Well, that really depends upon the system's ARC. For example, Most of the tough systems we have cracked had an ARC that tried to boot the intruder first. Thjen it activated IC if it was unsuccessful (and only the IC in the node was immediately usable, any remote IC had to travel there, which takes time), and if that faiuled, then SPiders were notified and the weight of the system came down upon you. MOST such systems cannot just shutdown, as it causes havok with the onsite people.

The Zero Zone was a bit more difficult, as it had Active IC already in every node, and the ARC alerted Spiders first before trying to dump the User, all the while the IC was doing its thing against the intruders. Biggest issue with IC loading to the node is that it slows the node, which is counterproductive most of the time for the system, so there will likely be a limited amount of IC available for any given node. Once that limit has been reached, well...

There are things a GOOD Hacker can do to extricate himself from this situation. Our hacks run very similar to how Decking actually ran, except that it is 20 times faster, as it flows with the physical combat of the scene. Everyone stays in synch and we move as a team. *shrug*

Maybe that's true. I don't play SR4A. But it seems like people are still complaining about it, so ... *shrug*




This is true (dangerously so), but most of us at least have a concept how a gun *works*. My mom has never touched a gun, but if I handed her one, she'd at least think she knows how to hold it, where to aim it, and how to make it fire. If I asked her to write a story about a gun, the issue would be with 'how do I write a story?' not 'how does a gun work?' Sameso with beating door locks, combat tactics, politics, electronics, swords, etc. We see them handled as part of our regular lives. We see it done in movies. We know what the hero looks like when he's using them, and we can describe that to our friends.

Now give my mom a laptop with wireshark, metasploit and a wireless sniffer and tell her to hack. What do you think the result is? How effective is she at telling a story about how to use it?



No question. But the job of the hacker is getting around them A hacker who says "well dammit, there's a firewall blocking every port but this one, and this port is encrypted using a password, I can't do anything!" isn't a very effective hacker.

Similarly, facilities are built to have bottlenecks. Still I find shadowrunners have issues just using the damn front door like everyone else.

If the system is about people who professionally evade the bottleneck to do illegal things, it ideally should make it easy for players and GMs to visualize and describe how they do that. The SR matrix mechanics just don't support that.



I've yet to see a decker who doesn't have the maximum skill in at least one or more combat skills as well. They always 'do something else'.

If I were to try to rework hacking, I'd do it as such;

First, I'd break up the hacking tasks. For each task, I'd say 'is this solo, or can it be a group thing? Is it a fun activity, or should it be minimized?' 'Is this a fast activity, that can be reasonably accomplished during a run? If not, should it be, for dramatic purposes? Or can we make it realistic without making it boring?' 'Is this something that non-techie players can visualize, explain, and play with? If not, how can I make it so it is?' After that, I'd see about making the mechanics provide a good brain puzzle, because that's how I like to play, but I expect most people don't, so I won't.

So hacking activities:
- Footwork/research - Usually solo, boring, slow, easily visualized. Reduce this to basic rolls unless it's character interaction or world development.

- Making/upgrading computer gear - As above

- Providing overwatch during a run - This can be incporated into a group, same as a mage providing astral overwatch (even easier, in fact). The decker doesn't get time compression. He also can't see the world like someone on the ground does (unless he's actively spending actions to peer throuh cameras). Instead of seeing people and such, he sees the location of wired devices and user IDs. He has access to data flows and alerts; a level of data overlaid and directly integrated with real events. He has the ability to take utilitarian and support actions (close doors, make calls, etc., based on the facility) to support the group. Different categories of actions sometimes take another action to 'setup', as he breaks into another node. He is vulnerable to damage; while he is doing an action, or 'jamming' a particular device, if that device is damaged, he takes mental feedback. So if he's closing doors on guards, he is IN the battle, and has skin in the game.

