If he's going to fuck with me while I'm in VR it most certainly is. I've revised, now BH please edit. And no, I the person misread it. Thought the get out part also applied to the van.

I'm just going to pull things over right here.

The team is just too dysfunctional, and I've ceased to have any fun watching you bicker with one another - in character or not. So I'll say this now: You can babble on in IC or OOC as long as you feel the need, but I won't be advancing the plot any myself for a couple of days IRL. If, at that time, I feel like I can salvage something, great. If not, it was fun while it lasted, and maybe we can pick something else up with a little better character design to allow for some real team play.

Dude, you asked me to edit, and then responded to my old post before I could. You need to calm down, and give other people a chance to post.

Also, this.

I don't blame you, JP.

I just wanted his plan. He didn't give me one.....

Oh, well, that makes it alright then. /sarcasm

Well at this point, Riots done talking. And probably not going to work with Wolf again in the future. So we can figure that out after the runs over.

The run? I think the game's over.

No he said Riot and Wolf need to figure out how to get along, which based on the events of the past mission and a half, probably isn't going to happen. But Riot's relinquished any leadership. So Wolf can lead on.

And I can roll up a new character after the run.

Alright. Let's leave the IC thread where it is and give JP some time to think about it.

I don't want to speak for JP, but I have to say that if left in the state it is in, currently, *I* wouldn't assume that the game is salvageable if I came back and reread it a few days from now.

What would you want to see changed?

Agreed. What I really meant was lets stay out of IC until things are worked out.

Well it seems that the fact that we're a collection of random ass people has put us at odds with one another. In most of my games, I have a group template were all the PCs are interrelated somehow. Tends to avoid these personality rubs.

As far as character personalities go...Riot's had enough of trying to corral everyone. He's effectively stepping down as the leader. Wolf will have to do some pretty cool shit to prove himself...because in as far as Riot's concerned, he's been more of a hinderance than a help thus far. So the strongwilled, take charge attitude is gone...and that should reduce further friction.

If it were me running the game, I would want to see that my players came to a resolution on their own - and were respectful OOC - and that the resolution was a long term solution, and not just "well, let's get through this one run together, and see where things stand." I say that, because, as a GM, I wouldn't want the underlying issues to just come up again on the next run, and end up overseeing another argument about the very same thing a few weeks later.

I am cool with putting the IC on ice for a while, while we talk about it OOC, but my hopes of us coming up with a solid resolution to all of this are not high.

As it stands, JP had only planned to run one team through these missions, but he went out of his way to run a second team because he got a lot more interest than he expected. Even if they are modules, he's had to put a lot of time and energy into the game, and if he's not having fun with the second team, it makes sense for him to let it go and focus on the work he signed up for, not the team that was basically a favor to us in the first place.

If your plan for reducing attitude is prefaced by the fact that your character thinks another character is a liability, and needs to prove himself, then nothing is resolved. Someone will make a call, and you'll disagree with it, in character, just like some of us disagreed with some of Riot's calls, in character, previously.

I guess I should have prefaced, this is how Riot is currently viewing the situation.

It might be beneficial to have everyone post up in the OOC what their IC feelings are of each character...that way we can isolate the issues and deal with them.

Now that I think of it, its really just the two alpha males syndrome...

Edit - Also, I'm cool with any revision to Riot. In RL, I like playing with you guys, I think the banter is fun. But its getting over the top for sure now.

Kreskin was the only one who saw Riot as the leader anyway, so it doesn't even change much.

and that is why we failed....

Edit - or well to be specific, no one recognized any leader, and therefore we failed. If another PC would have stepped and proved a solid leader, then Riot would have followed.

Just quoted the rest of it, as, while I agree with the rest of it, that sentence is what we need to focus on if we are going to salvage it. Which I'd like to.

Most of the problems seem to be IC personality conflicts. I do think Klink needs to have a little more patience, as I've mentioned previously, but other than that..

