For now. I am advocating a change - not that the Tradition gives the character benefits, but ... if the tradition has a more drawbacks than all other traditions do - either in quantity, severity, or frequency of effect - then, it should have a compensating benefit as well. (The converse is also true - if a Tradition has less drawback(s) than all the others, it should ... well, it should have something else unfortunate added to it, so that it's more closely in line with the rest.)

You say Bhuddism should be pacifist, and avoid mental control as well. I say, then, that (assuming that is more of a restriction than other Traditions get) ... it should get some sort of boost in return. Maybe a slight bonus to Composure rolls, for example. Something, to make sure that all else being equal, the Bhuddist mage is neither less nor more powerful than, say, a Chaos Mage. Or a Shaman. Or whatever.

You're not forced to abide under these constraints unless you take geasa or flaws to represent them.
You could be a buddhist who interpret the taboos differently.
Instead of "You shouldn't use manipulation spells" his thinking might be "You shall only use manipulation spells to help guide wicked or lost souls"

When the character is a Full-on "Ordained" Buddhist Monk, I take offense at that. I cannot find any Buddhism Vows that would allow such lattitude. *shrug*

In some cases, yes, there have been Warrior Monks. Not sure how they rationalize the tenets of the warrior with "do no harm to others," but it is an issue. There may be tenets of Buddhism that I am unfamiliar with. The most common forms I tend to use in Gameplay are Vajrayana or Mahayana Buddhism.

Unfortunately, I am unable to locate Monastic Vows for the Warrior Monks that differ from traditional vows of Buddhism. I Will have to look more in depth when I have time. I do understand what you are saying.

I honestly do not think you should be compensated for your Philosophy. If you want to be so, take the attendent philosophy's "Flaws" as NQ's. *shrug*

What if he's not?
What if he quit the order before he took the vows, but kept the practice... or his version of it?
What if he was never part of the faith to begin with, but rather a mainstream practitioner?
What if he simply browsed the net and based his beliefs on the aetherpedia entry?

The thing about magic is that it doesn't work because of tradition, but rather it gives you a certain structure to more easily manipulate mana.
An awakened bum might hold the deep rooted belief that a spoon he keeps on a necklace is grants him wishes. It makes no sense from a logical standpoint, but that structure gives him sufficient ground to manipulate mana in a somewhat predictable manner.

Faith is a very personal thing, the same would be true of traditions.

Problem is when the Player states that he is an ordained monk, of a prominent temple; Then proceeds to play the monk like he is Freddy Krueger.
It is a disconnect, and one that intrudes on game play. *shrug*

If you want to play the combat monkey as a mage, play a Tradition that makes sense to do so. Do not Pick and Choose to get the best combination, and then completely ignore the Tradition's Views. Nothing destroys verisimilitude and immersion faster. *shrug*

All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.
That you're buddhist doesn't mean you're an ordained monk

The "Buddhist Warrior Monk" issue is a major reason why most of the mechanical advantages/disadvantages are not part of the tradition, but instead of part of a mentor spirit, magical group, individual character, etc. Traditions are very broad; the narrow aspects of what earlier editions of Shadowrun called "Hermeticism" and "Shamanism" used to annoy me. There were plenty of historical magical traditions that did not fit well into SR3's Hermeticism or Shamanism. So either you had to develop a new ruleset for them (Voudoun, for example) or you had to do them an injustice by compromising the actual beliefs for something that worked with the existing Hermetic or Shamanic systems.

Buddhism has historically been associated with pacifism. There's a lot of good reason for that. But it also had militaristic movements. It was Buddhists who led the uprising against the Mongols in the 14th century. There have historically been militaristic Buddhist movements (Samurai and Ninja schools of thought have roots in Buddhism).

So if someone wants to make an Awakened Buddhist Ninja, they should be able to. And they can with the existing tradition rules. Any particularly "ninja" characteristics of their magic use can be applied through positive and negative qualities, or a particular mentor spirit, or a crazy spirit pact, or a custom magic group of a secret ninja society.

