Missions are part of the ebooks line. There's no reason for them to be considered any less important to the Shadowrun line than any other ebook or published adventure. There is a perception that they are a "con thing", but we started this in Season 4 fairly successfully, I think with the plot lines we ran there, and we plan to continue to do so in Season 5.

It likely won't be major, world changing stuff. We're not going to start wars between countries or have immortal elves invading great dragons. But it will effect the setting in some way it can have lasting repercussions. We managed to turn Seattle upside down, and Chicago is a lot more open.



Yeah... no. Not at all. The new edition is about fixing things. Some things didn't need fixed and were left alone. Some things are just tweaked ever so slightly to fix wording or play style issues. And some stuff it was felt would work better if it was changed in some way, large or small.

Bull

...we are?

I mean, that's exactly what's going on, here. The confusion is over, the multi-thread debates about when and how spirits spend edge can stop, etc, etc. The rules text is being fixed.


It's hard for me, who took part in so many arguments over the last few years, to reply to this sort of thing without cussing...but I'll give it a shot. I assure you, we didn't spend the last couple of years just willy-nilly "making things different." The new edition absolutely is about "fixing things." No one just threw their hands up and went "Whee, let's change stuff!" and if they had, Jason would have shot it down. The changes that are being made are all things that were fought over, tooth and nail, and then playtested, and then fought over again.

If your mind's made up, fine, your mind's made up. Hate the new edition (sight unseen) all you want to, that's your gig. But I'd really appreciate it if you could tone down the cynicism just a bit, and not cast aspirations on the motives of those who've spent all this time working on it, too.

Maybe so (can't tell before I've read the new main rulebook), but when I read "spirits no longer have Edge", I don't have high hopes.

It's a difference between what Missions are and how they are perceived. I'm afraid that not too many gamers out there know of Missions at all, part from con goers, forum users, and the occasional ebook buyer. As for the Seattle example in Missions Season 4: I bet most people would take Seattle 2072 as up-to-date.

it'll make oversummoning/summoning in general less dangerous if the spirits can't use edge to resist i'd guess?

And, if GMs chose to go the other way with Edge, it makes summoned spirits less overwhelmingly potent (in that you didn't have a one-shot character spending their Force in Edge points in a single scene). There's less risk to summoning more powerful spirits, and less of a power spike in summoning a spirit; the power curve has been simplified, smoothed out, confusion withdrawn.

Uaaaarrgh

so . . wait . . what?
you can do your creation, keep some karma left over and, for example, immediately after game start spend your left over karma on getting rid of negative edges/flaws?

I would like to point out exactly why this wouldn't work (or, rather, why it would technically "work" but would accomplish exactly nothing and bring exactly no benefit, so while it maye technically be some sort of a loophole it is one with no practical or exploitive value or potential), but it's 5:30 in the morning right now and there's no one awake for me to pester on Facebook to see if I'd be violating my NDA.

So instead I'll just have to be vague, I guess, and say "Sort of, but don't worry about that."

I personally wouldn't like a system wherein a being like a spirit doesn't have Edge at all. I have no problem with the idea that a summoner wouldn't be able to access it, though.

Yea I'm afraid I can't agree. While the couple I've seen are well done modules, they are just that: modules. They can touch on plot stuff, or handle behind the scenes kind of revelations, but the big, important stuff should be in source books or campaign books.

Just my opinion anyway. I've never been a big buyer of one-shot type modules for any game system. I understand the missions stuff is a little more connected, but still. This seems like a way to grab some bucks by putting story info in a module that will never see a printer.

I disagree. Edge should remain the realm of free-willed beings. Free spirits for example, should get Edge 1 at 'freedom' and have to increase it like everyone else.

If a summoner is abusing spirits, the GM should just give extra dice to the spirits now and then or other things to get the point across that spirits are miffed at em.

What exactly would be the problem with that? The player is essentially replacing "Illiterate" (or some other flaw) with "gets X karma less during chargen".

My problem if priority gen is the extreme coarseness of the system. You have a character concept that requires 450k ¥? Well S2BY, the only options available are 400k or one million. Want to put 35 points in skills? Either cut it down to 34 or get 40 points and have another area truncated. If they are now apparently replacing "X points of attributes and Y of skills" with "X karma you can put into attributes and Y for skills" presumably does little to change that.

I liked the Sum-to-10 priority system. It's a little quicker and easier (especially for newbies), but retains some flexibility to avoid human street sams, deckers, and riggers all having a million nuyen to start with.

