Technomancers were times better as NPC otaku. Now all the mystery is gone, replaced with hurf-durf matrix mages.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I'd wanted Technomancers since 1st edition. I saw no reason why humanity and the cycle of magic couldn't adapt to technology, and the technomancers were the perfect bridge of the divide. It was already established that the matrix allowed you to project your consciousness into it through the use of technology, it wasn't just 'I can see the net' -- otherwise people couldn't be lost in the machine.

And if the matrix is a focal point for human imagination and awareness, then it would probably have a resonance - an astral presence in some fashion. However, it does not have as much human tradition and the weight of history to give it the strength that we have for magic. It it, however, developing this. We're starting to get preconceptions of what the matrix is, we're adding urban legend and myth to it. There's popular movies, video games, and books defining 'the matrix' as a place and an idea, rather than a thing. Again, this gives strength to the matrix as a concept, and as such, again, it probably would gain astral presence because of this. Given a hundred years or more in-setting, and technomancers would probably be a tradition of magic just like any other, as the understanding of how technomancers work expands.

Hell, consider some of the realms that exist in astral space - the underworld? It exists, but did it exist before anyone could conceptualize the idea of 'the land of the dead'? Most cultures did not have such a concept for quite some time, they thought that dead people were either lost, or trapped in their own bodies, or simply vanished. Were you able to visit the underworld before people knew it existed? Possibly.

In Harlequin's Back, you visit an astral realm that looks like the wild west but with blood magic. That, to me, indicates that there's a lot more in astral space than anyone is aware of - it also let me play with the ideas of what realms people could visit when on an astral quest, or simply exploring the metaplanes. You want to go visit the Japanese heavens? Sure. Do you want to visit the Greek underworld? Of course. But I took it further, and let the PCs visit a Victorian masquerade ball controlled by a shadow spirit, with back-door passages into the underworld as part of an astral quest. Because, why not?

And if those exist... 'an archive of all electronic knowledge' isn't that far of a stretch.

This post is retarded

artificial constructs like the Matrix are outright abhorrent to the flow of mana.

Hence why technomancers using the magician ruleset is dumb.

pointless tracking of additional attributes that no other character type requires, creating unnecessary complexity in an archtype

One that, mind you, isn't even filling a niche as a new role, but is rather competing with deckers for the same roles in the party.

Hence why technomancers using the magician ruleset is dumb.

Of course there would need to be serious changes to technos and all that for this idea to work. But I like how it dovetails cyber usage and Resonance scores, which seem like they should be directly related rather than inversely. And it keeps the technos from having almost the exact same mechanic as mages.

I don't know. There is already an archetype that uses negative essence, the cyberzombie.

Cyber costs Essence, because mana can't flow through technology. Basic concept of the setting.

This post is retarded, and skips entirely past the whole point of the tech/magic divide in Shadowrun. Cyber costs Essence, because mana can't flow through technology. Basic concept of the setting. No matter how much you want to stretch the idea of astral realms, it still doesn't get around the basic fact of the setting that manmade artificial constructs like the Matrix are outright abhorrent to the flow of mana.

Hence why technomancers using the magician ruleset is dumb. By the game's on terms, they can't be magicians, therefore working like them on a systemic level just means a pointless tracking of additional attributes that no other character type requires, creating unnecessary complexity in an archtype. One that, mind you, isn't even filling a niche as a new role, but is rather competing with deckers for the same roles in the party.

You'd get a technomancer way more versatile than either a decker AND a street sam.

SR5 development: The reconfigured Matrix and the return of cyberdecks

In the last post on the Matrix, we talked about trying to simplify Matrix rules and bring them more in line with mechanics for the other areas of Shadowrun. Now we need to cover a little bit about how the Matrix is changing and what that means to the people who hack it.

Around the time Jet Set came out, I ran my gaming group through one of the adventures in that book focusing on Danielle de la Mar and her efforts to make a “safer” Matrix. After the session, the player in the group who has a technomancer character looked at me and said “That woman’s dangerous.”

And so she is. While the Matrix is not changing between Fourth Edition and Fifth Edition quite as dramatically as it did between Third and Fourth, it is changing. The major change involves the megacorporations realizing that a free and open Matrix does not serve their interests, and that Danielle de la Mar and her ilk provide the perfect excuse to clamp down on things in the name of public safety.

As mentioned in Storm Front, the Corporate Court is introducing a whole bunch of new protocols as part of this new Matrix. Old commlinks and their programs are no longer equipped to deal with the level of security these protocols present. Instead, if hackers want to be able to break into this new system and mess around, they need a new tool. It will be relatively small, discreet, and wireless-enabled, and it will have the tools and capabilities needed to do battle with the new security structure of the Matrix. All the device needed was a name, and we decided there was no need to invent a new one. We went back to the classic name: cyberdecks.

So why bring back cyberdecks? A lot of reasons. On the simple side, it’s because we like the name, and because we like calling people “deckers” (in Fifth Edition, “hackers” is an umbrella term for anyone who messes with the Matrix; the subsets of this group are deckers, who use devices to do this, and technomancers, who do not). Additionally, we wanted decking to feel both difficult and special–it’s not something just anyone can do. As is the case with any other specialization in Shadowrun, you have to commit to it.

As is the case with most gear in Fifth Edition, cyberdecks set your limits when performing Matrix actions. They’re customizable, giving you the chance to put a higher limit on the type of activity you expect to be doing frequently. As mentioned above, they’re wireless enabled, but they also can plug into systems when you want the advantages plugging in gives you–or if you’re dealing with one of those paranoid types who stores things on a non-wireless system. They do not come with a giant keyboard, unless you want that sort of thing for some reason.