True... But when proclaiming such ordination, you should be following the tenets.

Indeed... Thanks Demonseed Elite. I may just be having issue with a specific instance. And I apologize if I sounded a bit crazy there.

I'll add that all Eastern martial arts trace back to Shaolin, which was a Buddhist temple. Kung Fu traces its roots to Buddhist exercise routines and meditative practices. So, a Buddhist warrior isn't anything out of the question.

There are other ways of modeling the restrictions on traditions. Aspected magic, mentor spirits, and various other edges/flaws can do so quite nicely. The tradition itself doesn't need to carry any mechanical bonuses or penalties, that's up to the character.

Very True... But what about the religion allows this release from the core tenets of Buddhism. I cannot find anything as such, and I am very curious.

I agree with this. I do think it is the Player's/Characters responsibility to model such things, not the Tradition's. *shrug*

This is also going to sound like a bit of Shadowrun heresy, but I also deliberately tried to separate the supernatural/magical trappings of a religion from the moral/ethical beliefs. I know that magic in Shadowrun is shaped by belief and so that seems strange, but again, traditions are meant to be broad, so I leave the moral/ethical beliefs to the character details. For instance, you can have a Christian theurge who is a total pacifist and believes in Jesus' "turn the other cheek." And you can have another Christian theurge who is a serious Old Testament fire-and-brimstone badass. Both have the same supernatural/magical rituals, trappings, and framework (they both follow a Christian tradition), but their moral and ethical beliefs are pretty far apart.

Perhaps what's needed then, is a book that goes into each tradition at greater length - mainly, in the form of some custom-tailored Mentor Spirits?

I mean, for the Christian Theurgy one ... the "big four" Archangels - Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, and Uriel - would be good picks. The Holy Spirit itself, perhaps. Various Saints. The Virgin Mary. Etc.

And, who says "mentor spirit" needs to be a literal, I-can-have-a-conversation-with-it Spirit? What about philosophies within any Tradition ... like, well, the difference between Gardnerian and Goddess Wicca. Or, back to Christian Theurgy, the difference between Lutheranism and Evangelism. I know, I know, it could be tricksy ground to walk on, but ... well, IMO it'd be awesome.

Demonseed:
Pretty much what at least what a few of us are saying.

If the pacifist christian theurge wants to get more mechanical benefit...
There already is a way for him to get a benefit... it's the pacifist negative quality available to all characters.


I've said it before... I'd like to see a little bit more mechanical difference between traditions... but it should be very minor and flavorful... for example.. a shaman gets bonus dice to summon a spirit of the correct type while in it's area just like in earlier editions he could only summon that spirit type on the fly there. The offsetting cost for this is it's harder to summon 'foreign' spirits into this turf.
Example: the shaman might get +1 or +2 dice towards a commonly used summoning skill for summoning a water spirit while in it's old school domain. But he'll take a -1 or -2 for trying to get a fire (or any other spirit) on the fly in that domain.
Example: hermetic might get a +2 to a very uncommonly used skill like arcana.

It's the kind of thing that's minor enough to ignore if people want simple rules... but nice but not making or breaking any tradition if it's ignored and you just run with the very nice and straightforward unified magic rules. It's more of an advanced rule option which adds some flavor with some mechanical backing rather than a mechanical benefit which ends up dominating the choice of tradition.

See, that's where the "advanced tradition" rules can come in. Pick a theme ("Christian") which is packed with "generally this is true" bonuses/drawbacks ABCD. But if that doesn't fit your view, trade B and D for E and F.

Would the advanced tradition rules still allow players to come up with brand new traditions? Or would they be limited to the in-book traditions, with options to customize them?

Of course they'd be able to make new ones. "Options ABCD" are just various thingies that are the mechanical tenents of the tradition.