Pick up a flaw for an-amount-of-priority that converts to N karma.

Spend aN+c (where a >= 1 and c >= 0) karma buying off the flaw.

Yeah, I don't see this as a loophole at all.

I quite liked the priority systems, but more of the SR3 style(I felt the priorities were generally the most solid there, however, I felt that the races at C and D were a bit wonky, particularly how Orks and Dwarves were the two races who got the least amount of minuses for their bonuses but were lower.) The SR4 prio system in and of itself I thought was good for what it did, but it was obviously geared toward street level games since it literally gave you less of everything. (Which is fine with me since I support systems which can be used for a variety of games, but we didn't use it.) I'm looking forward to how the new priority system is set up. I'm quite intrigued about how it's Karma related by the sound of it.

That would be a loophole in the system you're envisioning, I agree. Which raises the question: Is the system you're envisioning the same as the one in the book?

It's not a loophole if it costs you more karma to get rid of than you got by taking it.
In any case, I cannot answer the second question without violating an NDA I don't have.
(e.g. I don't know the answer, and if I did, I still couldn't say).

The Priority system in SR4's Runner's Companion was designed to make characters of 400 BP, give or take 5%. So a character made with the system should be roughly the same as a 400 BP character, no matter which combination of priorities you took.

To address the issue with spirits and edge: Jason didn't exactly say that they won't have any. The quote is:

I'm taking that particular quote to mean that the only way for a summoned spirit to spend edge is if their summoner spends a point of edge.
Essentially putting the Edge-resource back into the same bucket that all other players have.

(For NPC spirits, this would fall back to the general "mook edge pool" as well)

It lends itself to a very broad interpretation. Spirits could still be able to spend edge to resist summoning, is another possible one.

But yeah, I think having them have mook edge sounds good.

Which will make a different mechanic necessary for the situation where the GM can let high force spirits use their individual Edge against summoning / binding.

Which I'm fine with. I want those situations as being spelled out. There are no less than three different interpretations of it floating around on the forums ("always","force > N", "force > magic").

Personally I use Force > Summoning skill rating (Specialization applies)

I'd be fine with them being spelled out in detail. However, one of the things that I noticed with SR4 (and thus mostly the people at work here again) was that such details simply were lost ... both in respect to detailed rules and fluff information. So chances are that said mechanic simply has gone the way of the Dodo

I like this one.


Though you might even have different thresholds.

Summoning a spirit? It'll use edge if it's force is greater than summoning skill.
Binding a spirit? It'll use edge if it's force is greater than 2/3 summoning skill (round down).
Rebinding a spirit? It'll only use edge if you've mistreated it since you bound it.


Or you could even have it different Hermetic and Shamanic since they're re-emphasizing the differences between those. Like I recently made a homebrew for those, and the way I had it was Hermetics get one summoned/bound spirit, which is stronger than other spirits of its kind. These spirits will basically always use edge to resist the summoning/binding.

Shamans on the other hand have spirits that are weaker, but relatively freely serve when called (ie don't spend edge to resist), however they will resist any sort of binding unless they consent to it ahead of time (and will generally only consent if their force is lower than the Summoner, or have had relatively regular positive contact with the summoner).

Ergo wanting said details to make it into the book.
One of the other things I noticed that got lost was how long it takes a shapeshifter to shift (a Complex Action). You'd think that'd have made the cut!
("Can I shift during combat?" being a remarkably frequent question for anyone playing a critter with bity clawy bits.)

Uh? p. 85, Runner's Companion tells us that the Shift power uses a Complex Action.
How did that get lost?

My mistake on that-thinking about it my biggest mistake was probably trying to convert a BP character over. I do sometimes even now still forget that trying to convert BP-Prio-Karma with each other rarely works perfectly.

Thinking back, I think what threw it off was the Metahuman thing. Elves and Trolls were B at the lowest, and I had tried to make a copy of an Elven sam I had to test it. His Attributes were pretty much exact but the Skills and Resources were completely off from the BP version(off the top of my head he had 20 extra BP from qualities, elf was 30, 200 on regular attributes, 20 points for Edge, 40 Resource points, 120 Skill points with specializations, and then 10 points leftover for contacts.) The Prio version had quite a few less skills and Resources were 70k vs. the 200k the BP version had(which cut out a whole lot of his ware).