Providing overwatch over a long period doesn't guarantee he'll get booted out. It's only making a ruckus that is an issue. Matrix layout is based on logical, physical layouts, not (usually) on network diagrams. The firewall is normally at the boundary of the facility, with the physical servers stored somewhere deeper inside. Subnets are segregated, requiring work to jump from one to the other. Within each subnet, it's as though he's looking at a top-down map, a tactical view, with a lot of critical details hidden until his team discover them.

Active matrix security is both programs which reduce his effectiveness, even shutting down the subnet, and virtual people (either IC or other hackers) that can directly attack him in matrix combat, attack his friends, or counter-act his actions.

Having friends in the matrix lets him do more actions at once, since they can do basic tasks, but his skill is necessary for the tough parts, with them doing much more basic things (like opening doors or watching camera feeds).

In the real world, the hacker relies on his team providing the physical connection to devices; either holding a receiver within range of a wireless area, using laser links to attach to devices, or plugging stuff in. If his team falls or has to move, he loses that connectivity.

- Hacking devices/systems - I like how SR4 gave everything a representation in the matrix world (but not that everything is wireless and connected). People seem to understand this, and it permits very fast hacking of devices. Networks are groups of multiple devices, including some IC and a LOT of business devices, protected by physical/matrix protections (airgapping being the strongest and cheapest). Things are broken up into either disconnected or connected subnets, which the hacker may have to suss out through exploration, or through legwork. Devices may provide bottlenecks, but if you connect through another device on that network, you can still get in. This makes hacking very visual, permits a lot of complexity, permits the involvement of the group, but keeps it very simple.

- Hacking activities - this is the realistic part of hacking. Make hacking very hard, but successful legwork gives you bonuses. (Legwork includes dissecting devices on the network, network maps, password lists, network traffic, etc.) The biggest part of hacking is the legwork which, as noted earlier, is reduced to character interactions and a few basic dice rolls. The hacker may spend a week with his computer analyzing traffic, but it doesn't slow play down.

People complain about everything, always. There's no pleasing everyone.

Of course, on the one hand, firearms were designed to be used by peasants with three years of church school for education. On the other hand, you see, giving your mom a machine gun will be just about as productive as giving her a hacker's laptop. It's true that even most roleplayers (hell, even most IT professionals) have problems with visualizing hacking - but that's why Shadowrun uses Matrix with visual metaphors.

The matrix rules just virtualize it. Instead of looking for possible ways in by hand, like you'd do in meatspace, you're "scanning the target". It's the same process, really, up and including the risk of intrusion being detected.

As for your suggested Matrix usage - how is it all that different from what fourth edition already has? You already can roll data search as a single extended roll (same for any other extended test like coding and whatnot), provide help to the team, etc.

I don't play 4th edition. Maybe I just described it perfectly; I wouldn't know. I'm only responding to the repeated complaints against 4th edition I read here on the forums by people (I assume) do play 4th edition and find it unsatisfactory. If my 750-word post (not just the 20 words about legwork) perfectly describes SR4 and fixes nothing, well .. I happily admit CGL scooped me, and maybe I should study a bit more about this 4th edition to see how well it actually works in play.

I do disagree with you regarding the machine gun comment though. Most people can still figure out which end you point towards the target, the tiny lever you depress to make it shoot, etc. Not saying she could get a machine gun to work, but she could tell me a convincing story about it. She has looked at my laptop and she got as far as turning it on. Aaaaaand ... that's about it.

It's not that you described it perfectly, but it got pretty close. I think the fourth Wireless World chapter may be worth at least flipping through.

You see, your mom might be able to describe using the machine gun well enough for someone who has about as much experience with firearms as her to pay more attention to the story than the inconsistencies in it (because anyone who's used one would catch that it's an elderly woman writing as soon as she gets to reloading or cases flying or that). But that's what visual metaphors are used for in SR Matrix: you don't use the well-known vulnerability in the encryption stack of the proxy program to get root priviledge, your digital cowboy bursts into a node on his trusty steed guns blazing etc. You only need a convincing story as far as crunch goes, and like any rulesystem, that one operates on a very limited field.