The idea is to be like advanced lifestyles, with various examples. The whole "swap BD for EF" thing comes from the fact that new traditions are possible, it's just more of a "well that's not how *I* see Christians..."

E.g. "summons spirits"* or "pacifist" or "meditates" or whatever (just as examples).

*I'm pulling this from the old shaman vs. hermetic divide. Most/all traditions would probably have it.

I see. How about something where the player gets to choose PQs/NQs as part of the tradition, using qualities as the ABCDs. "Choose PQs and NQs for this tradition from the following list such that the resultant cost of the qualities is 0. The total cost of PQs (or NQs) cannot exceed 20 (or whatever). These chosen qualities are part of the tradition and don't count against the character limit". For example, taking Pacifist (-10) and Spirit Affinity (+10). Or Geas-prayer every morning (-5), allergy-silver(-5), Heightened Concentration (+10)

That could work.
There'd probably end up being other things that aren't qualities (currently) that would be available too.

But yes. We're on the same page.

(Also, not sure an allergy to silver would qualify. Traditions are more...ways of doing things, thought patterns, and behaviors. An allergy is just kind of something you're either born with...or not)

Cool.

With the allergy thing, I was thinking about how beliefs in SR are one of the things that drive magic. Judaism has a prescription against pork, so maybe a magical tradition based on Judaism causes this to produce actual physical effects like an allergy...and so on.

*edit* besides, you can develop or lose allergies in real life. I was allergic to eggs as a child, not anymore, but to equalize things, I think I'm developing seasonal allergies

When I build a character, I do so with a concept in mind. But rarely do I have the willpower to turn down a serious mechanical advantage because it's good role-playing. Most of the people I game with are the same way. If I say I have a pacifist character, but it's not written down mechanically, I will gradually 'forget' and end up knocking people down so my team member can kill them, possibly killing them myself in the process. If the pacifist flaw doesn't give me beaucoup benefits to make up for my taking it, I won't take it, because it's hobbling my character for no good reason. In either case, the result is my pacifist buddhist unicorn monk setting dudes on fire with the rest of the group, because it's the fastest way to clear the hallway of guards. And of course as a player I regret it the next day, but what am I supposed to do then?

I'm glad that you all have the sort of self-control that you can just mention "oh, by the by, my character's tradition prohibits him from taking lives", and you can just play the rest of the campaign and do that without issue. I can't, and most people I know can't (or won't even try).

I also just can't dig this 'whatever you can do, I can do too ... just at a -2 penalty, because I'm a raccoon shaman and you're a Harvard hermetic, and -2 represents how totally wild and divergent our world views are'. It just sets my eyes rolling.

What it comes down to is I, as a GM and as a player, want a 'define by default, exceptions are exceptions' setting. You define 'a shaman of X does this, and here are his strictures'. If my character sees that buddhists are pacifists (because all modern buddhists are pacifists) or that hindus don't eat meat and he wants to change that for his character concept, he comes to me and tells me, and we work through that if it makes sense. The rules *need* to give structure, and by definition, that means restricting options.

What I'm reading is 'permit all, leave it to the GM to do his own research on religions and piece together what is reasonable'. I'm not buying that book. If I'm going to have to research on my own, and deny goofy items as the exception, *why am I buying your book?* The rules do not provide the structure necessary for a coherent world. *I* need to create that structure; the structure I thought I'd get in the book. It's passing your work off on me.

Ultimately, if the rules you wrote permit me to make a character that mechanically contradicts itself or the world, your rules need further refinement.

No problem with that, it's hard to live up to ideals, why should it be easy for a character?

Where on earth do you get pacifism as a core tenet of Buddhism? There's many different sects of Buddhists, and they're not all pacifists by a long shot. Buddha himself was a warrior before he Awakened, and the Ahimsa are guidelines, not rules. There's a suggestion to avoid unnecessary killing of sentient beings, but no requirement to avoid necessary death at all costs.