Wolf and Riot clearly don't get along, although I'm not sure what Wolf has done for Riot to think he's a liability. Wolf on the other hand, considers Kim a liability but hasn't, I believe, let that get in the way of the mission and had an opportunity come up for her to prove otherwise, would have happily revised his opinion. Kim considers both the orks stupid, Kreskin seems to get on with everyone and Doc possibly hates everyone.

Point 1 = I agree

Point 2 = I can work on the patience, I just have a really easy job

Point 3 = Thats a pretty good summation. I don't think Wolf is a liability, I think Angel is too. Riot's opinion of Wolf is that for being the team's "muscle" he's always 180 degrees the opposite direction of Riot, he doesn't seem to understand Riots a crass, go ganger who is going to curse and swear, and since he's "muscle" he's a dime a dozen and there's plenty of other street sam's out there that would be more enjoyable to work with. The problem is, without any fights, I haven't seen Wolf do anything useful. He's only tried to counter anything Riot's said or done. I think we need a scene were Angel does somethign really fucking cool to prove her worth. And Wolf needs to beat someone's ass (which is why I wanted to raid the Black Cats) to give some people a chance to shine. As of right now, I can only think of one cool thing any of us has done, and that was Riot backing the truck into the Yaks and Triads and making an escape.

Kreskin just saw that the team needed a leader (every team does, since anarchy and democracy doesn't work mid-run), and desperately didn't want that to be him (he didn't want the responsibility or the burden). So when Riot took some initiative (rolling leadership checks early on), he recognized that Riot had the makings of a leader, and tried to suggest as much, figuring he could just sort of advise him from the side (a pretty good situation, for him, and out of the lime-light). Worked well enough, but like he said in character a few times when Riot ignored his suggestions, it only works as long as Kresken can trust the leader to make the right calls - and near the end, Riot's judgment was in question a few times.

That basically sums up why I am not confident that there will be an elegant solution.

Every team needs a leader, because otherwise there will never be a cohesive plan, and people will be getting in one another's way - or doing things that the other people wish they wouldn't (and when you work together, your reputations are tied). You can't really function as a democracy, either, because nobody will ever agree, and the team will spend 80% of its time arguing about the various options. They need to be able to trust that leader to make good calls. They don't have to agree with every single call that guy makes, but when he makes a decision, they need to get in line and see it through, not call him crazy, and threaten to go home with their expense money, or pushing another plan. Having a leader that nobody listens to is basically the same as not having any leader at all.

Our problem is, there isn't anyone in our team that everyone else trusts to make the right calls - which isn't surprising, since we all met OOC and IC at the start of the previous run. I'd be surprised if there was anyone that anyone trusted to do that, and I'm pretty sure all of the PCs are the sorts of people who will maintain that they know best, even if they don't, sometimes.

That leads to situations like the one we have here, where we don't agree on what to do next, and probably never will. We can't force anyone to follow a plan they don't agree with, but the team is never going to all agree on a single plan (at least not without weeks of debate, which isn't fun). We don't have anyone with the authority to solve the impasse, and even if we did, the team would probably resent being overruled, rather than willing to make the best of the alternative plan.

So, the gist of it is that Riot thinks he is the only one who has done anything awesome, and that everyone else is replaceable, or a freeloader?



That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. If Riot doesn't respect his team, they're not going to follow him, and he isn't going to follow any of them.

I'm talking OOC, not IC. We've been efficient and effective....perhaps a slightly boring.

IC-wise: Kreskin got a grenade launcher - that was pretty cool....but thats about it...can you think of anything?

There are, as I see it, 2 possible leaders from the current characters, Kreskin and Wolf.

Kreskin would perhaps be the only person acceptable to everyone, with the exception of Kreskin.

As far as Wolf goes, I think Kreskin would accept him, Riot would be ambivalent and Kim would be going from one stupid ork to another. Doc I don't believe would be too bothered as long as she got paid and didn't get stupidly injured.

