Beg to differ. That's exactly what a dystopia is. That's what the word was coined to represent: Brave New World and 1984.

Utopia, after the novel, was a perfect place all the time. Dystopias were the inverse of that, a perfectly imperfect world.

1984 is grim and oppressive, all the time. Even the tiny moments of happiness are allowed by the secret police, so your eventual fall is even more thoroughly destructive. And, in the end, you either kill yourself or betray — and beg them to torture — the one person who ever loved you and whom you once loved.

That's what the word means.

I really don't see real life being a dystopia, except for a very small minority of people (which would probably include none of the people here, who have time to play RPGs). Newtown was terrible, but I doubt those people feared anything before that attack, and at least speaking for myself, I still don't fear anything after. Bad things happen to people. Sometimes they're justified, sometimes not. That's just sort of how life works. Speaking for myself, and most people I know, our lives are getting better. We have goals we can work towards, we live with some degree of security. We are 'humans', most certainly. My standard of living, today, is among the best available to anyone in the whole of history, and it would be fairly difficult for me to lose that. It's not a utopia, but it isn't a dystopia either.

Like Fatum pointed out, in SR, a Lone Star officer is a have-not. His pay (per the books) is a nose above the cost for a low lifestyle. Which means he has a low lifestyle, plus a little extra spending money now and again for ammunition or hospital bills. But at the same time, he's required to be the crushing hammer of a megalith corporation, to support the will of rich people in their gated communities, against his own neighbors. He's required to put his life on the line every day, oftentimes against people who are better armed than he is, with the knowledge that if he's unlucky, he gets dead, and his wife and kids go to the slums, and if he's lucky, he lives for ten years until he's replaced with a drone or some new kid with newer ware, and if he's VERY lucky, he ends his days pushing files somewhere.

Ultimately, I do like the dystopia setting for Shadowrun, because the game lets you break it. Everything is broken and the PCs, while not able to fix it, are still able to make that tiny bit of goodness in the world (be it through helping others or helping themselves). There's a satisfaction in that personal story you don't get with 'you killed the lich king and everyone is saved'.

I would be interested in trying Toshiro's story, but ultimately players need SOMETHING to feel like they're moving forward. They can sell their morality if they feel like they're getting tougher, or they can lose their money (and their lives) if they feel like they're helping other people. But only a very rare masochist will keep to a campaign where every mission is designed to make him feel like he's messing everything up and getting weaker for it. You lose your motivation to take on missions (because clearly it's not helping you), and I just don't think it would sell. But I'd be interested to try it out and see if my hypothesis is correct.

If I remember correctly, Brave New World was not at all 'grimdark'. People were generally happy, they knew their place, and they were safe.

However, they were dehumanised, drugged, and used up like batteries in the great machinery of the state.

That's the point of the dystopia of Brave New World: you are repressed, because you have all the pleasure you want (drugs and casual sex), but no freedom. And no love. It's forbidden. You're literally not allowed to have a long term relationship. No families, no spouse, nothing. There's only casual sex, with different partners each time, enforced by the State.

The dystopian thesis behind Brave New World is not the boot, smashing the face of the human race, forever (ala 1984) but the fact that no stormtroopers are necessary if you keep the populace drugged up and blissed out. Give them permission to wallow in pleasure, and humans will voluntarily cede all their freedoms. They will oppress themselves, conform to the dictates of the State, and never even miss their freedoms.

The "happiness" is a lie to seduce you into slavery. Every moment of pleasure, is an example of the government bribing you into passivity.

In that world, there is no happiness, only indulgence. There are no stormtroopers, but the populace is enslaved anyway. Feelies, soma, sex: and not a single moment of selflessness or love. (Until a barbarian is brought into their society.)

That's why it's a dystopia.

Now, one can disagree with the thesis. You can argue that it's actually a pretty cool world to live in. But it's still a dystopia to the author (and those who grok the thesis), because every moment is spent in a repressive world.