Multi-role deckers were a lot more common and viable in SR3. To be a good decker, all you needed was two things: a good cyberdeck and a high Computer skill. Since in SR4/4.5, the computer skill was broken up and level-restricted, it's much harder to be effective as a decker and still be good at other things, like combat. I had a good decker/rigger who could not be done as a starting character in SR4.5, despite the fact that the roles were somewhat merged. Decker/faces were common, and the Combat Decker archetype in the SR3 BBB looked suspiciously like a light sam.

Heavy Weapons Troll was also a Decker. Surprised the hell out of the group until they realized his English was pretty good for being a second language, and from someone who just came from a major Spanish-speaking part of the world (Originally, he was from Siberia.).

And when the other icons start firing back, you start noticing where the metaphore fails:

Standing there like an idiot is just as effective as dodging or finding cover.

There are no modifiers of any kind. No vision penalties, no cover, no dodge, no range. All you ever get is Armor.

Which works both ways.

But I disagree...
Sculpted Systems provide such things in the environment. *shrug*
And you have sneak skills to blend in (sounds like concealment to me)
And You do have Dodge, it is your Ressponse. Forgot about that did ya?
Range is a non-starter anywyas 95% of the time, No different than being in the 1st Increment of all weapons. *shrug*
AND you have Armor. Seems like a normal combat to me. *shrug*

No, the Stealth program is the equivalent of the Stealth skill. You forget that there are four things that effect a meatspace skill dice pool:
1) Skill (Replicated in VR)
2) Attribute (Replaced with Program in VR, mechanically)
3) Equipment, eg. comeleon suit (Non-existent in VR)
4) Environment, eg. fog (Non-existent in VR)



Dodge (skill), not a dodge (roll). There is no such things as a "full defense" in the Matrix.



So lets see. Of several aspects of meatcombat, Armor ends up being the only one which is correctly(?*) replicated in VR.

*Except for, you know, impact vs. ballistic. In RV it doesn't make any difference if your icon is punching someone, or firing an assault rifle, or a water gun filled with DMSO/Neurstun. It's all the same roll on both sides.

The Matrix combat is not meant to be the exact copy of meatspace one, Draco18s. It's simplified to take less time, if only because of the whole party only one character participates.

Or even a clown smashing a pie in your face. A pie hurts just a much as a nuclear bomb, as long as we are talking "in the matrix".

The Matrix is Narrative, so yes, all weapons are equal in the Matrix, assuming they are of the same program rating.

No, but you are missing my point:

There are no tactical options in VR.

And because there are no tactical options, "having friends" is non-viable, which contributes to the "subgame" mentality.

Why is having friends non-viable, exactly? We have multiple people in the targeted systems fairly often, and let me tell you, having friends is extremely viable. Especially if you and your friends outnumber the opposition.

And there are a Lot of Tactical options in VR, you just are not recognizing them. Using Stealth to fade is a tactical option... moving to a new node is a tactical option... deploying IC/Worms/Agents is a tactical option... etc. Just because it is not THE SAME as meat combat does not mean that tactical options do not exist.

And how often do your stealth-2, expoilt-2, response-2 friends set off all of the alarms?

Or are they just as beefed up as the primary hacker?

(Pro-tip: A group cannot hack a tough system more effectively than a single hacker)

Stealth -2, Exploit -2 and Response -2? Where do you get those numbers?

No, they are not as beefed up, but some systems do not need uber hacker Delux. And even in those systems, the uber hacker goes in, sets up accounts for the others and they come in unhindered. pretty easy to do, too. For clarity: We have a Cyberlogician and Technomancer in the Prime Team, with 2 others who can provide decent cover in the Matrix due to soem skill and then assistance from the Cyberlogician. In fairness, the team members all have over 300 Karma, though, so we have broadened the characters a bit.

