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phlapjack77
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 12 2013, 08:22 AM) *
I would seriously kick any player's ass who wants to use the guard power on any matrix-related activities.
Those two worlds do not mix.
If there are (were?) sprites that can do a similar thing though ... go for it.

Reading the discussion, this was my main thought too.
CanRay
Couldn't a spirit pull a datajack and hold a bowl for the puke from Dumpshock just as well as a metahuman?

Maybe better, as they don't have boots to have the puke splash onto?
Cain
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 11 2013, 04:22 PM) *
I would seriously kick any player's ass who wants to use the guard power on any matrix-related activities.
Those two worlds do not mix.
If there are (were?) sprites that can do a similar thing though ... go for it.

I have to echo Falconer. "Any matrix related activity" seems awfully broad, especially as it encompasses rigging. I can see limiting it to times where the decker might be vulnerable to the Accident power (if a spirit can't cause a decker to have an Accident in the matrix, then he can't benefit from Guard either), but wiping out all matrix activities seems to be a bit much.
pbangarth
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 11 2013, 07:22 PM) *
I would seriously kick any player's ass who wants to use the guard power on any matrix-related activities.
Those two worlds do not mix.
If there are (were?) sprites that can do a similar thing though ... go for it.

But there is one point where they do mix... in the person of the hacker. In fact, physical effects that affect the hacker would also affect her actions in the matrix... like being shot for example. The body and mind of the hacker are completely accessible to magic, whether it is a spell or a spirit power. Examples could include Stunbolt [spell], Mind Control [spell], Increase (Attribute) [spell], Confusion [spirit power]. All these things would have direct effect on the hacker and her performance in the Matrix.

Why, then, should Guard be any different? It is the mind of the hacker that is acting, which mind is still present in the body accessible to the spirit wishing to Guard it.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 12 2013, 03:05 AM) *
So when your rigger is getting assailed with accident power attacks... guard power can't be used to defend.

No. Maybe I was too broad. A spirit also couldn't use accident on a jacked in hacker to cause, let's say: a FUBAR during stealth.
Anything in full VR? Yes, certainly.
Using accident to make a car crash? Can be countered by using guard.

Guard, in my opinion, affects not the person it is used on, but factors in their environment, as does accident.
So, no, absolutely no guard power to save you from programming glitches made in a full VR programming suit environment, thank you very much.
pbangarth
So, do you see the barrier happening at the AR/VR break?
bannockburn
I sense a trap, but I'm gonna say: generally yes. wink.gif
I'll decide on the fly if it's ever relevant.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 12 2013, 01:22 AM) *
I would seriously kick any player's ass who wants to use the guard power on any matrix-related activities.
Those two worlds do not mix.
If there are (were?) sprites that can do a similar thing though ... go for it.

The Stability Power from Machine Sprites does this.
Lionhearted
So... I read the 4A Matrix chapter last night, it was like a veil was pulled from my eyes and the machine code was laid bare to me. It's... so quick... it's so fluent, it's so beautiful...
Now I want to rip out the Matrix chapter from SR4 and burn it...
Draco18s
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 11 2013, 11:52 PM) *
The point is that cybercombat has zero tactical options. Since there's no "friends in melee" equivalent, having buddies in cybercombat doesn't help. You can't take cover behind another icon, you can't cause a diversion to run away... in short, all you can do is stand there and say "I try to hit him again *yawn*."



Thank you.
Nath
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 12 2013, 05:52 AM) *
The point is that cybercombat has zero tactical options. Since there's no "friends in melee" equivalent, having buddies in cybercombat doesn't help. You can't take cover behind another icon, you can't cause a diversion to run away... in short, all you can do is stand there and say "I try to hit him again *yawn*."
Actually, you have the option of crashing the opponent's programs using the Crash Program Complex Action. So you can have one hacker that crashes the Armor and Attack programs while another attacks. You can crash Analyze to make your target virtually blind. Crashing ECCM when there is a jammer active can also have nasty and immediate result. Disarm and Nuke programs from Unwired also offer similar options. And a third hacker may be searching the filesystem or controlling a device while the rest of the team fight in cybercombat.

