Mages desperately needed that buff.

I like an unpredictable initiative system, too
IP are an easier system, to be sure, but rolling X+YD6 gives more varied results and allows unaugmented characters multiple passes, too. Also, the end results usually are lower than a fixed 4 IP, while the median results should be mostly in line with the average boosted character. Elegant, but less easy to use.

sure hope that's sarcasm . .

Ah ... no?

Perhaps you should read my postings again? I was quoting a Dumpshocker, even with a link. Since then the discussion on DS moved to this thread.

SYL

Well, the person who described that demo session did say that passes were gone, so it'd be more SR2 system. Though, that's all good to me, I liked how that worked, as it made it fully worthwhile even at the highest levels of the Initiative boosting stuff, and there was no real room for confusion with passes and whatnot (my SR3 GM used it instead of the base for SR3--probably because it's how he learned the game and assumed it was the same).

Whether or not you think it's something they should have done is irrelevant to the fact that you cannot judge the thing as something other than what it is. And once again, how's about you apply your math to limits of 8 or 12, or consider that there may also be limits to your defense?

Not quite SR2, though. To go full SR2 would be to make wired reflexes once again the only 'ware you'll ever need.

ah, my bad . .

I never played SR3, but SR1/2, you started acting on the highest init, and if you had an init of 5 or whatever, you had to wait until the sam had gone 3 times before you got your turn. So I'm sorta glad they're keeping the new way where everyone acts, then the extra IPs are used. It does de-power the extra IP guys some, but it also keeps extra-IP gear from being the only gear you need

under SR3 it was highest ini goes first, then next highest ini and so on.
and everybody who has ini left gets to go again untill he runs out in the end after everybody else had their goes.
so with 21 ini, you'd go 3 times.
and with 11 ini you go 2 times.
21 goes first-10now11, then 11-10now1, then old 21now11-10nownew1, then old11now1, then new1.
If 21 had started with 31 he'd go another time in the end.

So it was the same in all 3 editions - if you had an init of 7, you had to wait until the sam with a 18 went twice before you got to go.

I like the new way better, glad they're (seemingly) sticking with that.

*edit* I think that's what your post says about SR3 Stahlsteele. I'm having a hard time parsing it No matter, not that important...

Going by the description this "new" system most definitly is the reincarnation of the SR3 initiative ruleset:

1. Determine Initiative through rolling dice
2. Everyone gets his turn starting with highest (remaining) Initiative value
3. Reduce all Initiative values by 10. Anyone left with a positive Initiative value? Repeat from step 2

No, in SR3 the sam went once (with 18), then you (with 7), then the values were reduced by 10 to see if someone had another action, thus the sam went a second time (with 8 )

Which does get around some weirdness in the current system where someone can have hyper-reflexes letting them act 4 times as quickly, yet act slower than someone acting at normal speed, and assuming initiative is still Reaction+Intuition plus hits on a test of the same, it's possible to get a second pass without 'ware.

Got it - thanks

Same here.

Once more, just for you: The whole point is that they chose crappy data for their initial presentation, which makes me question the sanity or capability of those involved. Of course higher Accuracy limits would migrate the Matrix dodge problem, but that is beside the point.



Obviously, since there was talk about a general "physical limit". But as long as that limit is at greater or equal Accuracy, it does not make a difference.

Actually, other than the venue, it makes a good deal of sense. You need fresh eyes, especially since they've been playtesting for more than a year. People who've been exposed to many successive iterations simply do not have the right perspective to answer certain questions. It is an effective method to get a relatively large number of people who haven't seen the other playtests and who are already RPG players, so depending on what, specifically, you're setting out to test, this can be a very effective method of testing.

Whether or not this is good marketing is a different point entirely - marketing people are not design people. A questionable marketing decision shouldn't in any way make you question the "sanity or capability" of design people.

Not as I recall. I actually have my SR3 book somewhat close by, so lemme go check ...

...

...

Aha.

In SR3, and in SR5, initiative is the same. Everyone rolls their Initiative dice - 1, 2, 3, or 4 of them - and adds their Reaction. The first pass then proceeds in order from highest to lowest.

Then everyone subtracts 10. If anyone still has a positive initiative score, a second Pass then occurs.

Let me correct you:

In SR3, and in the SR5 demo at PAX, initiative is the same.

I don't belive anything is set 100% in stone yet.

I just hope the core book will state one thing bold and in caps: Whether you need a positive value to go a second time, or above 0. The 3rd Edition rules were "you need an Initiative above 0 for a second pass", yet half of the players I know somehow assumed that INI 10 gave you two passes...

which is wrong, 11 gives 2.
get your BBB and whack them.

It's been awhile since uni, but I think those 2 are the same thing

Does that mean you can get a second pass completely unaugmented?

No shit Sherlock, that's what I just said

But whacking so many people with books is hard work, so I hope this time they will print it big, bold, red, and if possible with LEDs embedded into the page...


@Lion: Yep, it does. Even characters Initiative 5 would get a second pass when rolling a 6.