The differences wouldn't be like that. It'd probably be more of a -2 (relative*) to A and a +2 (relative*) to B.

*e.g. Hermetic gets +2 to spellcasting, Shaman gets +2 to summoning/binding. The shaman is at a relative -2 to spells compared to the hermetic.

Yes, I do understand that, but I can find no evidence of that in the tenets of Buddhism that I have found. Which is what I am asking for. Can you point me to it? I am genuinely curious, as I have not found such information, and I would like to read it. As for being Guidelines... break them enough, or through purposeful pursuit, and I am pretty sure that you are not really trying to uphold your beliefs; and for a magician, that seems to be ripe for a Crisis of Faith. *shrug*

As for where I get that idea from... From Research, which is unfortunately at home right now... Though I do believe the research was for Vajrayana and Mahayana Buddhism. The base ideas come from the Noble Eight Fold Path, one of the PRINCIPLE teachings of the Budha (if I remember correctly). Which is followed will likely keep the follower out of the Shadowrun business entirely, unless they are very careful. *shrug*

Besides... Define Necessary. If you are a Shadowrunner, death is Necessary (if you ask any Player) by trade, and I don't buy that.

I had a character (Deep Cover Knight Errant Investigator) that tried his damndest to not kill, though he did on occasion through mishap. He used Narcojet Capsules, and occasionally someone died. Enough that it was a running gag. Yes, Death happens in Shadowrun, but it does not have to do so, and if your tradition espouses that death is bad, your character should try to avoid it, not embrace it with both hands and purposefully calculate it.

As traditions isn't ordained by some cosmic law I would tend to disagree. Mana works no matter what you believe as long as you have enough structure to form it in a predictable manner. As such the individuals view on his beliefs would dictate whether or not he'd have a crisis of faith. Not the written word of the book, again faith is very personal and interpretations will vary wildly, especially among people that underwent something as dramatic as awakening.
If you play a buddhist who's personal belief is that you shouldn't cause needless suffering or the death of innocents. He would have no problem killing the corpsec guard... They both knew what they were getting themselves into. But the innocent bystander caught by a stray bullet/spirit/manaball would be cause for a crisis of faith.
The shadows are full of people on the fringe of society, who do what they do out of need. You'd be hardpressed to find the kind of ascetic disciples you describe in the shadows. Tis simply not their place.

I'm sorry, I'm totally not understanding you still.

Are you saying that my raccoon shaman can do everything your hermetic can do, but your hermetic gets a +2 bonus when he's spellcasting? Because I feel like that's the same thing I said.

Why? Honestly, much of that should be up to individual roleplay, and not the tradition. Traditions are broad frameworks, they shouldn't get down to individual details like that.


Ok, no offense, but you sound like you're getting your research from bad TV movies. "Death is bad, mmkay?" does not occur anywhere in Buddhism. Death is a perfectly natural part of the cycle of life. Warrior Buddhists have existed from the beginning. I know many Buddhists who aren't even vegetarian, although admittedly many of the Buddhists I know nowadays are Nichiren.

It took me about three seconds to google this article on the Dalai Lama, where he condones the death of Bin Laden. The article really says it best. Buddhism especially is a path of individual enlightenment, and not a religion of laws and strictures.

With that much variation in one religion, there's no way that one Tradition should even try to cover it all. There are multiple schools of esoteric thought in modern Buddhism today, it's ridiculous to lump them all under one tradition.

Back on topic, I say that everyone should build their own tradition. It's completely silly to think that all hermetecists think of magic the exact same way-- they don't. Locking all shamanists across the world into the same five spirit types makes no sense at allt, since each of them have different views on which spirits are most importan. Each magician's belief should be individual, and demanding that the tradition cover it all is silly.

1) It was an example. It needn't be "+2 to casting spells" it could be something else (e.g. "resisting physical drain" or "resisting drain from spells" or...)
2) Yes, and you get +2 to summoning spirits. The hermetic isn't "better" than you at everything.