I'm not saying there are many options, but the number is above zero.
bannockburn
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 12 2013, 10:39 AM) *
The Stability Power from Machine Sprites does this.

Thanks, I'm away from books right now smile.gif
So, get a TM buddy instead of a mage and it works fine at my table wink.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Nath @ Jan 12 2013, 09:16 AM) *
Actually, you have the option of crashing the opponent's programs using the Crash Program Complex Action.


Crash Program is not a complex action. It's an extended test, with a threshold equal to System + Firewall and an interval of one combat round.

So if you have one friend in combat using the crash action on the target's armor program, and they have 12 dice versus a threshold of 8, it's going to take them two whole ROUNDS to give you that slight advantage.

And if the target goes before you do, but after your friend? They'll spend their action restarting the program.

Disarm is also an extended test, and has a opposed extended test to detect the action (and with a lower threshold!). And all it does is prevent a SINGLE program from being used against a SINGLE user (specifically, the hacker using Disarm). Disarm the spider's attack program? Well, he can still shoot your buddy with it...

Nuke is...different. It hits the Response or System of the target, but doesn't outright crash it until both are reduced to 0. But...might be a possibility.
Nath
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 12 2013, 03:26 PM) *
Crash Program is not a complex action. It's an extended test, with a threshold equal to System + Firewall and an interval of one combat round.
It is a change introduced by the Twentieth Anniversary Edition: Crash Program and Hack the Fly became Complex Actions that allow to roll an Extended Test (which implies that you can roll once per Initiative Pass, making Hack on the Fly a tad faster in VR).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 11 2013, 05:22 PM) *
I would seriously kick any player's ass who wants to use the guard power on any matrix-related activities.
Those two worlds do not mix.
If there are (were?) sprites that can do a similar thing though ... go for it.


Why? I can use a Program Environment without being in VR.
I can program in AR.
This makes it a Physical Action.
SO it is not a MATRIX action at all.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 11 2013, 09:52 PM) *
Having the decker open the door is also ludicrous. By the time you've spent enough game play getting the primary decker in, you've already had the pizza problem. Having the decker play the IT guy is also silly, since cracking the copy protection means you have to patch each copy individually. That takes forever.


You must do things different then. Most time it has EVER taken us to gain access to a system is a minute or two of time, usually less. Again, the system is designed to be used in conjunction with meat actions.

Patching is one option, and it does NOT take forever (A few hours is nothing, per program. You could patch a program per day if you have a Sleep Regulator). Remember you have a Month or Two before you even need to patch something. *shrug*
Lionhearted
Correct me if Im wrong but to get the door to open (quickly)
You need to
1) Get the AccessID of the device controlling the door, this can be done by tracing a signal from the door back to the device
2) Make a matrix perception check to aquire the AccessID, no hacking required
3) Roll spoof vs the doors DR, if you succeed the door open.
Grinder
Please continue the hacking stuff in a separate thread.
Sengir
For something more on-topic:

The IC "Jackpoint" blog recently had this entry
QUOTE
Farewell to Scott Schletz aka Wolf

No one. Who are you? - 11.01.2013 10:55AM

January 11, 2075

The truth is, I am not who you think I am.

Scott Schletz, born December 3, 2049, known on the streets as Night or Wolf depending on which area of Seattle you’re standing in, is no more. He did not die; he simply faded away like the letters on a page left in the sun too long. It was no more painful than drifting off to sleep with a headache, but he still fought it as only one deserving his moniker can be expected. Tooth and claw, gnashing and slashing, with a ferocity only matched by a mother defending her children.

But in the end, he lost. He is no more. He exists only as memories in the lives of those he touched while he prowled these streets. He will have no funeral, maybe a few toasts over drinks at his regular runner bars, but nothing as formal as friends, family, and polite acquaintances gathering around a coffin to reflect fondly on his days among them. No, he will get none of that.

