The exact mechanics are less important than the overall idea that they will be implementing wireless modifiers for even gear that has no business being wireless.

We're not even talking stuff that reasonably needs wireless signal to work.

The examples given are devices that somehow work better with wireless despite having no good reason to be wireless at all.

The chemseal example is just flat out pants-on-head retarded. Faster activation via wireless? Guh.

Even the cybereye example is questionable, because in a reasonable setup, the cybereye ITSELF wouldn't be wireless, the character would have wireless via his commlink or whatever and that extra data would be just another sensory feed providing a bonus. But we already have that in the game, it's called a TacNet. And those get targeted for hacking all the time in 4E.

But the intent seems to be having every bit of gear independantly have wireless. This is just silly. It was silly in 4E, it's still silly. There are in fact ways to enhance the effectiveness of hackers without just willy nilly forcing new vulnerabilities on everyone else.

Again, I am not questioning the intent, just the implementation.

And if it is true, that the blog gives examples that don't reflect the way things will actually work? That would be even stupider.



-k

I really start to wonder if anyone on the design team has every played a decker, or gm'd one often enough to understand just how powerful they are in their own element. Much like how a pure Face is going to have problems being a top-tier combatant, a decker isn't meant to be trying to out-tough the muscle. Trying to force everything else into letting them be 'on par' with the combat monsters is not doing the game any favors.

And what about faces? Faces cant really contribute in combat (except commanding voice adepts). Does anyone of the devs care for the faces in combat at all? What is their solution to the face problem in combat?

SYL

"You should have made a pornomancer."

Buy a bigger gun.

Sorry, but I don't see it as a problem, really. That wasn't my department, at any rate.

So, why is it ok for Faces to sit outside while combat mages, streetsams and triggerhappy dronomancer fight inside and why is it not ok for hackers? Because thats more or less what the blog said.

SYL

Correct me if I'm off base here, but the whole premise is essentially 'make your shit hackable, or we'll give you penalties that are equivalent to it having already been hacked', right?

Faces can go in and play, though I really don't think they need to do a lot in combat; it's not their role. Why can hackers? Kind of a trope of the genre, I suppose.

Note that I said I didn't think it was a problem for faces to sit out combat, or to deal with combat by overcompensating and buying a huge frelling gun. I didn't say anything about the blog post. As far as that goes, I'm pretty firmly in the camp with those who think wireless everything, whether it would logically be wireless in the first place or not, is a bad idea.

You should see what we've done with wireless stim patches. And don't get me started on the wireless weapon foci. It's gonna be wiz!

That's the thing. Up until 4e, it wasn't a Shadowrun trope, and arguably the 'hacker does everything remotely, even their team doesn't know who they actually are' trope is both more established and far more prevalent in cyberpunk works and Shadowrun itself.

Welcome to Hackerrun 2075 ...

Previously known as Magerun 2064.

SYL

Why post stuff that doesn't reflect the intended changes? Why act surprised when people speculate on the info provided?

I won't argue what is fun in itself and what only enables fun, the point remains: Nobody would remove damage from combat, because everybody realizes that a game without risks is poor fun. In case of cyberlimb hacking however, (nearly) everybody went out of their way to expunge it from their game, which shows they did not only consider this element "not fun", they actually viewed it as getting in the way of their fun.


IN that case, I suggest you strike out the chapter on drain in your rulebook and replace it with the following text: "Magic makes little pandas sad, the mental anguish of looking at sad pandas is represented by the 'DV' attribute of each spell. Roll Magic + Agility to resist." I mean Drain is just a game balance tool, so why bother with the fluff that justifies it?

say about Frank what you want, but he predicted this exact thing about 6 years ago . .

Do you have a link to that prediction? I'm curious.

The more I think about this... the more I think this is an abomination of a rules mechanic.


If combat was so important to the deckers... then something with vital combat importance should have been made/updated to reflect this.

The biggest baddest example of this is TacNets.

Right now tacnets are also an abomination of the rules. Giving bonuses to pretty much anything and everything... sort of a band-aid added on top of the existing rules to support the concept.

I would have much rather seen tacnets integrated properly into the rules. Then since they would be reliant on wireless to function... having the deckers run rampant over them would probably do it. They provide a huge combat advantage... they easily meet the requirement of something wireless because it should be. It would provide a lot of options for misdirection (putting bad info on the other guys net), or outright manipulation of bonuses.

Brainhacking and the like... yes.. this was one of Trollman's big things... and I still don't like it as a concept.

as it happens, Frank was nice enough to provide the link here:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=325836#325836
which actually leads back to dumpshock . .
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19678

Thanks, Stahlseele!

don't thank me, it's because Frank likes to include sources with his stuff.