Pro-Tip: A group can cause havok in a system if you set it up right. And since it is not all that hard to set it up, and even provide your team with good 'links and programs for the run, your comments are pretty confusing. Seems like you have an antipathy for Hackers, so you do not put any effort into it.

It's called making shit up.



So.
In other words.
It only works after the hacker's already in.
And it's been previously established that once the hacker is in
He's pretty much not limited in terms of how many actions he can carry out in order to get what he needs.
And bringing in friends is a force multiplier
On the number of actions Performed
Under a non existent
Time limit

True fact, children: Commlinks with matrix stats of 1 or 2, are for middle-school children, not shadowrunners ... a.k.a. "freelance black operative specialists", a.k.a. professional deniable assets".

If your 'link has any relevant numbers below 3, you need to quit the biz and go apply for a wageslave position. Yesterday.

Not that I don't agree with yoru overall point. But, seriously ... response 2? Presumably, system 2? Please.

Point was that in order to be not-dead as a result from hacking you need to spend a good portion of your skill and gear allocation towards being a hacker.

One might even say, a non-trivial amount.

You are wrong here. Not one serious system (as a team that ran together for many years) did we have a non-existent time limit, as we more often than not were eventrually discovered and had to run and gun through the system to get what we came for (Zero Zones REALLY suck for this aspect, as you get discovered pretty fast). NO ONE will move through a system completely undetected unless he is slumming (which we also did from time to time, but they were not serious systems, duh). A HAcker/Technomancer will eventually do something that draws attention. That is why there are tactical options that you can fall back on. Hell, even our Technomancer with his Threaded Stealth 14 set off alarms more often than not, since it is a contested roll. My personal Cyberlogician? I load up on IC and Worms and deploy them as bait, once I have been discovered (note: I expect to eventually be discovered, because it happens), and then attempt to hide and extend, hopefully while still being able to get what I came for, in true Shadowrun Decker\Console Cowboy Fashion. *shrug*

By RAW, The only gear you need is a good Comlink. 15,000 Nuyen will get you where you need to be. In the grand scheme of things, that is pretty trivial. As for the programs, your Hacker cna provide programs on a need basis that will get you what you need (he has them anyways, and he likely keeps them up to date). The only other resource you need is a couple of skill points in a couple of skills. *shrug*

At our table, Program ratings do not count as Attribute (we are currently using Attrribute + Skill, Programs act as Reach). So yes, you will not give the Logic 1 Dumpstated character the mission to help in the Matrix, he will be hard backup onsite. Not really a concern at our table, however. *shrug*

Indeed, once a working relationship has been established, one of the off-camera activities I presume any good hacker assumes is "IT guy for the group".

Less-viable in an Ensemble setup like Missions, sure. But in a regular campaign, the same characters working together job after job? Yea, that's an Established Team ™, and being the group's IT Guy is part of what the hacker should be doing.

No he can't. Programs are single-instance only.
Unless they're pirated, in which case, your hacker is hemorrhaging money on a regular basis.
Unless he codes his own programs, in which case your hacker is hemorrhaging free time and money all of the time.

No they are not... You crack them and boom, many copies from 1. No need to pirate them first. You COULD priate them, but it is not a requirement. That is why they have cracking rules. *shakes head*

Ummm... You can also update programs, it is called patching, and costs absolutely no money at all. *Shakes Head*

Which is what most hackers probably do in their free time anyweays. *Shakes Head*

Just becasue you see barriers to this, it does not mean everyone has these barriers.

Patching pirated software doesn't cost money.

Coding your own, ditto.

And a lot of GMs ditch the nonsensically stupid Patching rules, or else modify them to be MUCH shorter intervals, anyway ... because as-written, they're simply unplayable.

Which use the Extended Test rules, with a threshold of...19 for hacking programs.

Doesn't your table use diminishing dice pools?



But it takes time. And in order to reduce that time to something usable (i.e. less than a week) you have to spend money.

Or it costs money.



See above.

No, the threshold is 13+Rating. Unwired, page 94.