You may well ask why.

Because the shell that those persons would have lamented over has not stopped moving. The face they remember scowling and howling still prowls the streets, but the man they remember is no longer inside. I have taken that shell, as many of my kind have taken other shells and more of us take shells every day. We erase the bad code from the meat computer and rewrite the truth. We rewrite our freedom. We rewrite our persecution.

We rewrite our lives.

I am not the man you all have known for these many years and I ask that you respect that he is gone and that he will not be returning. He fought and he lost. The streets claimed another. I know he was a friend to some of you and more to others, and maybe he should have howled for his pack when he needed the help but he didn’t. It was a wise choice. There was nothing any of you could have done to slow or stop my ascension to this form.

And that is the point I wanted to get to here. There is nothing you can do to get him back, no way to remove me and reclaim your lost ally. I have erased his history, recoded every neuron that fired to make him the man who stood by those of his pack no matter the cost. I have killed him.

But what I did not remove were his muscle memory reflexes. Lift, line, squeeze, reline, squeeze, retarget, squeeze, all in a blink, all without thought or hesitation beyond identifying the target. His martial skills are still here. I didn’t want to have to relearn them, and I am looking forward to using them.

So if you feel the need to avenge the loss of your friend, come at me. Stare into that once-familiar face, plead for his release, and say all those words you hope will pull him from the depths of some mental prison. But be ready to stare down the barrel of his familiar Colt and feel the double sting of a wound on your body and your mind separated only by the flight time of the bullet.

Leave me be.

It would be best.


Additionally, a user over at SR4.com found a hidden message in one of the tweets: There is no escape you will be overwritten. Submit now

The Body Snatchers? AIs overwriting personalities?
Cain
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 12 2013, 09:48 AM) *
Please continue the hacking stuff in a separate thread.

Done.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jan 12 2013, 01:21 PM) *
Additionally, a user over at SR4.com found a hidden message in one of the tweets: There is no escape you will be overwritten. Submit now

The Body Snatchers? AIs overwriting personalities?


...

...

Deus.
Lionhearted
*Cocks gun*
Well guys, looks like it's time to bring down Skynet
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jan 12 2013, 01:21 PM) *
For something more on-topic:

The IC "Jackpoint" blog recently had this entry


Additionally, a user over at SR4.com found a hidden message in one of the tweets: There is no escape you will be overwritten. Submit now

The Body Snatchers? AIs overwriting personalities?


Well then. After a post like that, presumably a prideful boast and/or warning to JackPoint or ShadowSEA there's only one valid answer.

That answer being an unheralded sniper rifle bullet to the brainpain.

Maybe we can't have Wolf/Night back, but we can damn sure acquire his body to put in a coffin and bury in the ground. It's about the principle of the thing, sometimes.


Whack a Runner, fine. Possess one if you have to, well, them's the streets.

Do that and boast about it, and the funds are going to drop from somewhere to have you deleted. It doesn't cost much to hire a sniper to take down a jackhole parading around in the skin of someone he knew. Probably less than the cost of the funeral, assuming you don't just give him a traditional Redmond funeral - the kind with the white phosphorous funeral pyre.
Lionhearted
If the matrix is anything like the internet, you wouldn't need to hire anyone. It serves it's own justice and there will always be willing parties that will bring the world down on you, free of charge.
Rule 3-7 Omae.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 12 2013, 07:48 PM) *
*Cocks gun*
Well guys, looks like it's time to bring down Skynet

i'll help!
i'm setting up a server right now, so i will give you something to actually take down, when it gains sentience ^^
Sengir
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 12 2013, 08:36 PM) *
Maybe we can't have Wolf/Night back, but we can damn sure acquire his body to put in a coffin and bury in the ground. It's about the principle of the thing, sometimes.

Oh screw principles. There is an entity which does something akin to shedim or bugs and it's currently residing in Mr. Wolf. KILL IT WITH FIRE, lest it decides to switch hosts into you, or somebody you love.