The whole point is that not everyone is "perfect" or "best" at everything. A magical tradition is one's experience with magic: how you learned how to do it, the beliefs you grew up with, the role and rote of the knowledge, etc. etc.

Depending on how someone grows up learning magic, they'll have affinities towards particular uses of magic. For a hermetic, maybe that's casting spells. I don't know.

No. A tradition is a loose overview of your concepts of magic. The rest is individual.

For example, in Sr1-3, all shamans had to take a Mentor Spirit (totem). Now, compare a pacifist Rat shaman with a berserking Shark shaman, and you'll see how much variation is possible within even that framework. In the real world, the differences are much greater than that. If you can get that much difference between two Native American shamans, imagine how much more there is between all the shamanists worldwide. Let alone all the hermetics, the Buddhists, the Christians, etc.

No offense taken. I actually have done a lot of research on this (I enjoy it, if that makes any sense), and the Tenets I go by are the basis of the Entire Buddhist Ideal. Please look up the Noble Eight Fold Path, which is one of the principle teachings of Buddhism. Maybe not all paths follow it, but it is at the core of the belief. Yes, there are tons of Variations, and yes, Death is Natural. But actually CAUSING that death is to be avoided if you follow Buddist Tenets.

As for Meat and vegetarianism, Not all Buddhists are vegetarians. This I know.



I am sure the Dali Lama condones the death of Osama bin Laden. Of course, I am also pretty sure he would never have been the one to actually pull the trigger... it is against his beliefs. *shrug*



I agree with you here. There are so many Variations that you could have a 100 Traditions and probably still not cover them all. Question is... If many (if not most) of them base their beliefs upon the Eight-Fold path as their core, how many of them would actually condone themselves as Killers? My research is ongoing, and I am always up for learning something. So, I am still looking, and will probably continue to look, as I enjoy such research.



Agreed... I am all about custom traditions... But there are lots of groups that see magic in the same way, so you do have societies out there (which are what Groups are all about).

Point. But it's a basis of understanding.

And an underlying core belief is going to shape how that person perceives and manipulates mana.

I'm perfectly aware of the eightfold path. Causing death is to be avoided, but unlike, say, Christianity, there aren't mortal sins. Buddhism especially is a path of individual enlightenment. How one walks that path is up to them.

The article says it better than I could. The Dalai Lama is an extreme case; it'd be like being surprised that all Christians aren't the same as Mother Theresa. And even the Dalai Lama agrees that sometimes, steps must be taken, which include violence.

Again, it comes down to the individual. Nichiren preached total non-violence, but Nichiren Buddhism produced some of the most militant sects in Japanese Buddhism. Jesus said "turn the other cheek", and yet there are many christians out there who have no serious reservation against violence. There's so much individual variation, I couldn't tell you; but in Buddhism especially, it's all down to personal beliefs.

Except, if the Character TRULY BELIEVES that needless Suffering and Death are to be avoided, he would take efforts to not use lethal force (and would probably not even BE in the shadows to start with). Simple as that. If he DOES NOT BELIEVE that in his heart, maybe he should be following a Different Tradition? One that is in line with his actual beliefs, instead of touting something he does not actually believe in.
Yes, It makes it hard to function in the Shadows with that particular belief, since causing Suffering and Death is part and parcel for most Shadowrunners.

My biggest issue with Traditions and Players is that they tend to select what is most advantageous to them based upon the mechanics, and then completely ignore what the Tradition is actually about. This does not just follow to the Buddhist Tradition (which is where I saw the most egregious example). It happens in a LOT of the Traditions that I see played. Mostly, I think, because the Player does not really care about the actual beliefs of that particular tradition, because they chose it for the mechanical benefits.

As a side note... Being in the shadows does not necessitate that Death is necessary. They do not NEED to kill. They do so out of convenience. It is Easy. Nothing worthwhile is ever Easy.