He brings up a great point, too.

"Slot off, fragger. I wrote it down. On paper. With a pencil. Then locked it in a warded safe with a mechanical combination lock and a precariously balanced thermite grenade inside."

This remains the safest data security method known to metahumanity, and literally nothing a decker can do against it.


My view on deckers is apparently at serious odds with the current developers. For a decker to be useful on-site on the run, hacking people's cyber or weaponry is the last thing on his mind. A front-line decker should also be your security specialist. Cracking maglocks, disabling pressure plates, even picking old fashioned locks.

Mages are along to deal with magical problems. Deckers are along to deal with tech problems. Faces are along to deal with social problems. The muscle is along for Plan B, for BANG.

wonder if they'll bring the dedicated rigger back too, if they already went back to deckers . .

I think Frank is being too dogmatic about it. This is not about making hacking opposition's equipment THE tactic for a hacker, this is about giving a hacker more options. That said, there is no need to create the complex system of thousands of carrots he is describing, it's enough to hang a couple of them in the most common places (like, say, weaponry, as it was apparently the plan with 4e).

Weaponry is the last place it would make sense, though. Beyond adding AR-style overlays for aiming (something that already exists as a seperate system, aka SmartLink, and has since SR2), there's not much you can realistically do for a weapon with wireless. Maybe make it tweet a picture of each killshot with 'OWND' overlaid in shiny letters?

hmm . .
ok, everybody has the ability to use astral perception.
if they do, they can see through smoke and darkness better than they normally would. and they can see the emotional state of other people which helps them with social combat.
and they can see life as glowy stuff, so they can see people trying to hide a bit easier . . but they open themselves up to attacks from spirits and mana spells . .
so they can decide to go full mundane and not use astral perception, but they lose out on all that stuff . .

wonder if they'll announce something like that next . .

Wow, the air is thick with snark here.
Every time I make a Face, I ensure that they either have enough combat ability to give something during a combat, or that they're nowhere near combat, but provide essentials to the group that ensures they're pulling their own weight.

I'm still seeing the 'everything is wireless' as a natural extension of what exists today and where we're going, though. From artificial hearts which can be logged into remotely, to smart phones, think pads, dedicated online laptops, Google Glass, cars which are logged into remotely for diagnostics, and so on, I figure Shadowrun's moving closer to Minority Report and I, Robot as a possible future.

I highly doubt old model drones will start running out of shipping containers yelling, "A Human is in danger!"

But maybe they will yell "EXTERMINATE!" ?

You meatbags overrate your importance. I, for one, happily welcome our new, alloy-girded, synthetic overlords!

All those things you mentioned?

They all have one thing in common. They all exchange information, even perhaps for diagnostics the artificial heart.

That's nothing new. SR4 already has rules for wireless interaction with most of that kind of stuff.

What is being proposed, as far as detailed by that blog, it not just info-devices being affected by "wireless bonuses", but seemingly stuff that has zero reason to exchange data. Like the chemseal on your coat.

Even things like that Google Glass, well, yes, it potentially has wireless, but does the camera on the glasses have it's own individual wireless? Does the eyepiece? Does the headband that holds it in place have a separate wireless antenna?

Because that's what seems to be implied by the blog examples.

I could be mistaken. I HOPE I'm mistaken. Because if I'm not, it's probably too late at this stage to go back and change it.



-k

The chemseal on your coat might convey data regarding air quality, anything it might be detecting, seal integrity, and so on.

Hmm. Let me think about this.
1) Chemsuit, since this is the example they gave: The chemsuit is wired, I can easily see that in Shadowrun. It keeps track of personal integrity, tells you if there's any tears or leaks. It keeps track of when it was crafted, and when the protection it provides expires (natural aging could cause it to not operate at best efficiency). It may use a vocal command to activate the respirator and 'lock down' the joints to provide a perfect seal once it's put on, but could also be done manually if you're not online. Of course, if you're not online, it can't report on integrity, expiration, and usage.

Exchanging Data: In Shadowrun, I can see pretty much everything exchanging data. The corporations would want to know when an item they made is being used (to see if something's selling well, and also to see how much it's being used once sold), where it's being used (what locations are 'hot spots' for the item, and where they should focus advertising). This just makes sense, to me. So yes, an item will provide usage statistics to the corporations, and in exchange the corporation will try to tailor advertising to the buyer / user. This also makes sense as an anti-theft device. Keep everything wired, and ensure that whatever is purchased is connected to the proper PAN. If it changes PANs, they can wait to see if this was an accepted exchange, or they may ask for the new user to register the device.