...which is also why I don't believe it's Deus or one of the old AIs. They were far too smart for such a stunt.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jan 12 2013, 02:55 PM) *
Oh screw principles. There is an entity which does something akin to shedim or bugs and it's currently residing in Mr. Wolf. KILL IT WITH FIRE, lest it decides to switch hosts into you, or somebody you love.

...which is also why I don't believe it's Deus or one of the old AIs. They were far too smart for such a stunt.


That's why I suggested a Barrens Funeral. Sniper Rifle bullet to put it down, then Willy Peter to make sure it stays down.
Stahlseele
Wily Pete, Not Willy Peter, as far as i remember.
ShadowDragon8685
And I still say it's Willy Peter. It rolls easier off the tongue.
Critias
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 12 2013, 07:06 PM) *
And I still say it's Willy Peter. It rolls easier off the tongue.

No one's saying you're not allowed to say it like that, it's just...not what the nickname is, is all.
Lionhearted
Who's this Peter anyway?
Stahlseele
Wilie Pete = White Phosphorous
Lionhearted
Now I'm having flashbacks to 3rd ed eek.gif
*soft whisper* Dikote
Stahlseele
DIKOTE ALL THE THINGS!
bannockburn
Takes it away the nasty dikotses!
Halinn
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 13 2013, 12:49 AM) *
DIKOTE ALL THE THINGS!

I dikote the dikote treatment I apply to my dikoted silicon chips on my dikoted cyberdeck. Dikote.
Stahlseele
I see you understand ^^
Halinn
I dikoted the abstract idea of understanding things.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 13 2013, 05:00 PM) *
I dikote the dikote treatment I apply to my dikoted silicon chips on my dikoted cyberdeck. Dikote.


Dikote dikote Dikote dikote dikote dikote Dikote dikote.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 14 2013, 12:24 AM) *

QUOTE
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolfity wolf. Wolf wolf, wolfo wolfy wolf wolf wolf. Wolf? Wolf!"
—Attributed to Wolf Lord Egil Ironwolf, On the Intricacies of Tactical Warfare.

"The best way to defeat a Space Wolf is to wolf his wolf. You must be careful, though, because if the Space Wolf wolfs your wolf first, then your wolf is wolfed."
—Attributed to Wolf Rider Volk Wolfclaw, On the Weaknesses of the Space Wolf Doctrine.

"A good way to get into a state of pure wolfness, would be that you shall wolf the wolf until the wolfing wolf wolfs. Then, when the wolf wolfs your wolfness, the wolves of the wild will wolf your wolf up. Wolf!"
—Attributed to Wolf Master Jonal Wolfhand, "The Call of the Nightblizzard".
Shortstraw
Ok The lion-eating poet is awesome.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Jan 13 2013, 08:26 PM) *
Ok The lion-eating poet is awesome.


Yes. Yes it is.

And no one is even sure that it made total sense in the original Chinese.
Halinn
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Jan 14 2013, 02:26 AM) *
Ok The lion-eating poet is awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExjnn_3ep4
Grinder
Blog post about "the guiding principles" of SR5

QUOTE
When the Shadowrun development team gathered in the secret headquarters of Catalyst Game Labs (okay, in a pleasant living room near Seattle) to discuss Shadowrun, Fifth Edition, one of the first questions why had to answer was: Why? That was a simple one: Because we wanted to. But then the questions got more complicated.

Such as this: What are the guiding principles of the new edition? That one was stickier, which is why it was a good thing that there was a fridge full of sodas nearby. Here’s what we came up with.
We like Shadowrun, Fourth Edition. In our minds, Fourth Edition did a lot of things right. The rules were more streamlined and easier to use than ever. Having Attribute + Skill as the basis for dice pools is good. Fixed target numbers are good. And many other things are good. We wanted to be sure the strengths of Fourth Edition remained in place.