You're genetically engineered as an Alpha, Beta, Delta. You are born that way, and stay that way. Forever. There is no social mobility. But you don't care, because... pleasure.

That people willingly allow themselves to be oppressed, because they get pleasure out of it, makes it all the more horrible. One can see a brutal 1984 dictatorship being overthrown. But people addicted to soma, used to plenteous sexual liaisons with many people, propagandized by pornographic feelies, and utterly without families will probably never revolt.

They'll never fight for a better world for their children... because no one has children. Ever. There are only the gene banks, and genetic engineering, and bottles. You never have to worry about anyone else, only yourself.

And hence there is no hope. No possible salvation. Only passive sheep, enslaved by their own passions. Forever.

It's less a obvious, but no less compelling a dystopia. (And, rereading this post, my English teacher should definitely have given me a better grade.)

No, absolutely not. Dystopia was coined for one purpose, only: "the oppoite of a Utopia".

The world of "The Giver" is a dystopia . And it is not grimdark at all. If anything, it's bland and colorless, as devoid of unhappiness as it is of happiness. It is neither light NOR dark, not really.

Actually, John Stewart Mill coined the phrase (or, at least, is the first person to ever be recorded using it): "[T]hey ought rather to be called dys-topians. What is commonly called Utopian is something too good to be practicable; but what they appear to favor is too bad to be practicable."

So bad, as to be unbelievable. Or, as the New Oxford American Dictionary puts it: "an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad".

Everything unpleasant or bad. That is, grim, bleak, and hopeless, all the time. That's what a dystopia is, that's what the word means.

Good example of a Non-Grimdark All The Time Dystopia: Metropolis.

Just an FYI, "not practicable" != "unbelievable".

Also, H.G. Wells' The Time Machine, the very far-flung future part of it.

I'd call that 'grimdark' in that humanity is a food source, or a cannibal, depending on which side you're on.

I don't know, the mercury content in the food would be pretty reduced by then...

Oh, right...

This image from Double Exposure always stuck with me as a good indication on how the world of Shadowrun worked, even through all these years.

Enforcement

Metropolis also struck me as pretty grimdark. People living in giant, underground caverns, constantly maintaining (literally) the machinery of the super-rich.

But like I said, Brave New World, while definitely dystopian, is not grimdark. It's bright. It's 'happy'. It's fun even!

(Definitely though, the most common and most obvious dystopian setting is very grimdark. I'd say most post-apocalyptic settings serve as examples.)

...

If Dystopia is the opposite of Uptopia, you should run towards it, arms wide, and embrace it like a lover.

Have you READ Utopia?!

It's a miserable, miserable place.

"But Wak!" you say, "How can it be bad? It is, after all, Utopia!"

Well, it pretty much starts off by going, "Here's how you treat your slaves." Right off the bat? Utopian society has slavery.

Well now.

That's awkward.

From there, it gets all kinds of terrible, like how no one owns a house, so twice a year, they have a house-go-round, where everyone picks up their family and belongings and gets another house randomly given to them. Whee!

My personal favorite?

No one is allowed to have a kitchen at home. Or food at all, in fact. Instead, the center of each village has a long house, with great tables and benches. The adults sit first, and each is flanked by a child. Kid on your left, kid on your right. The kids are never pushed off to their own table, where they could, you know, talk, and raise a ruckus. No, instead, they're hemmed in by adults at all times. The slaves (!) then bring out the food, and serve it to the adults. Teh adults get to eat as much as they want, and are in charge of giving teh kids on either side of them food as they see fit. Child being snotty? No food. Child rude? No food. Child fidgets too much? Three beans and a carrot and lucky he gets THAT much.

Just page after page of just AWFULness.

Trust me, Utopia is a *terrible* place to read.

Go grab a pdf from teh Library of Congress. It's public domain, so free. Read it over the weekend. Join me in the horror.