I think you're going a bit far with the Google Wireless - it's one device, made by one corporation, so it would be interconnected. However, try this: Your Google Glass talks wireless, so does your smartphone, as two separate accounts. They can, however, also intercommunicate, so you can operate some functions of your smartphone through your Google Glass. If your smartphone loses connection however, you lose some functionality with Google Glass, and if you lose wireless with Google Glass, your smart phone can't access some of the functions of your eye device.

Actually, to explain that: On a smartphone, you can store pictures on your phone's memory - but more and more, pictures taken get stored online (mine automatically upload to Picasa, for example, via Google). In Shadowrun, where phones probably have all their memory online (control of information by the corporations, so yeah, I can easily see phones storing everything online, instead of on-device).

Anyway, Google Glass takes a picture. It goes into the cloud (the glasses having no personal memory). It doesn't feed it to your smartphone directly, it feeds it to your Google account online, to store it. From there, your smartphone can access it, and then store it to the phone, but it isn't a direct glasses-to-phone feed for information. Instead, you have the 'cloud' as a central point that both devices talk to for exchanging information -- phone numbers, pictures, etc. It was the same way my smartphone's phonebook was filled in -- it took the information from my GMail -- addresses, names, and phone numbers, and created my call list for me from the 'cloud'. When I add a new name to my call list, it adds it to my Gmail account's contacts, so anywhere else I go, it's there.

---

So, yeah, if information is gold, then in Shadowrun, everything you've got provides information. Your underwear reports body temperature, how well it is absorbing odours, what kind of damage has been done to it from wear and tear, where you purchased it, how often you wear it, where you go wearing it, and so forth. This is all information the corporations want, for making new products, for promotion, and for generating statistics. So, your underwear sends information out. It might even get information in, to transfer to your PAN - letting you know that you should buy a fresh pair, or that 'your body scent is detectable out to a 5 meter radius, why not try new ODOUR-EATER Tide, for that fresh, freeway scent!'

See, I think part of the disconnect is 'why would runners want this?' versus 'why would the corporations / average joe citizen want this?' Most gear in-game isn't being made for Shadowrunners - Shadowrunners are going to want to hack, mod, and jury-rig their gear to suit their needs, and will probably need the proper contacts to get things functioning in a way that doesn't expose their identities to the corporations and to the public. And I'm fine with that. I'd rather that the game forces my players to think - that the shopping list in the books isn't just something that makes them go 'I'll buy this and this and this, and I don't have anything to worry about'. I want them to go 'I want to get this and this, bring it to my hacker buddy to tinker with so it doesn't do this, and does this instead'. When my PCs buy lingua softs, they have to deal with cartoon characters trying to give them lessons, or dealing with racial biases. A PC picked up a German linguasoft while in Tir Na'n Og, and got to listen to elven racism about how the language is so inferior to Gaelic and Sperethial.

@Tashiro: You recognise though, that's not really what the developers did, right? If the proposition was to incentivise/force using vulnerable equipment by making modified equipment more expensive, less available (replacements), more suspicious in some instances and yes, the odd piece of equipment even less useful, the discussion would be quite different, I think. But they chose instead to make wireless equipment more efficient, which fluff-wise seems to be difficult to justify most of the time and carries a lot of mechanical overhead. I get the whole "everything has a price" design philosophy but maybe they should have just taken it literally in this case as you suggest.

Ang again: why does the air quality sensor have to transmit the data wireless so that the seal can be activated faster? Why is skinlink, DNI, cable etc so ... slower, that it takes an increased time to activate?

---



And in SR it goes into your PAN via skinlink. Your example with the chem seal / body scent would make crime solving pretty easy: just look up in the sensors which personal informations were transmitted - runners would have to burn fake IDs every hour during the run, otherwise the SWAT team just casually walks to them and knock on their most private doors.

---

In the end I still don´t understand why hackers must become still more powerful. They are alreay the cornerstone of their group, without any hacking/tech capabilities there is no run in the modern world. And while it seems perfectly ok to exclude faces from having fun in combat (see quotes of the devs above) and that they just should use the normal combat abilities, it´s seems suddenly totally neccessary to make very strange rules and reasoning (which will lead to overbloated stats as usual) just to justify that. Funny enough this was alrady part of SR4 - and it was callled a TacNet - or drone control - or radio communication. Enough areas where both the team hacker and the enemy hacker could have enough fun in combat when manipulating the communication and data reception of the enemy team.

But this way?

---

SR has hundreds of different items, equipments. Will they all have different boni? That wouuld certainly be a convenient way to fill up white pages in a book.

SYL

First, that comment was specifically regarding why the seal would have wireless at all.