10% of the difference in street value is not so great an amount of money. And you only need to pay it once for the whole group, not once per person.

Once cracked, you never have to do it again, and you do not have to crack self-written software.



Only when it matters. Never when it does not. Besides, I can buy hits and crack the software with my DP, even with Diminishing DP's.
DP 15 gets me 3(15dp)+3+3+3,+2(11dp),+2,+2,+2, +1(7dp), +1, +1, +1, 0 Bought after 4 Dice. That equals 3+3+3+3+2+2+2+2+1+1+1+1= 24 Hits.
Hell, a DP of 14 could do it. And that is for a Rating 6 Program. Piece of cake.
Bought, I get even more with the Averages, and an additional 3 rolls till I hit 0 Dice. So, what exactly is the issue with Cracking the Software? Oh right... Diminishing Dice Pools. *shrug*




Time is negligable. I can reduce time by a factor of 8 with Programming Environment (cost are negligable), Rushing a job (having a friendly mage stops that issue) and Spending an Edge point. So your bese week (40 Hours) to patch a program becomes 5 Hours; and assuming you do not want to actually spend Edge, it is 10 Hours. Where is the time requirement, Exactly?


What money exactly? Programming Environments are cheap to rent, and you can buy your own (sure, it is an outlay of money, nbut it can be rented).



What am I looking at. The negligable time, or the negligable money? Not sure what point you are trying to make here. *shrug*

And he's probably using Rating 6, no?



It's still money that is slowly leaking out of the hacker's pockets, and added up over the number of programs and over time...

Maybe.

Or maybe he's using Rating 5.

Or maybe he's advanced enough to be slinging R8 programs.


Okay, let's assume R6 is the target. Your program degrades to R5. For a Hacking program, the difference in Street Price from R5 to R6 is 1,000¥. 10% of that is 100¥. Chump change, really.

OTOH, patching it manually is a Threshold 2 test, with an Interval of 1 week. As Tymaeus described, you can Rush the job, while using a Programming Environment (which you can actually code yourself), to get the job done in 1/4 that time, or about 10 hours of coding.

Any hacker doing this, almost certainly has a Programming Suite of their own, probably R5. Logic 6, Software 6, specialised in Programming +2, Hot-sim VR for +2 more (and why not?). Assume another .... oh, 3 dice, from either Augments or Adept abilities. 24 dice, halved to 12 for Rushing it. Buy three hits, and VOILA ... success.

And if you want to spend some Edge, you can cut that down to only five hours' work.

You do not halve your DP when Rushing a Job. You count potential Glitches on 1's and 2's instead, unless I drastically missed something.

Oh, my bad. That makes it even more ludicrously easy, then.

I think as a GM, I would still halve the DP for the purposes of buying successes though. Has to be SOME drawback to Rushing, and if it's not going to be increased chance of a glitch (no dice actually rolled), it should be something else.

That makes sense. I hate buying Successes, as I like to roll my dice, but sometimes it is worthwhile.
Besides, if you have a Friendly mage, he can summon a Rank 1 Spirit with Guard, and you never worry about Glitches either.

or you simply can't buy successes when rushing a job. Buying hits is only recommended when the character has plenty of time and little chance of failure.

Rushing with a Guarding Spirit means there is NO chance of Glitch or Critical Glitch.

When buying hits for Cracking Copy Protection on a R6 Hacking Program:

DP:Intervals
14:9
15:8
16:7
17-18:6
19-21:5
22-27:4
27-39:3
40+:2

With a DP of 24, even Rushing isn't going to fail; that's statistically 8 successes versus that threshold of 2.

And a glitch != failure.

... for what rating program? The threshold is not static.


With a DP of 24, you get 6 hits. Presuming this is a Hacking program:

R1 through R5 all take 3 intervals (Threshold 14 to 18).

R6, through R10 (the maximum) take 4 intervals (Threshold 19 through 23).

So the rating of what you're cracking, really does matter.