A quick comment to those giving All4Big grief for his use or lack of the dystopia setting, please, let it go. There isn't a right or wrong way to play the game. There might be the way you like to play it, but as long as it works at their table, it's right. So ease off please.

As for the general "What is Dystpoian?", please take it to it's own thread if you still wish to continue with it.

The Dystopia-or-not arose out of an expressed desire to have that element removed from the RAW published game as part of SR5. I think we all have a fair and proper interest in whether or not that were to happen, and to discuss anddebate what is or isn't "dystopic", and what is or isn't "shadowrun" ... don't we?

My personal feeling is that it's probably been discussed enough in this thread. A moderator's asked us to take it elsewhere, so it seems likely that they're of the same mind.

Why do you people always argue with the mods? That's my question. Don't answer it here, though. You can PM me if you really want to give an answer.

... "you people" ...? Yeah, thanks for that.

And I wasn't "arguing" (in the sense you clearly imply), I was simply disagreeing. God forbid.

I'll give Patrick credit for not saying "Hey Pax, he just said drop it and move on." It may have been clear who he was referring to however, since you, Pax, did do just the opposite of what I asked, and continue on with the dystopia-ness (yes that's a word now), rather than letting the subject drop and move on.

It hasn't been a debate of focus on whether or not the dystopian elements have a place in 5th edition, although that is a valid concern, for some. At two pages of debate so far (roughly) it warrants its own thread, and should be handled that way.

That being said, the purpose of a moderating staff is , in my opinion anyway, to organize, occassionally referee, and enforce the rules. So please, if we ask for something as simple as dropping a subject that has been getting more confrontational than useful, please do so without continuing to debate it. Especially when its in a thread that has already been marked as, we'll say "volatile".

Now, before my own arguementative streak gets away from me, which I'll grant it may have a little already, please, take any further discussion of the dystopian aspects or lack thereof to its own thread. And don't tell people that they're doing it wrong if they frankly don't give a shit about the dystopian setting or not. Some people play it differently. And no, that isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general statement.

As always, if you'd like to discuss this with myself or any other moderator, please take it to a PM.

Back to topic momentarily.
I'd like to note how much more attention 5E is getting in this thread compared to the other products to be released.
Shows the levels of fan interest, don't you think?

I'd say it's just that people have more to work with when it comes to speculating about 5E -- that is to say, they've got four (arguably four and a half) editions' worth of bones to pick, and things to hope for. No one's played a Shadowrun skirmish-scale miniatures game yet, so it's hard to speculate/gripe/bitch/complain/hope there, since there's no existing frame of reference. No one's played a deckbuilding style SR card game, or (discounting DMZ) a board game.

I'd say everyone has plenty of conversational fodder for talking about a new edition, because it's something that's happened before and it's a direct continuation of the gameplay going on right now, and what's more, aspects of that new edition (IE, the basic game world) are central to the setting (which will be the foundation, then, for all the other mini-announcements). Speculation and conversation are easy on the biggest target, and the most important/central/iconic one. Side products, without any information to work from yet? A little harder.

Something I noticed - they've made a big deal in the announcement of all the developers they're working with for the board game and the card game, but not a single person, bar the Line Developer, is mentioned for 5e. Do we know who will be working on it and does the community have an opinion regarding products those individuals have been involved with in the past?

I'm not sure how much can be said without violating NDAs, but I will mysteriously hint that I'm sure it is not a room full of strangers.

The same artist also has a great illustration of just how dated "old Shadowrun" is.

Long Distance

On that note I would like if the artstyle moved closer to the 3rd ed stuff, I could stare for hours on the 3ed GM screen the 4ed one just left me cold. Admittedly some of the 4ed artwork is really nice (like the unwired world piece in the old core or the occult investigator) and more colours in the books!

I agree. My number one gripe of SR2->SR3 was the art got worse (and less frequent). Not so much in quality, but content. SR3->SR4 just got ... crazy. Some of the art was really good (I love the ork girl from the main manual), but you only need to search the forums to get peoples' impressions, and I'm inclined to agree.