Yes... ish.

Let's use Christian Theurgy as an example. There are thousands if not more real-world magical traditions based on Christian beliefs. Quaballism, for example, has its roots in Jewish esoterica, and in turn forms the base of much of what you'd call Hermeticism. While they might* all agree that magic comes from god, how they perceive and manipulate it would vary widely. Some might call it down in the form of miracles. Others might believe it follows natural laws, so they'd be logic-based. Some might believe it's the intervention of angels and saints. Some might think it's from the precise invocation of scripture. Or maybe it's just a pure expression of faith. It all depends.

*And I'm not even sure that they'd all believe it comes from god. You could have a witch hunter, who uses the tools of the devil to fight evil. That's certainly occurred enough times that it's valid as the basis of a character.

I see that. Which is why I believe each Tradition should be custom-built, and each player should round out their character with edges/flaws and other traits to show their relationship with magic. That's also why I don't agree with putting mechanical advantages/disadvantages on the tradition itself, since it focuses people on the mechanics instead of the roleplay.

Indeed... Many of the worst atrocities in this world are perpetrated by Religious extremists. But I have to ask myself that if the teachings espouse Peace and non-violence, how do the extremists transform that into a practice of Violence? At that point, they are really not following the teachings of that religion. At that point, is it truly a valid religious Sect? Or is it a perversion of the teachings with no actual basis in the teachings at all?

Yes, belief is a storng part of Buddhism, but if it was just about the individual, there would be no sects. The fact that they exist shows that there ia more to it than just the individual. At least to some degree. It is an intersting topic.

But I likely digress here. So, Back to Shadowrun.

Indeed... I am with you on this.

And that's why it's got components that can be modified and exchanged on a kind of point-cost system.* The pre-defined Christian theurgy not quite fit your character? Tweak it.

*Point systems exist to preserve mechanical equivalence. For mechanical benefits/drawbacks you have to expend some kind of resource.

And that's exactly why we shouldn't add more mechanical advantages and disadvantages to it. If you want more, expend BP and buy edges. Want limitations, take flaws. There's already a system in place to get what you want, so why complicate the tradition even more?

Gosh.

A discussion on religion that is calm, reasoned, and free of flaming / insults?

Who are you people and what have you done with the Dumpshockers?






-k

So, in other words, I need to spend BP and use up positive quality points, in order to have a living place that has Helpful Neighbors? Or negative quality points for a defective CHN?

K, Tradition, not religion... there's a distinction


Totally want to make an WH Inquisitor now

You're shifting the argument. If you want that complexity, use the advanced lifestyle rules, not the tradition-building ones. Neither of which cost you BP or edge/flaw slots, I might add. Your tradition shouldn't be providing you with lifestyle advantages/disads, either.

Going back to design goals, you need to keep things simple and compartmentalized. If you can squeeze more dice by min/maxing traditions, edges/flaws, and lifestyle, people will do it. You need a simpler, cleaner, more balanced system.

I guess I don't understand what in my original post you're correcting. As far as I can see, we agree on how it's been implemented ... and disagree about whether it's a good thing or not.

Me: "I want tradition building rules like the lifestyle rules."
Cain: "You should spend build points for it"
Me: "So, the lifestyle rules should also cost build points"
Cain: "If you want complexity, use the lifestyle rules"
Me: "..."



You complained about another magician being +2 dice better than you at everything, to which I said "that 2 dice to that specific thing is an example, which may or may not actually exist if the rules were to be written down."

Apologies, I got lost somewhere. Where exactly in your conversation with me did I mention lifestyle rules? Pretty sure I was just talking about traditions. And anyways, that's a false equivalency along with a non sequitur.

Anyways, I personally don't use the advanced lifestyle rules because they're too much crunch for too little gain. The tradition rules are simple and easy, why complicate them further?

This... SO Much this...