With the attendant problem of the "One gun to rule them all" syndrome, I am willing to bet. *shrug*
Which is arguably a problem in SR4A, as well.

Only +10 Programs at Rating 6? My Cyberlogician has all his programs at a Rating 6 (or better). *shrug*
I do think that an optimized Decker/Hacker is far superior to an AI in many ways, and is far easier to do.

Yeah, that's why I allow for certain crutches.

His sheet isn't in front of me right now, so I don't remember for sure. I do remember that the first time I saw it, there were a LOT of programs with Rating 6's.

Accuracy should, at the very least, diminish that. You COULD get the highest accuracy you can regardless of other factors, but (a) That will probably entail some sort of tradeoff and (b) be a waste when you can just get the highest Accuracy you're liable to need.

New blog post, this time adding...eh...wireless bonuses?


Source.

So, tl;dr version: having the wireless function on your gear turned on will give you bonuses or better advantages. Turning it off will give you not-as-appealing advantages, but at least you'd be safe from hackers screwing up your shit.

Well, from a mechanics standpoint it's a neat idea. How they're going to explain in it in-Universe will be interesting, though I'd imagine it won't pass some peoples' bullshit-meter test.

Damn, I want to see these rules now. Patience...running...out.

Yeah, as long as they don't go nuts on slapping wireless functions on EVERYTHING, it's a neat mechanic, and still leaves the door open for giving hackers more stuff to do. Or, at the very least, more stuff that's viable than how it was in SR4.

Not to mention that, from what I understand, one of the problems that arose when they tried to implement this in SR4, they didn't clearly explain what the wireless function did for certain bits of gear. Here, they're pretty much spelling out what the wireless function does in-game, which should theoretically clear up all ambiguity.

Bullshit-o-meter not passed. *sigh*

SYL

Care to explain?

Besides the usual: "OMFG, how DARE they try to force me to not do the smart thing and turn off wireless!!!"

Well, first: personally (and the people in my groups / "RP environment") I didn´t have any problems with "it´s wifi, what does it do or why does this item have wifi" regarding your comment
.
And we all are pretty normal players. So I imagine that most/many/all people have no problems imaging what wifi can do or not do to you after careful reading of the basic book or Unwired (if you want to use advanced rules). Perhaps is a generational thing but we all are pretty used to wifi in our private and business life.

Second the implication of the rule itself. wireless communication as normal cable/laser/whatever communication is simply one thing: transportation of information from A to B. Now lets take the example of the visual enhancement. It it is wireless enabled it gives you dice bonus (despite the claim of abandoning almost all dice boni). Why exactly? Why exactly does a Wifi-sensor make your eyes better to see something? You can argue, that you see electric sources, that you have A.R. objects etc - but this has nothing to do with wifi. It´s a passive analyzation of what information you see. If there are "infos in the air" which are picked up by a sensor, why exactly does this sensor have to use wifi to transmit these information and not use cable, DNI or skinlink? Now, if you tell me that a tactical network can profit from being online and transmitting data between its member (like in SR4) then I totally agree and it´s a very good reason to transmit data. But seeing better because I am not only (passively) receiving data but seeing better because I transmit data via wifi and notvia cable or skinlink?

Now, you can of course say "Hey, like the Matrix, its a completely fictional "sci-fi buzzy thing" and SR wifi has no real connection of what we understand as "wifi" (the wireless transmission of information between devices). To be honest, I don´t see SR in the area of Feng Shui or Star Wars where technological devices are simply plot hocks. For me, SR, at least the mundane part, is far more grounded in reality than, let´s say, the Death Star or a Laine//Tron/Matrix-changed world, where the Net itself has become a new lifeform where we all live inside. It´s simply that: wireless transmission, nothing more, nothing less. And for this case, even if the pure mechanic could be interesting from a strictly mechanical point of view, for my gameplay / roleplaying / believability (I can make a difference between a wifi network and a firebreathing dragon, if that argument should come up) and imagination about what Cyberpunk and Shadowrun is and is not, this rule simply does not pass the bullshit-o-meter. Maybe it´s explained better/differently in the SR5 basic book, but right now I am more sceptical about my vision enhancement running better if I am broadcasting.

And yes, having an electronic deception (going completely dark or spoofing a wifi fake identit)y should be something pretty normal for runners starting SR3/Sprawl Survival Guide.