In SR3 if you have a base reaction attribute of 5 or 6 (which was [Intelligence+Quickness]/2) and roll high enough on your 1D6 to get to 11 or higher, yes. Then you get a 2nd pass.

if you ain't suffering from any negative mods to that at least.
another reason for why i think it's the better system.
with a bit of luck, you can keep up.

In theory yes, 0 is neither positive nor negative...as long as you stay away from binary representations, which may have both a positive and a negative zero, and require special logic to consider both equal.
In practice what people seem to remember is something like "As long as the result is positive I get another pass, zero is positive [since it does not have a - in front], I get another pass"



What I dislike about the system is that all SR mechanics pitch each die individually against a target number, yet suddenly there is this one mechanic where you have to add dice together. The system works fine, but it somehow feels as the odd one out.

somebody please tell me 0 ain'T positive but nought x.x . .

This is a good point. It's not quite as clean as "always count hits" when you instead have a system that sometimes count hits, sometimes just totals the result. SR dice that have colored in pips wouldn't be good for rolling init, so you'd need two sets of dice for this. Not a huge deal, just kinda irritating.


Go home Stahlseele, you're drunk

i am at work.
i WISH i were drunk . .

Except, that bit you quote? Comes after subtracting 10.

It's not rocket science.

.... do you work in a bar, brewery, distillery, or other alcohol-involved establishment ...? ;D

Well, you could do an identical mechanic pitching dice against a static target number and then using the resulting successes to order initiative, but I think they want to avoid that because it would lead to a -really- narrow range of initiative totals, and thus either generally negate any value in reaction enhancing cyber (because it only adds to the pool minimally), or massively overvalue it (if it adds straight successes or passes).

I was under the impression that this was how all Germans worked...

something equally mindnumbing.
"Corporate Customer Tech Support CallCenter Agent 1st/2nd/3rd Level for Virtual VOIP based PBX Systems" for one of the worlds big Telcos . .
And yes, that "" Bit is the official description.

Sounds like you could use a drink

"Yes Sir, please turn it off and on again, that is the technical fix!"

When the crash comes, he'll be the first to go under the death robots

actually, i can't stand alcohol . . yes, i know, i am weird, even for a german <.<

no, i'll be on their side.
they'll need somebody.

No, the Acid test is ...Do you own a "Hoff" album !?!

They indeed are. Zero is signless, although signed zeros do exist in some contexts.

No.

No German owns a "Hoff"-album, but every German knows all "Hoff"-songs by heart.

Sorry, but I think you might be British ...

Back on topic though, I Like the SR4 Initiative compared to SR3.

you Always know you will have a set number of passes and can plan accordingly.

I don't see it as a glitch that the person with the most passes should always be faster than someone with fewer.
I see it as a product of trying to do too much in a set amount of time to actively concentrate on going first.

it should always be possible for you to roll a slow result, just as in SR3 it was possible for a mundane to roll a fast result

just 2 different approaches, and I think the SR4 makes it a simpler affair and agree with the comments around keeping the methods the same.

I certainly do hope that they do in fact return all the way back to SR2 for initiative. We've spent far too long kow-towing to whiny babies who want their Deckers to be equal in a fight to a Street Sam, IMO.

Yes. Everyone has spend the last 15 years bowing down to 'whiny babies'.
'Initiative is all' was BAD. Really, really bad. It took me a while to see it, back then, because I played a street sam, but _everyone_ who wasn't the combat monster spent fights doing basically nothing. So no.
Go home, and take your demands and hopes with you, please.

Yeah, I loved SR2, but SR3's Initiative change was very, very welcome. And I say this as a guy who had a "Speed Samurai" back in the day (He was largely an experiment to see how many actions you could possibly get at character creation. On a really good roll, he could get an initiative of 44, giving him 5 actions, and this predates stuff like Move by Wire ).

Bull

No it wasn't "bad". It just meant that Infiltrators (other than Assassin-type), Faces and Deckers didn't need combat skills since their roles weren't based in combat (Mages and Adepts had other ways to get higher Initiative, and most I saw were combat-oriented). If a session is 'combat-only' to the point where those other characters are doing absolutely nothing that whole session, then it's the fault of the GM for not putting things into that session for them to do, not the rules for not watering down an important component to a combat character.

@Bull: As I've said before, we still used SR2's Initiative when I played SR3, and the only character we had regularly breaching the 40s in Initiative rolls was the Unaugmented Mundane (MBW was generally considered to be a waste most of the time--and the GM had gotten some weird impressions of it, like that you'd get it installed then fall in the floor twitching uncontrollably in a constant Grand Mal).

Sorry, but "not all GM's are created equal"

and in this the rules need to provide a level framework for each party to bring something to the game .. and have fun.

NOT, "it's that big combat this week guys, deckers riggers mages and faces you guys stay home 'kay ?!"

Yes, and we're back at the evil GMs are out to get me arguments.
Do you know any other songs?

Did you actually play the game? Or are you stylizing this as some mythical golden land where everything is milk and honey and you're being exploded for standing next to your mage with an active focus?
For someone so vocally crying for balance in other things, you're sure inconsistent when it comes to a system where Player A hogs 15min in the limelight before Player B can even start doing anything at all.

If yes, you're welcome to houserule it. Consensus is: It sucked. So, deal with it.


I call bullshit.