(Apologies for the slight derail, by the way. Was just pointing out some of my own experiences. I know again I was doing the no-no of trying to convert over one concept to another which rarely goes perfectly as it is and it's probably what made me scratch my head at the discrepancy between the two. I tried to do it with others as well and yeah, not really ideal to convert.)

Sorry, been a while since I looked at the book.
When I originally asked the question it was about drakes, which isn't listed (as they are not a subtype of shifter).

Also not listed* is what happens if they're wearing armor when they shift.
*Again, AFB and it has been a while.

C in SR3 regardless of magical activity, B in SR2 when dealing with full magicians.

Was speaking of SR4. That had A and B as 'any metatype' (you could put your Dwarf or Ork there to get more Special Attribute points though), C was Human, Ork, or Dwarf. So Troll/Elf was essentially locked into A or B depending on how many Special points you wanted.

I see. ^^

Thinking about it, if i had to give my ups and downs over the years...Karmagen is by far my favorite, but even then I don't think it's 100% perfect. I'd say...


Priority Ups(Note-I do not know 5e's adjustments here involving Karma yet so I don't know how different it will be)-

+Usually pretty fast
+As of SR3, I think it had the balance perfect-Priority A SHOULD give you a crapload and Priority E SHOULD give you very little, with the other stuff as appropriate
+Lets you pick the most important stuff and has everything have a price
+Easiest to teach to new folks

-It can sometimes get in the way of certain concepts(A person with excellent natural capability who is also a rich @&*^#@* but isn't well trained, for example, is a bit difficult to make under this system. In other words, someone whom you picture having 2 of the 3 things as Really Damn Awesome would be better off made under points.)
-I've always felt Metas got a little bit of a shaft here. I don't mind at ALL paying for metas, but I feel they get hit worse under Priority
-In that vein, SR3's 'Elves and Trolls need C but Orks/Dwarves D'...when Orks and Dwarves got a lot more bonuses for less penalties. Trolls did get big pluses however, it's Elves that were the biggest issue.)
-If the numbers are off for the 1st or the Last levels of priority it can feel really off. If A doesn't give enough or E gives too much in particular.
-SR4's system I still felt was a little off compared to 3's, perhaps equal to 2's.


BP:

+With it's pretty linear costs it's easy to understand and it's fairly easy to teach to new folks even with the moving parts
+Allows for a greater number of concepts over Priority since you pick and choose where it goes
+Very easy to adjust power levels with since the costs were so cut and dry; want a street-level game? 300-320. Want a higher powered game? 460-500. Want to keep it the same but limit other stuff? Rip off the attribute cap and limit the money and availability instead.

-Wasn't fond of the absolute strict rules for it, in particular regarding the heavy Attribute cap point costs
-Awarded very narrowly focused characters at the start due to how karma worked
-Meta costs were off(again, with the elves and to a lesser extent the trolls)
-Takes longer than Priority


Karmagen:

+Creation was how you advanced, it was all the same
+Better 'feel' to the characters overall, they felt more organic to me
+Awarded being more generalized and allowed for the widest range of concepts since it wasn't as strict on certain things

-Could end up a bit more powerful
-A LOT of moving parts, could be overwhelming to new folks or more overwhelming to adjust things
-Characters took the longest to make


That's my personal rundown. Given that my favorites were Karmagen>SR3 Priority>BP, hearing this is Priority with Karma leaves me again rather intrigued to see more.

Developer Blog, in which is discussed magic.

Discuss.

3 good meals (or less) and a good nights sleep will give back 4 points of edge.
not that much of an investment i think . . well, using anyway, not burning.
So a summoner can't USE a spirits Edge. Can he BURN it then?

Called it.

Well, I'm curious to see how rebalancing the drain codes and damage/resistance tests was done. I can't see stun spells being equal in drain to physical damage spells, that seems a little over the top. I wonder if, just going by the wording of the post, that spirits have their own Edge for resisting summoning/binding/etc but can't be compelled to use it on behalf of the conjuror. The flavor split with hermetic vs shamans intrigues...are the developers relaxing a bit off of the universal magic theory?

General thoughts:


-Drain revisited is cool. Honestly-this wasn't too much of an issue for us either way, but Stun spells were incredibly powerful. At the same time...if you wanted to play someone nonlethal, this was great. Tricky, but I'm for rebalancing Drain on spells. I think some leaned toward too high(*cough* elemental manipulation), and others too low(Stun spells.)