Even if the game doesn't play grimdark, I like it to LOOK that way. It just looks cool. This wild-style 'cartoony' stuff I've been seeing does not impress.

Mm. I know better than to get my hopes up, but the 'Artful Dodger' stuff from shadowruntabletop is making me think they just might have unfucked the window-licking retardedness that is 4e's Matrix setup.

That would be nice.

"Mungo, when did you become such a good Hacker?"
"Since he stole the commlink off that Elf MCT Spider that he pulled the legs off."
"I pushes da haxxorz butten an' da hax happenz. I iz 1337!!!"
"Mungo, you're talking again, what did we say about that?"
"Iz nots ta."
"Exactly. Just... Play with the shiny new commlink."

Mungo doesn't have to be smart, he just has to dump Karma into the Hacking Skill Group.

Mungo Iz Leet!

Mungo did.

And no one except Mungo is happy about that.

"Mungo alzo iz 1337 at da MiracleShooterz™."

MIRACLE SHOOTER™ SCOREBOARD:
Mung0-1337 : 3.960.000
xXx-420-n0sc0pe-xXx : 1.500.000
[Hax]2cool : 1.450.000
...

Damn, that Mungo's pretty awesome at Miracle Shooter.

"OK, we need someone that is on the inside of that facility to get us in."
"Mungo haz contacz."
"Mungo... No, your old street ganger friends cannot get us in."
"Mungo parta guild in da Shadowrun MMORPG. I iz guild leaderz. Dere be a few guardz dat offered Mungo tour wit' friendz."
"You have got to be kidding me."
"Hey, his guild contacts got us into that MCT Zero Zone, remember? The Manager with the big..."
"Personality."
"Uh, yeah, personality."
"Damned hetero breeders."

Okay, I think I've settled on my main desire for Shadowrun 5: I have to be able to play Mungo in it.

You have created a monster Canray.
Can I have him?

old idea is old.
old troll decker:"me punch through server. this look like harddrive. i take with me"

Alot of ideas are old ones with a new skin, just look at Pocahontas in space... I mean, uh... Avatar

don't remind me, i just read a list of movies starting in cinema this year . . 100 movies . . not even a quarter was something original, just remakes x.x

Which is very sad...

Depends, do you count "Hansel & Gretel, Witch Hunters 3D" as original ?

More than the great gatsby and oldboy etc.

Actually, in the ONE GAME OF SHADOWRUN I'VE EVER PLAYED, Heavy Weapons Troll was quite the accomplished Decker.

It's just that his preferred sidearm was an SMG, and his "Assault Rifle" was an LMG to everyone else.

quite understandably ^^

There's a remake I want to see. The remake of the old movie Red Dawn.

...

Epic.

Apparently it was not as fun as the original. Plus, north korea replaced china as the invaders at the last minute, cuz investors didn't wanna piss off china.

I'd still like to see it. There have been many occasions when people have told me they didn't like a movie, and when I finally saw it, I loved it. I will admit though, that it would be kind of hard to be as good as the original, so I don't expect it to be.

Yup. I've even said that line on the forums, having heard it from my former GM as a "concept he wanted to play."

CanRay please write a Mungo fanfic.

"Draw me like one of your Earth women..."

No, wait. That's mixing two Camerons.


Somewhere out there is a great retelling of Avatar, where they talk about the main issue of the movie.

"Imagine if this was the AMerican Revolution, and a Native American showed up, taught the Americans his people's way of fighting, turned the tide of battle, and at the very end, got George Washington killed so he could sleep with Martha."

(I paraphrase a bit, but you get the idea.)

...

But we're probably drifting.

The Shadowrun gangminis are a thing I'd love to know more about. Plastic? Metal? Pre-painted rubber? This 'Bones' stuff that's all the rage? With the set just be a half-dozen guys in a box, paint 'em to look different, or will there be a LOT of them, five or six per gang, and several gangs reflected with unique minis, or what? Need more data...