I'm curious, however, what you would suggest as an alternative means to incentivise having your wireless on.

Also, the whole thing about Faces is a misdirect - aside from deeply specialized social adepts, any Face is gonna be able to do a little bit of something else, and in almost all cases that something else will help in a fight. And even then, there's still War's expansion to Leadership to consider.

It's not a misdirect at all. Forcing other characters to make themselves vulnerable to hacking as opposed to telling deckers 'combat isn't your primary niche, diversify if you want to survive in firefights' as a basic design principal is what this entire blog was about.

The same logic will apply to hackers: Aside from deeply specialized VR hackers, any hacker - and drone riggers in particular - is going to be able to a little bit of something else (like learning to decently shoot a gun). So why force (and yes I'm thinking more of a stick despite the claims of it being a carrot) a mechanic that will provide the hacker to get something the face quite obviously doesn't? Particularly when considering that the hackers main field of operation is highly important to a running group already?

How about you first suggest a good reason why hackers should be able to hack everything instead of skipping ahead to how this ability might be made to work?

As I already said: a hacker is already the data research specialist, the maglock specialist, the security system specialist, the electronic warfare specialist, the computer security specialist, the team communication specialist , often the drone specialist and TacNet specialist. Right now, a (modern) runner team uses TacNet, drones and radio communication which can already be manipulated by the hacker on the fly, which is exactly what the devs want. There are already plenty of fun for the hacker, outside and inside of combat.

And of course that goes for "professoinal teams" with lots of expertise on electronic warfare. There are still the teams (NPCs and PCs) who play on a lower power/tech/knowledge-level (the gangs, the low level con guards etc) which can be fully wifi enabled.

In our group there is are two dedicated hackers and 2 dronerigger/hackers - and everyone has high level agents with full hacking suites. Rest assured, there is plenty to do for the gamemaster (and for our defensive agents) in combat despite having "only" drones and TacNet and radio communication running while the rest is skinlinked.

It is simply not neccessary to make stupid rules to allow more.

Question back: why do you feel that hackers need more things to do, both outside and inside combat? Do you have experience with deckers/hackers in your group/ on the side of the enemy?

--

If the devs are perfectly ok that a face is standing in the second row during combat (see comment of Patrick above) then I really do not see the neccessity that a hacker now becomes a combat tool hacker with a stupid reasoning. They are already the cornerstone of their group, spotlight whores par excellence and nothing goes without hacking/tech capabilities in the team (be it a NPC or PC).

And yes, any face can do something in combat. Why should the hacker be different?

SYL

The current announcement is more like "in order to wear these goggles which do not do anything magic-related you have to make yourself vulnerable to astral attack".

If a "matrix sense" like Telematics Infrastructure or RF scanners comes with a vulnerability to matrix attacks, no problem. But vision boosters and NBC suits?

I think the problem with deckers- sorry I'm old school I use the old term- is the game designers remember too well the problems they had in ed's 1-3 where pretty much the rest of us sat around the table twiddling our thumbs while they had their own mini adventures. I rememeber peopole actually going on burger runs when the deckers started running a system. It reached the point that in our games deckers were npc's so that the GM could work out before the game what happened.

That was fixed with 4th ed. yes there were still issues but overall it was a massive improvement in decking making it more a part of the game and like "Ghost in the Shell"'s portrayal. BUT the litterally decade + of bad decking rules still weighs on the designers' minds.

It's Catalyst. After the last few releases, I'm occasionally very surprised the developers can manage basic math. Considering the wider impact of game design decisions, I don't expect until we actually get hands on the game and the playerbase neatly excises chunks of the rules and never uses them... just like 4e.

It's not about you accessing the device, it's about the device accessing the Matrix.

I think I won't get into too much NDA trouble mentioning that. Just as long as I don't mention the wireless produce. Exquisite.

So basically, the matrix itself is acting like some plebtonium source to supercharge any gear that can access it? Sounds like the kind of thing that might come from Technomancy becoming better understood/more mainstream maybe.

There's no plebtonium necessary. We already do it in real life. All you need is a strictly controlled, tightly regulated network. You know, something draconian and oppressive in its implementation.

That's all I'm gonna say. I'm probably going to get yelled at as it is, and I don't want to steal any thunder from future blog posts.

Or, like me, use all the rules in 4E, and don't sweat it.

I don't know, seems like a healthy dose of Everything Being Online and Compatible to me...

WARNING!
TV-TROPES LINKS DETECTED!

He started it.

Does Dumpshock have some unpleasant history with tvtropes?

In the past it has been considered poilte to warn people if a TVTropes link is included (due to the amount of time wasted on the site).