Translation: We have decided that hacking an opponent's gear is cooler than of just shooting in the general direction of the enemy is a great idea. Yeah, that makes no sense at all*, but if the intended result makes no sense, the reasoning does not have to make sense, either. Therefore we might as well come up with some bullshit about how wireless transfer is somehow better or faster than wired

*: Well, unless hacking now is possible in the same time frame as shooting and dropping into cover...

That´s indeed a very good question: is hacking still an extended test? Or is at least "superficial" hacking (like one-time blocking a pistol, door or car or whatever" a simple/complex action?

SYL

I'm with apple on that last post... summed up what I was about to write.

Wireless has nothing to do with basic vision enhancement.... vision enhancement is not AR overlay. But that is exactly what they make it out to be.


To me it feels a lot like forcing mechanics on people. Even then... here's an element of this I don't like. What is the penalty for hacking the device? Reversing the benefit? Normal operation it's fine... but if hacked instead of +3 dice... take a -3 dice perception penalty. Or are we dealing with nonsense like... your eyes turn off. Or full fledged... editing the field of view. Remember vision enhancement is *NOT* imagelink.

if they were to go with that, who would be stupid enough to actually leave anything online?
only mooks would need to, as the fluff demands for them to be accountable at all times to their superiors . .

Negligence in judging the impact of technological possibilities on the setting would be nothing new (Hey, this is cyberpunk. When was this ever about the impact of technological advancements?), so don't count on hacking being too complicated. Especially since the two examples given come across as being desperate to justify the supposed importance of keeping a hackable wireless on, it seems obvious they are hell-bent on making wireless hacking a thing.

...and as usual, I assume that for a PR display you show off the best example. So expect the justifications for wireless on other stuff to be even below that.

First flaw in your argument is assuming that wireless is JUST wifi. There are plenty of other ways to send data without having to send it through the Internet.

As for how visual enhancement can take data in wirelessly, it was actually fairly easy for me to think of how this happens: wireless sensors.

It's probably that there's some type of sensors involved in the vision enhancement that takes in data from the environment, sends the data to your PAN and/or commlink, and then uses that data to help you out on whatever you need to better see the world around you. So I interpreted it as turning those wireless sensors on and off.

And for the ambiguity on what was wireless and what wasn't, I was referring to the bit on trying to hack cyberware in SR4, in that some people interpreted it as being able to hack a dude's cyberarm and beat him to death with it, despite that the only examples of wireless functions given for cyberlimbs was to update software on the limbs and to receive diagnostics.



They mentioned in an earlier blog post that they were getting rid of extended tests when it came to hacking.

Welcome to 207x. The internet is no longer, the Wi-Fi Alliance never was. Any references you hear to "wifi" are merely shorthand for wireless matrix transmissions

I was referring to apple assuming that "all RL wireless = wifi". Which it isn't.

So what is wireless if not ... wireless? Is it cable? DNI? Skinlink? Laser? Microwave? Because regading this block, there are exactly two kinds of communication: hackable via wireless / wifi and unhackable via skinlink/cable/DNI. And one of them seems to transmit data far worse than the other. Why? Because thats the main point of the entire blog.



And again: why do these sensors have to be wireless? Are they my sensors? Are they the sensors of my enemy? Are they neutral sensors? Regardless: why does MY PAN have to be sending these data crumbs in all directions so that my vision enhancement can receive this data? Why can´t my sensor take the cable or the skinlink or the DN'i route? I mean we are talking about a +3 bonus, that´s quite a big bonus compared to your usual dice pool. The existence of wireless sensors is perfectly ok, at least in a no "super high security environment". The existence of sensors being able to pick up these signals too. The ability of your equipment working better when using non secure lines of communication? Not so perfect.



And again: why does this have to happen via wifi? To analyze wifi signals I need a receiver. From the receiver I use skinlink, cable or DNI to transmit the data to my vision enhancement. Why is that worse for my vision enhancement compared to transmitting the data wifi radio?

SYL

Guys? Seriously, I love ya'll and understand you are working very hard on this.

But this idea? It's stupid. Mindbogglingly, utterly, completely stupid.

It's a stick. Not a damned carrot. Everyone else operates at a lesser capacity unless they open themselves up to wireless attack. It is penalizing everyone else to give a couple of archetypes a boost.