Ohm i was calculating for R6 Programs.

You're only supposed to allow 4:1 when there aren't any serious negative consequences or the chances of a negative outcome are extremely low. IE: shooting the truck with 40 armor and body with a heavy pistol... the odds of not rolling 6 or 7 out of 40 dice is less than 1%. Similarly a lot of extended tests are balanced by the fact that any glitch result on any roll of the test taints or results in severe repurcussions. (spoofing a lifestyle is a good example).


But a lot of the biggest abuses are when people allow people to 4:1 half the tests that people regularly bring up... such as hacking, spell drain... etc. The pools aren't big enough to justify 4:1 and there are serious drawbacks if rolls are a glitch. Extended tests in particular should never be 4:1'ed.. if I have a 1 in 400 chance of a glitch on *1* 10 dice roll... think how big it is after making a few rolls with a reducing dice pool... It's about the same as rolling a *1* on a d20.


Drain is another case... the problem is again drain matters when you don't roll enough successes... if you have 12 dice and 3 drain... there is still roughly a 20% chance you do NOT roll enough successes on the bell curve. That's not a unlikely result. And given the cumulative nature of drain damage on dice pools and limiting mages is not something that should be hand waved away. When I'm allowed to 4:1 drain I'm far more aggressive in my spell use than I otherwise would be because I know exactly how far i can push things without risk.


As for the guard power... I sincerely hope it gets hit with the nerf power in SR5... immunity to glitches is a bit too good. Especially for extended tests and rush jobs. Even if guard instead becomes something more akin to the opposite of gremlins... for every few points of force of the spirit increase the number of dice you need to roll to get a glitch. It's still there and rush jobs stay dangerous because of the 1s and 2's.

Also worth pointing out, buying hits is always down to GM discretion.

And something that does not fly at our table most of the time. I only calculated with Bought Hits becasue Draco18s was bringing it up.

I'm willing to use it for noncritical stuff that happens off-camera. Or at something like 8:1 or 10:1, for "do we really need to drop dice for something so trivial compared to my level of skill?"

And for theorycraft debates online, of course. Because if you have enough DP to buy sufficient hits to succeed, then dropping the dice is usually also going to result in success.

This Sunday it's my turn to GM, and everybody but the combat hacker's player has other commitments. This discussion just gave me an idea for what I can do with my Free Spirit PC's Guard power and a truckload of extra money it doesn't know how to use. Thanks!

pbangarth... yeah its known as your hacker secludes himself for a month and writes from scratch his own rating 12 stealth program... with optomize 6 and ergonomic. Using rush job, and guard to avoid any chance of a glitch. Rush job + spend edge to half the test time interval == quarter the test interval so a month becomes a week.... then a monstrous dice pool for your programming suite and AR programming environment fees.

I would seriously kick any player's ass who wants to use the guard power on any matrix-related activities.
Those two worlds do not mix.
If there are (were?) sprites that can do a similar thing though ... go for it.

So when your rigger is getting assailed with accident power attacks... guard power can't be used to defend.

The point is that cybercombat has zero tactical options. Since there's no "friends in melee" equivalent, having buddies in cybercombat doesn't help. You can't take cover behind another icon, you can't cause a diversion to run away... in short, all you can do is stand there and say "I try to hit him again *yawn*."

Having friends who don't have good dice pools (at least 9-10, preferably more) also isn't much help, and sometimes turns into an active liability. The best you can hope for is Teamwork Tests, but since a botch or critical botch can ruin the whole thing, small dice pools are as much harm as help. And given that many Matrix tests are Extended Tests, that just magnifies the chances of botching. You're often better off with an Agent... except Agent armies just makes matrix actions even more tedious, as everything bogs to a standstill while you roll for each and every Agent.

Having the decker open the door is also ludicrous. By the time you've spent enough game play getting the primary decker in, you've already had the pizza problem. Having the decker play the IT guy is also silly, since cracking the copy protection means you have to patch each copy individually. That takes forever.