pirates.)

I never meant to claim you had anything to do with the tactical leader thing. I was simple pointing out, I already expressed my desire to get off this train wreck, and only one player has done anything to try and change my mind. And that player is one of the more recent acquisitions form your groups long standing tradition of losing players over, and over, and over again.

You can't take the blame for every failing here, Crossbow.

This so called train wreck will be five years old come January. In my experience most pbp games fall apart within months, so we're doing something right.

We've lost people along the way sure, but real life takes precedence. Hydroraven told Crossbow he was bowing out because of such issues. Rhat was a prolific poster on the Catalyst forums so for him to just abruptly stop logging in, in my estimation, means something catastrophic must have happened to him. So fuck you, you don't get to use our friends' troubles to take shots at us.

Stop acting like being apart of New Beginnings is such a heavy burden and you're doing us a great favor. If you don't want to be here, then don't be. See yourself out and don't let the door hit your hoop on the way out.

You post that as if I asked to be here. I was recruited due to the ~50% player turnover rate this game group has been having.

So if you can't pull up your big boy pants and suck it up. Don't try and lay it out on me. But don't pretend you actually did anything improve the new recruit experience.

Why should I come begging and crawling to you when you made it clear from the beginning that you didn't want to be here, didn't like us, and had nothing but contempt for us?

You literally asked to be here. Crossbow didn't message random people, he put out a wanted ad. You responded to that ad.

Okay, cease fire.

Titan, I am a big tent kind of guy, so while I really do appreciate you jumping in to help out, this may not be working out.

To clarify a few points, yes, you were invited, but if you are under the impression that you are indispensable and that we are in any danger of folding without your support, you are mistaken.

My game may have taken lumps along the way, but these players have been with me from the beginning, and they are some of the best gamers I know. I have avoided getting crossed up in player interactions, but I guess that this is getting unavoidable.

It was your job as the new player to make nice, you chose not to do that. Passive aggressive nonsense and disrespectful commentary are not going to do the job.

If you can't bring yourself to apologize to my other players and try to play nice, I guess we can simply part ways. Your choice, but I will not have you talking badly about my players or my game anymore.

Your call.

It certainly doesn't hurt my feelings.

I certainly am sorry if I have helped cause any problems. I have zero problems in how Con reacted to the situation that I created. Snow is not suffering much and has no idea that Con has a past that makes this hard on him. In her opinion (and mine) he did exactly as he should have. Snow is a big girl and has been at this dance before. In her mind, this was a natural flow of how people in this part of the world look at things. Not only that, but she was trained extensively to be a corporate joygirl, and that meant learning to survive this sort of thing.

Neither the player nor the character have any beef with the way Con hit her. In her mind it is not abuse, but necessary to further the team's options. She would even have accepted it if Con had loaned her to the pirate captain for his use on the boat in order to sweeten the deal and gain some sort of benefit for the rest of the team.

But I am sorry if my actions have caused any harm to any character or the team. Do we, as a group, want me to not continue in this vein while we are in Lagos? I do think that it is safe to assume from what we have been told that the women there are treated pretty much like chattel and do we hurt our cause if we do not have at least one woman who is just that? I happen to think we actually need to keep Snow in this position for a couple of reasons: First, I think it helps our cause with the locals, who would expect it. Second, Snow is prepared to accept it and what happens, and is probably the only female in the group that is. If we maintain the illusion, we can allow the other women to be stronger. Snow is big enough to know that the team does not hate or necessarily want to hurt her, but she feels it is needed and she can recover the stun and bruises heal and she has no hard feelings.

I will, of course, stop this course of action if the other players feel strongly enough about it. Just please know in advance that I am not taking it personally at all.

Titan,

This game started with 8 players--very big for a PBP. Crossbow handled that well, and wrangled us through a very fun introductory adventure. He then asked us if we wanted to continue--five of us agreed and started a new adventure. In the course of that, we lost one player who just disappeared from the forum; as Necro indicated, this was unusual, and we hope that player is ok. Crossbow found a replacement and wrote them into the story, and that's the group that we had right up until Hydroraven ran into personal issues and had to drop.

I'm giving you this history because you claim that we have a 50% drop rate. While technically true (actually, if you include all of the original 8, our drop rate is much higher), it's very misleading. Three of us have been with Crossbow since the beginning, and the two who left mid-adventure did so because of life, not because of issues with the game, the characters, or how the game is being run.

From the time you joined us, you've been concerned about running Clem in a specific way. You started by referencing a system that I'm not familiar with as a shorthand for how you thought her character should be (which you've since deleted); as far as I can tell, only one other player actually understood the reference. Crossbow and farothel tried to help. Your immediate next post was a passive-aggressive threat to drop because you don't like the characters; the only one you mentioned by name is Clem herself, though you'd already made it clear that you didn't really understand how she'd been played; you left it wide open for the rest of us to wonder if our character was also on your personal shit-list. Mercy responded by suggesting that you should feel free to adapt her personality to something you were comfortable with, at which point you suggested murdering the entire pirate crew.

This suggestion shocked me, largely because I'd assumed that one of the "fun-sucking" characters you'd complained about could have been Con, due to his periodic psychopathic behavior (which I've had trouble accepting at points). But even Con has never suggested the sort of cold-blooded carnage that you felt was perfectly acceptable. If that's your idea of what makes a fun game, it's certainly not mine.