There is NO good reason why a wire would transmit a signal less efficiently than wireless. None. That chemical seal shouldn't react any differently if it recieves the activation command via a cable or over the air. The second example of recieving better sensor data via wireless is perhaps a bit better, but we ALREADY have that in 4E - it's called a TacNet.

I can understand wanting to get hackers back into the game, as it were. But this way of doing it is just clumsy and ham-fisted.

Instead of just forcing 'wireless everything!', which was a silly idea already in 4E, why not sit down, figure out what parts of combat and running MUST be wireless to operate well, and create bonuses and opportunities for hackers to hit those? Like that TacNet I mentioned.

Hacker rounds also come to mind, if you REALLY want to have 'forced' wireless. Street sam gets hit with a nanite enhanced round of ammunition, opening him up to remote attacks on his 'ware and gear.

There are plenty of ways to make hackers more combat relevant that don't involve shoehorning wireless onto damn everything.

Chief among them, streamline the hacking rules. It currently takes so many discrete steps to hack a system a lot of players don't hack opponents even when they're wireless vulnerable, because it's too much damn trouble and it'd be faster to just shoot them. Fix the hacking speeds and you're already a huge step towards hacker combat viability.


-k

I'm gonna have to say you're wrong here. It's having an answer to the question "Why would you ever have wireless turned on?" - and thus restoring something to "working as intended status"; it's fairly clear that turning all wireless off wasn't supposed to be something you could do with basically no trade-off.

Without wireless, you have baseline functionality; you get a bonus for wireless. A stick approach would be to have baseline functionality for wireless and a penalty for turning it off.

Personally, I think this suits perfectly. Consider this: You have a smartphone now. So, what happens if you turn off wireless? It's the same principle. Or you've got the new Google laptops, which have no built-in operating system, it hooks to the internet, and all your programs are there. If you turn off access to the internet, what's available to you?

For most technology in 207X, I can make the assumption that most of the operating system / programs / etc, are to be found in the Matrix. The software for your smartgun? Online. The advanced options for your cybereyes? Online. This allows the corporations to keep track of usage, put in patches the moment they're available, and see how the typical person uses their products. It allows them to keep tabs of customers, so they can send adware, and find out what regions any given piece of technology is being used. Data is money.

I'm not looking at this from a 'what does the Shadowrunner want', but from the 'what does society / the corporations want'. I like having my technology hooked up to the internet 24/7, always running. Any time there's a new driver patch, my computer automatically detects it, downloads it, and installs it. If my friends toss me a message, I get it instantly. I'm sure there are people who would be driven to hysteria at the idea of having your computer online and vulnerable 24/7 - but I'm not one of those people. In Shadowrun, your typical person probably feels fine having everything connected and online. The Corporations probably love it. And that, in this society, is the 'target audience'. Shadowrunners? Not so much. And they'll have to decide -- do they keep things connected, allowing them to get the full benefits of what the device is used for, or do they sever that connection, knowing they'll get limited functionality.

I think, overall? This is fairly realistic - and that kind of realism is something I like in an RPG.

Under the new system, having wireless off is demonstrably worse in action economy than having wireless on. You might choose to accept the semantic wordplay but I do not.

Additionally, taking longer to activate a chemical seal because the signal is travelling through wires instead of through the air makes no freaking sense.

Bonuses to stuff that needs to talk to outside sources? That I can understand.

Even then, it's not the wireless itself that is the benefit, it's the information accessed by the wireless. You should get the same effect if that same information was delivered by via memory stick.

Gear that has zero need to connect to the outside? No. That makes no sense.

Given the chemseal example, they are planning on adding wireless modifiers to just about everything, not just stuff that would actually have a reason to be wireless. What is next, bonuses for having wireless underwear?

Wireless is just a information delivery method. People use wireless because it is convienient, not becuse it transmits data better than wired connections. It is not freaking magic.



-k

In reality, the information delivery method wouldn't matter. However, that's USELESS from a design standpoint - this blatantly is there to provide a reason to actually have your wireless on.

Also, the signal to your chemseal would be going through multiple nodes, rather than direct, which is a serviceable explanation for something that exists for a game purpose rather than a simulation purpose.

You know there is more than that, right?


That last one seems relevant.

So you've already read the rules then?

My NDA forbids me to answer that question

It makes sense when for example the wire signal is processed sequentially by each armor part due to construction reason. A wireless signal would be processed in parallel.