The Matrix is a tougher place for hackers now. Security is tighter, and the Grid Overwatch Division of the Corporate Court is constantly on the watch for illicit activity. This gives deckers and technomancers the chance to buck the odds, show off their skills, and pull off amazing feats in the face of pressing danger. To us, that feels very much like Shadowrun should.

Mungo shall still be |337 as soon as he steals a new cyberdeck off some new script kiddie decker. Since decks are nothing but commlinks only cooler.

It sounds as if the problems with TM's aren't being addressed at all.

And while mention is made of the benefits of jacking directly into a system are made... no idea of what they are is given.

It's skill+attribute now, as has been confirmed in the earlier post, so Mungo actually needs a high logic or whatever attribute is required to do matrix stuff.

What are programs for then? Has that been mentioned?

But there hasn't been any information on how those will work, too?
So this is just pessimistic speculation, isn't it?

What are programs for then? Has that been mentioned?

the Grid Overwatch Division of the Corporate Court is constantly on the watch for illicit activity

... Accuracy? (See earlier blog post about that stat for gear/equipment.)

What if Resonance was (1+Essence Lost) and could not be raised through karma?

(Modifying how immersion works, but ignoring that for now)

If technos didn't need to spend karma to raise Res, there'd need to be some other karma sink. Otherwise they def. would be getting the best of both worlds - lots of good cyber, free Res rating. Would need limitations on what cyber was available to technos so they weren't super samurai + Res

Maybe powers that they have to buy with karma. Taking control of different devices/vehicles, ECCM, e-sensing....

There is the fact that aug'd out technomancers would be antithetical to many existing character concepts. And the fact that adding augmentations to a technomancer means damaging their wetware, which is why Essence loss impacts Resonance.

Yeah, it would break existing character concepts, that's bad. Not sure if there'd be a graceful way around that or not.

... Accuracy? (See earlier blog post about that stat for gear/equipment.)

Yeah, it would break existing character concepts, that's bad. Not sure if there'd be a graceful way around that or not.

But your second point isn't really valid, since we're talking about new ideas for a new edition, not existing ones. Rules can change. Might as well say cyberdecks aren't worth it, since everyone can just hack with their commlink...

I'm not talking rules, there - it's canon that some of a technomancers abilities are, in fact, related to their physiology. There are distinct physiological differences between technomancers and everyone else - if I remember right, a lot of it is down to their CNS. Damaging that by replacing it with cyber or bioware is what causes the damage to their abilities that is represented with the loss of Resonance. With the change to the way the Matrix works, any change to the way the wetware functions would by necessity make it more pervasive across the body, not less, because it needs more "hardware" to get the processing power and such needed to keep the bio-node on level with cyberdecks. You can't implement such an idea without a retcon, or introducing something separate and distinct from technomancers (a Resonance version of adepts, perhaps?) for it to work with. And the former would still be hell for converting characters over.

Yes, there would be changes in the world. It doesn't have to be a "retcon", which seems like such a dirty word to some people. Changes are already happening to the world and to the canon. For instance, the same way magic is changing throughout the editions, similarly Resonance could be "evolving".

I value helpful feedback, but if your only input is "nuh uh, that'd change things!", well, that's not very helpful feedback.

There's a difference, however, between a change that's consistent with the advancement of the timeline and a complete reversal of direction. The bio-node ceasing to work in anything resembling the way it presently does to suddenly work in another way is something of a hard sell as Resonance "evolving"; it also raises the question of what exactly happens to existing technomancers - does their physiology suddenly change?

I'll reiterate: This seems like it would be better suited to something separate and distinct from technomancers, even if it is still something Emerged. Some sort of Resonance version of adepts, for example, would be both an interesting add and a good place to use this idea.

It's already been done with Magic in YotC and 4th. But still, I do agree that it would be a big change.

And my apologies, I did miss this point in your previous post. I also like the idea of a "Resonance adept", as it seems like many of the things that are really cool about technomancers are the Echoes, yet in play I think Echoes are almost never really a factor, as it would take so much Karma to make them useful.

Of course, I'm very good at coming up with the beginnings of an idea and not at all following through on it to actually make it a worthwhile idea. Hmmmm

I'm not talking rules, there - it's canon that some of a technomancers abilities are, in fact, related to their physiology. There are distinct physiological differences between technomancers and everyone else - if I remember right, a lot of it is down to their CNS. Damaging that by replacing it with cyber or bioware is what causes the damage to their abilities that is represented with the loss of Resonance. With the change to the way the Matrix works, any change to the way the wetware functions would by necessity make it more pervasive across the body, not less, because it needs more "hardware" to get the processing power and such needed to keep the bio-node on level with cyberdecks. You can't implement such an idea without a retcon, or introducing something separate and distinct from technomancers (a Resonance version of adepts, perhaps?) for it to work with. And the former would still be hell for converting characters over.

And one Datajack connected to a simple Wireless Adapter later, and POOF ... I've got a Technomancer, except I can make full use of cybernetics, too!

And one Datajack connected to a simple Wireless Adapter later, and POOF ... I've got a Technomancer, except I can make full use of cybernetics, too!

The advantages of cyberware probably need more balancing than the loss of a few Echos, but the concept is definitely possible without screwing up fluff or mechanics.

And lose all Echos related to the bioelectric handwavium field. No Skinlink, E-Sensing, Living ECM, Resonance Trodes, plus some small ones I forgot.

So, with the Cyberdecks returning, can I now live my Nintendo Power Glove fantasy out and strap the deck to my forearm (it sounds like it should be smaller than before) and a flexi-keyboard?

Please?