But if you can't be arsed to tell us what your problems are before threatening to drop, pardon us if we can't be arsed to peer into our crystal balls, hold seances, and consult a deck of tarot cards to figure out what your issue is. We've made it clear that our team are not murder-hoboes; if that's hatyour looking for, feel free to look elsewhere.

Mercy, I have no problems with the way you portray Snow. Of course, I know from other games we both play in that you tend to have characters who are ... well, off in some way . And in my almost 20 years of roleplaying I've seen more weird characters, so that's not the issue. But I do understand for someone new it might be getting used to. Also taking over an established character in an established group can't be easy.

My character, Sammy, feels that Snow shouldn't do that, but she also thinks that Snow is a grown woman capable of making her own decisions. But if we have to do this again (or show you with a face full of bruises), I can do that with an illusion spell as well.

Sammy can't be in that role, since she's a mage and in Lagos that's something worth killing for (mages are respected there, even if they are female, but can also be targets of extractions, which is why I haven't been using any on the boat).
As soon as we get some XP again, I'm going to search for the spell 'purify water' (or whatever it's called). That spell alone can probably pay most of our bribes in Lagos.

Mercy, as a player I don't have a problem with the play Snow made. I actually like where it's heading. Part of the appeal of O'Connor to me as a roleplayer is the challenge of trying to bring depth to a character, that on paper, is extremely thin.

Everything that brings more dept to a character and makes for a more enjoyable experience for the player is to be considered at least. If it diminishes the joy for other players, you might want to discuss, but as Mercy has indicated he has no issues with it, I would say go for it.

As for the other players, at least for me it's something that brings a bit more dept to Sammie as well, as she has to deal with what's happening, even if it's not happening to her.

Of course, it's not appropriate for everywhere in Lagos and I certainly wouldn't do it near the Daughters of Yemaya, as they are a group who fights (and often violently) for oppressed women and children.

Thank you for the support. I also think that these experiences are bringing depth to the characters, even those that are only watching, because they have to come to terms with their feelings over what is going on. And I disagree with the idea that Con is a thin two-dimensional character. I like most of what is there and perhaps together, all of us can work on helping each other work on rounding the PCs out and making them more real.

Is it OK to look at the Lagos source material? If so, I would like to get it and see what sort of information Snow is supposed to be digging up. Thanks for the warning about the Daughters of Yemaya. We do not need to piss of people just because.

LOL I should have read the IC first. Good post for Con. Perhaps he and Snow should talk this out?

Feral Cities has all the info you could want on Lagos, and more than a bit that you could wish you hadn't seen. BTW, Jane wasn't kidding, her contact, Black Mamba, did write the Shadowland datafile on Lagos.

Are we allowed to look at the source material?

I'm not sure if we're allowed, but I did.
-I had a campaign in Lagos a couple of years ago with my tabletop group
-My BBB character, Na'Nele, is from Lagos, so I had to refresh my memory to write her background.

It's the same if you take a character from outside of Seatle and bring it in. The player will already know about the Barrens and such things, even though the character probably doesn't (depending on where exactly he/she gets in).

EDIT: normally the Hawala tokens themselves can also be used as a form of currency, if I'm not mistaken (and are better than cash money). Not that any of our characters would know that.

Anything that is on shadowland is accessible source material for study, especially for Snow, so yes you can.

My computer took a crap on me, so I'm using my phone for the time being. Does anyone have Arsenal on hand?

I think I have all books on PDF and I have most in dead tree, so shoot.

As indicated, O'Connor plans on adding some accessories to the AKs. I need prices (though those are probably variable to the local economy) for a few items and confirm which slots they take up and that they only need an armorer kit to install.

Sling (should be null slot)
Gas vent system (barrel slot)

Smartgun system (top slot)
Foregrip (bottom slot)

Laser sight (top slot)
Grenade launcher (bottom slot)

Can you also give me the stats for the AK?

AK97: damage 6P, AP -1, SA/BF/FA, RC -, ammo 38 ©, cost 500
sling (no slot, cost 10, kit, treshold 4)
gas vent system (barrel; 2, cost 200, shop, treshold 4; 3, cost 400, shop, treshold 4, 2 slots)
smartgun system (top/under, cost 500, shop, treshold
foregrip (under, cost 100, shop, treshold
laser sight (top/under, cost 100, kit, treshold 4)
grenade launcher (underbarrel weapon, cost as weapon, facility, treshold 20)

You can't put all of those mods on one weapon. Besides, if you have a smartgun, a laser sight won't help any further, so you don't have to install both.
If you really want a grenade launcher, take the AK98 (arsenal p26), which has the exact same stats as the AK97 but comes with build in underbarrel grenade launcher and costs 1000
If it was my weapon, I would add the smartgun, the gas vent, foregrip (if you don't take the grenade launcher) and sling.

Availability for weapons should not be an issue in Lagos, as all weapons are readily available (nukes might take a couple of weeks though). prices are probably also slightly lower than in other parts of the world due to larger availability, but as an Oyabos (foreigner) you probably pay more anyway.

We have two AKs. There's also a distiction between weapon accessories and mods. Accessories can be added or removed. Mods are integrated into the weapon. Since you're giving thresholds, then those are from the mods section, if memory serves me right. Can you double check to see if there are accessory versions of the grenade launcher and foregrip and if the prices for the accessory versions of the rest of the items are the same in the core book? And please see if there are any rules for installing accessories that are distinct from mods.