Underwear has always been wireless-enabled with RFIDs.
That said, my suspension of disbelief just crumbled and fell apart. You can't scan radiowaves without your device accepting commands over those? Electronic Warfare people sure would like it to be true. Wireless transfer has less lag and higher bandwidth than wired, and controlling devices over wireless is faster than over a datajack and a fiberoptic cable? Seriously?!
I can see the justification, but from the technical standpoint this is just so much bullshit.

Electronic signal travel at the speed of light over wires. Parallel or consecutive, activation signal is not taking an extra second and a half to get to the destination unless your armour suit is planet-sized.

Unless you have actual experience with network design.


Except in a sequential system each node must first process the signal before it is send to the next. This is not necessary in a broadcast wireless environment.

Another reason can be that wireless can allow for point to point communication between the different nodes which allow for a more seamless sealing of the armor which doesn't hinder the user as much.

I do, and if you claim that a device meant to scan the wireless must be controlled over the same channel it is scanning, or that wireless can theoretically work faster than wired despite Shannon's laws, I kinda doubt you do as well :ь

Not necessarily, if designed that way, it can easily pass the signal on before processing it, especially minding that the signal in question only contains a single bit of information.

This is a better explanation, but it would affect the degree of protection, not the time it takes to activate it.

First Course of Action:
Get Signal-Jammers made into Grenades to throw them around and give everybody -10 dice to all tests while shooting them safely from out of reach . .

Watch Signal Jammers get banned from so many tables because they make everyone recalculate all their stats (and do it again whenever they move far enough the effective Rating changes if not all wireless gear has the same Signal rating).

Which in a world of personal supercomputers is obviously going to take an enormous amount of time *rolls eyes*

But even assuming this was the case, there are these rumors that a broadcast bus (which gets the information the everybody listening on the bus in parallel) is possible without that bus being wireless...crazy talk, I know.


@RHat:

Like I said: They are intent on making cyberlimb hacking a thing, and if the intended outcome is dumb beyond recall, the reasoning might as well follow suit.


Apart from all discussions about realism and impact on the setting, just look at the concept from a game design POV: The moment SR4 was released, players were up in arms about the idea of getting their cyber hacked and only calmed down when it became apparent that wireless functionality could be disabled without loss in a variety of ways. To this day, threads about how to disable wireless on gear continue to pop up to in every SR forum I have seen.
Observing this reaction by the player base, one might get the idea that the concept of getting your gun, glasses, or arm hacked is not entirely popular with players, because they overwhelmingly voted against it with their feet. CGL's reaction, on the other hand, was obviously something akin to: "Damn those crafty players who dare to kick out an idea they hate. This time we will make sure they won't get away so easily"...

And of course characters ingame are still most of the time online during a run, except in a special "total dark run". Drones, hacking security systems, TacNet, radio communiction. Usually encrypted and hidden, but still online. And that means that an enemy hacker can still have some fun with spoof and edit. Even from a strict game/rule point of view it´s not neccessary - or an often requested feature by the player base.

At least Bull was honest when he said that the new matrix is simply designed as a playground for matrix battles with reduced/no connection of our understanding of what a computer or computer network is.

SYL

As an add in to a suit of armor? Sure. After all there is enough space for wires.

You're really trying to argue with space requirements in an environment that makes use of skin linked connections at nano levels and super conductive properties at body temperature levels (and above)?

i would not put it past them . .

Combat hacking, in general, is something they want to have work. It cannot be a thing if there's no cost to disabling all your wireless. Ergo, they need to provide reasons to have wireless running. You can still have all your wireless shutdown, it's just going to have an opportunity-cost - as well it should. Now, as it likely operates at combat speed it is probably going to be a fair bit different than the existing options; perhaps it's going to be more of an attack than a simple "once you're in, you've got control" style.

And that doesn't remotely resemble a game design standpoint, nor does it remotely get at the real issue. Further, "not a fun concept" is not a valid criticism when the subject is being the victim of an attack. Do you find your character getting injured to be a fun concept? What about being subject to spells like Control Thoughts? Most people don't, but the supposedly "not fun" elements are just as essential (if not more so) as the "fun" elements to actually create an enjoyable game.

Player base reactions can be many things, but VERY rarely do they actually represent a clear communication of the real matter at hand; for that, you have to drill deeper.

BWONG!


Edit: Sorry for the oneliner

Personally, I don't care about wireless bonuses. It's not important to me if they're there, or if they aren't.