-Spirits and Edge: Another understandable change. Sounds fair enough that the mage would have to use their own. I can actually see Dwarf Summoners becoming pretty damn awesome with this though-Dwarves get a lot of bonuses(including Willpower), don't take a Charisma hit...and barely have to give points toward their physical stats, meaning they can free up a lot for Edge and not be physically wimpy. (On the other hand, this could stretch Mage resources even harder than they already are and drop the number of summoners if people start getting frustrated with it.) I agree that something had to be done with the endless Edge pool at least.

-Alchemy sounds awesome-I always wanted to have characters that did more with the non casting aspects. Don't have much else to say here except that I'm looking forward to making some new stuff with it.

-ALL the love for differentiating the traditions again. I really was sad how they felt so same-y in 4, and this is a huge boost. I look forward to the Magic supplement when we get some of the others again(I particularly liked Druids, but that might be because my mystic adept is a druid.)

-Simplifying spell damage sounds fine to me on paper. Can't really say much here except I'd have to try it in action.

-Cheaper foci? Sounds awesome here. They were pretty damn expensive. Don't mind that they're tougher to make at all, I think it's a fine trade-off. Trying to play a poorer mage was rough since you were *obviously not as good* as a mage that had more money. I mean, okay, Shadowrun, corps, Nuyen is Everything, I can see it, but I sorta started to feel like the differences were huge like in the days where Resources were tied to Magic Points. I understand in a world like SR having money is a distinct advantage, but I tend to side with 'whatever gives more concepts a better time hanging out with each other'.

All in all it doesn't sound like mages were nerfed to the ground or anything. I mean they still sound pretty powerful overall and still badasses that should be feared if you have one on your team. I am really jazzed about the Hermetic/Shamanic stuff, and also look forward to stuff about creating magical goodies(I'd love to see a sort of herbalist based thing, maybe that ties into Alchemy somehow.)

Probably. But it's a change that I think most people want. There's no reason to be a shaman vs. hermetic vs. chaos vs. thaumaturge right now which is lackluster.

Actually I always wondered why stun spells are in fact "easier" than spells that do physical damage, since in other instances SR magic makes the emphasis that destroying is easier than preservation/self restriction. You could essentially argue that overloading (and thus killing) a subject's body is easier than trying to balance the magic energies in a manner that no physical harm is suffered.

Well, no crunch reason. I would still play my character according to tradition regardless, but that's just me. I can see why a lot of people want the rules to enforce tradition differences again.



An interesting thought, and one I can see fitting the flavor of the universe. Would be the death knell for that spell type in game, though. Save the mana (and possible hemorrhages) for silent head-explodies, hit them with a taser or stun-gun if you want to take them out non-lethally.

They're not saying "buy Missions to read plot info". Just that events in Missions will affect FUTURE plot points that will be later included in sourcebooks.

If Plot Point A resolves as Result B, the only difference will be that Missions players had an impact on the result, rather than it just being decided solely by a writer. From the point of view of someone who dosen't get involved in Missions, they'll just see plot development in the various sourcebooks.

Like recently, Proposition 23 in Seattle was passed, making the Orc Underground an officially recognised part of the city. You read this in the newest sourcebooks, but a lot of the background events were caused by actions of Missions characters in the previous campaign season.


-k

It could be the death knell if they actually made it (severly) harder to stun. Unlike in my remark the given blog sounds more akin to having drain being closer (or even equal) in either case. Let's just say it's actually equal and suddenly stun vs. physical damage becomes a somewhat tactical decision (instead of stun being ultima ratio) as well a question of the magician's indvidual outlook (and training) ...

Isn't that what I said? Not being snarky, just confused.

Closer I'm fine with, as that seems to fit with my (admittedly faulty) memory of 2nd ed; weren't stun spells one damage code less than physical spells?

Equal drain? I dunno, just feels off, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. I guess it also depends on if filling the stun track is still that much easier to fill than the physical track.

Though I heartily agree with taking into account character outlook in addition to the crunch of it all.

even with equal drain, stun spells will still be superior i guess.

I am both curiously excited yet worried at the same time.

On one hand, it's another nice little option to have, especially if the mage is preparing for a big run.

On the other hand, you'd need a hard limit to the amount a mage can carry "prepared" spells. Otherwise, there's the problem of a mage stocking up on a bunch of prepared Fireballs and have (what I assume) to be less Drain than normal.

...

Actually, this kind of sounds similar to fetishes, and last I checked, those could be reuseable.

Will likely count against your sustained spell limit.

There is no hard limit, just penalties to DP...