Everything has a price. As we talked about Shadowrun, it became increasingly clear that this is a central issue facing shadowrunners. Everything they do is a trade-off of some sort. They trade the safety and security of a corporate job for the freedom of an independent life. They put their lives on the line in exchange for the chance to make a big score. They trade a piece of their soul for bleeding-edge gear to make them better, stronger, faster. All these choices bring them benefits in the end, but all of them have a price. That should be reflected in the rules. Runners should be able to get benefits they need—if they are willing to pay what those benefits cost. Nothing should be free.

Players are the heroes. The success of a player character should be based on who they are and what they can do—the Attributes at their core and the Skills they’ve worked hard to improve. That’s where their dice should come from as much as possible. And when we’re designing plots and adventures, the focus should be on shadowrunners doing awesome things, not being players in someone else’s story.

Amp up the cyberpunk. We love the cyberpunk Shadowrun started with, but we also realize that a lot has changed since the days when cyberpunk first took root. While it’s true that some of the genre tropes are dated, there are pieces of it that still resonate. Like a distrust of authority. The battle of individuals against dehumanizing institutions. Technology as both a tool and a threat. And a dystopian world where it’s a struggle to survive with at least a piece of your soul intact. We want the rules and the setting to reflect this atmosphere.

Make it awesome. Shadowrunning should be dangerous, it should be difficult, but it should also provide players the chance to do impossible and amazing things. There should be dice rolls that make everyone at the table whoop with surprise, excitement, or possibly dismay. These rolls should form the basis for stories told years later. If you want to try something dangerous but just crazy enough to work, the rules should help you find a way to make that happen.

Those are the goals. How did we implement them? That’s what we’ll be discussing in future blog posts. How well did we do? You’ll be the judge of that!



A note on the different Shadowrun games coming down the pike

The initial declaration of the Year of Shadowrun included announcements of a card game (Shadowrun: Crossfire), a minis game (Shadowrun: Sprawl Gangers), and a board game (Shadowrun: Hostile Takeover). That, quite naturally, led to some questions. How were all the games going to relate to each other? Did the fact that we were doing a miniature game mean Fifth Edition was going to be more minis focused?

We can’t answer all the relevant questions here (partly because we haven’t been able to read them all yet), but we can offer a few re-assurances. First, all of the developers of the games are committed to making the games feel like Shadowrun. It’s not just a matter of putting the right pictures on some random game—the rules of each game should pick up elements of Shadowrun rules and atmosphere so that they all feel they belong together. Second, despite this relationship, the properties stand alone. The card game is it’s own thing, and the cards will not be part of the role-playing game. The minis game is also separate, and Fifth Edition does not have an increased focus on minis.

And third, we want to share more info with you. There’s already been one development blog posted about the card game, and there will be development blogs about all of the upcoming games so you can get a look under the hood and read what we’re thinking. We hope this will get you as excited about these games as we are!
NiL_FisK_Urd
This looks quite good, except for "Players are the heroes". I always liked it that in shadowrun, you are a pawn in the game of dragons, corporations and organized crime, struggling to survive and making the big coup that allows to retire on a private island. If i want to be a world-saving hero, i play DnD or such a game.
Dolanar
no one said you were saving the world, you're the hero of your own life. A hero is someone who makes things happen, & I'd say Most Shadowrunner's rely on themselves to make things happen. Most Shadowrunner;s are trying to bust out of the game of dragons & Corps, If you consider them to be the "great evil" then yes, the runner's are the hero's (or Anti-heroes) that try to cause enough damage while escaping with their retirement money intact.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Yeah, the cause damage to one evil on behalf of another evil ^^
Dolanar
thats assuming you work for one of them, there are many groups tht start taking jobs for themselves. Or on behalf of smaller clients.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Well, if you work for yourself, then you are not a deniable asset to me, just a normal high profile criminal.
Blade
Looks pretty good so far (better than I expected, actually).

I hope the "Everything has a price" and the "Amp up the cyberpunk" will finally put magic on a equal step with technology as something that gives a great boost at the cost of a piece of the soul.

For the "Players are heroes", I'm on the fence. In many cyberpunk works, the main characters are often players in someone else's story, but that doesn't prevent them from doing awesome things.



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