But they are, in their current incarnation as described in the blog, not a carrot, rather a stick painted orange. Giving the option to have something without any effort makes it the default setting.
While the example of the chem seal is one I can live with, even though you'd have to ask yourself, why the same thing can't be achieved via skinlink/DNI, there are other examples that are downright unbelievable for people having grown up with actual wireless technology.
Now, there is an obvious disconnect between SR Wi-Fi and RL Wi-Fi, but the problem stands that the terms are the same and this makes it hard to suspend disbelief.
Yes. They are a game mechanic, with only superficial similarity to the actual technical concept we know. No, that doesn't mean that it won't make people cry if you call a cake a pie (or a magazine a clip, for that matter).

The questions for me are:
1.) Are these bonuses integrated into a system that's consistent in itself?
2.) Are these bonuses executed well?

Personally, I cannot, at this point divine enough information from the developer blogs to constructively speculate on either question, so for me, they'll have to wait for an answer.

Bad reasons are a very bad way to design a rule system. How about better enabling the wireless einvironment to influence battles? Even Cyberpunk 202 got that right - 1989.



So the less underwear i have the better is my armor when I am being shot? Because thats more or less the same style of argumentation regarding the blog. You do something stupid => your equipment works better. Sorry, as it was said earlier, this does not pass my bullshit-o-meter



Yes.

Honestly, good combat rules, which are exciting, plausible and usable/fast are very good for RPGs like SR. Rules based on "WTF did I just read there" are not. You can shoot my character, mindrape him, burn him, put him into an acid lake and whatever - if you have a good explanation. Your vision enhancement cathing funny info things out of the air when I put my smartphone on is not such a good explantion.

SYL

Oh great, now the people of 2075 not just do not know how to build a decent signal retransmitters, they also cannot put electrical or optical transmission paths into a suit. Which probably means the wireless transmitters you so valiantly defend are working with tiny embedded wizards, because you just declared it impossible to embed anything electronic into the suit.

Heard that "shwoosh" sound? That was the border to Nonsense Land flying by

@RHat:

If I didn't, I would not play this game.

1: Fluff reasons have literally nothing to do with the design problem. Nothing at all.

2: The entire point is to create a reason why it ISN'T something stupid, which seems obvious enough that I'm surprised I have to mention it.

3: Yes, good combat rules are fun. Notionally, in isolation, however, your character getting injured is not - rather, it raises the tension to create an environment in which your choices matter more and you're able to have more fun. Good combat rules contain "not fun" elements that are crucial to actually having fun. Implemented properly, this should serve the same role.



Sure you would - because for most players, it is not the fact that the character is injured that is fun, but the interaction thereof with the rest of the game environment. Getting injured isn't the fun part, but you couldn't have the fun part without it (or at least the risk). From a more basic standpoint (see: all the effort most people are ever going to put into this kind of thing), the two will seem like the same thing; this is not quite the case.

In the end, it's fair to argue that it's a hard thing to justify by fluff - but that's hardly relevant to something done entirely to handle a GAME issue.

I read the official blog. Which has activating a chemseal via non-wireless means be a complex action, but a simple action via wireless.

Which is stupid.



Their intent I can understand.

Their implementation is hamfisted and clumsy.



-k

I believe his point was that the blog entry is much, much, much too far removed from the rules to be used to make any claims about "demonstrability". You need the actual rules for that, because there could be a lot of interactions we're simply not aware of.

Question:
If the chem-seal can be activated via electronic signal, then why is it anything else ever than either a free action(thought/DNI) or simple action(i press this button)?
It's not like it goes from DNI/Wifi to completely manually needing to close all seals by hand all of a sudden, right?

Man, they'll go to any lengths to make Physads superior to Sammies.

I don´t care for the point of view of my characters. I care for my (as a player) point of view and how I understand, see and feel the rules of the game and the world. Being forced to follow a stupid rule (for a major part of the game) is not exactly promising. To be honest, I feel that hackers are integrated enough, between beeing data research guys, tech guys, eletronic infiltration guyes, maglock guyes, security disabling guys and support combat guys (if they want to go that route). To artificially force them now into the tool hack guys is simply unneccessary.

SYL

Just wait for TMs to be able to brain hack anyone just by looking at them ... and other TMs and magically active characters being prime targets due "handwavium" increased suspectability to such attacks ...