Kreskin would probably be the most effective leader, since he's the most equipped to handle the two of us. Honestly, I was hoping he would have stepped us as it became apparent that no one but him was going to follow him since...you know...all his ideas are a little crazy and straight forward (thrillseeker flaw).

Not everything needs to be cool you know. Nice and quiet is how we link things

Anyway... might have a workable solution, assuming Kreskin would support Wolf.

Riot backs off as Klink said he would for the rest of the mission. We (hopefully) engineer a successful outcome starting with the meet at the park. After said successful completion, Riot realises that combat biker captain /= 'runner team leader and smoothes things over IC.

Yup, as we discussed via PM. I think it provides a realistic depiction of how it would go down. I would also like to state, Zyrene and I both agreed that neither of us were in RL mad or whatever at one another. The two characters are a bit on the alpha male side, which has been causing the tension.

I'm going to bring Riot's personality down a notch and, now that we've resolved things, slow down the posting a notch as well.

Kreskin would step up if needed, but he wouldn't complain if Wolf wanted to give it a go, either. He doesn't really care who is "in charge" as long as things get done, and get done to his satisfaction (which lately involves building a solid rep for the team). It sounds like you guys worked something out where Wolf will take lead. I can roll with that, but I think if we're not careful, we could see the same sort of thing happen if people don't cut the leader some slack.

That's true, but I think Wolf would be a little more open to having his ideas criticised than Riot has been.

Which was what bogged things down while I was leading, but that's neither here nor there. All I ask is great than one sentence posts and a well thought out plan. Riot would have been happy if someone would have provided a comprehensive plan. Oh yeah, and the whole ragging on the mint cigarette thing was not necessary and it actually worked out. So if someone has an idea, let it play out as opposed to taking the exact opposite side as an immediate response.

But honestly, I like the idea of Kreskin taking reluctant control and trying to manage both Riot and Wolf who are trying to have him implement their ideas. Sounds more fun...and less prone to Riot saying I told you so as soon as Wolf fails the first time...

I'm cool with the stepping down combat biker captain does not equal leader of running team part.

Well when every idea is critized, it does get annoying. And, as my ICs indicated...I wanted a plan from someone...just never got one...

Well, it seems obvious that it’s my fault and I don’t mean Kim’s. I crossed the line in the OOC thread and I knew it when I made the post. There’s just no excuse and I’m sorry. I will understand if you want to continue without me.

In case someone cares about my reasons, I’d like to start with that I’ve never played with people who let their characters do stuff without being able to explain why with IC arguments before. I’ve also never played in a team with a leader before; democracy has always worked fine for me. My friends and I always had just 2 rules while playing. Always leave another player at least 2 options you can live with and if someone does something just deal with it.

In our game, IC arguments were ignored and there was no vote on what to do. Instead we just went along with Riot’s plan with the OOC argument that there had to be more ways to finish the mission. It’s just frustrating to see that people find it more important to get the job done, so their characters get more money and karma, than to role-play and maybe fail.

I want to make clear that when I say that my character doesn’t know what to do anymore and I hope someone else still has a plan, it doesn’t mean I want to quit. Likewise, when I say that if my character would go home with the expense money (if getting the offer), it really doesn’t help to actually offer it. Should you feel the urge to make your character offer it anyway, you better have a plan to get my character back again. At least that’s how I used to play it with my friends.

There’s just one other thing I find annoying and that is that a scene gets advanced, without it being obvious that everyone is done posting what they wanted.

Let's not open that up again, I meant the comment as a difference in character personalities, not a criticism. For what it's worth, you'd have gotten a plan from Wolf once the van has stopped, still will if we resume.



Not sure which post you mean but I haven't seen a reason you should leave.

We all ragged on one anothers ideas. I didn't think your video camera thin had any merit. You didn't think the mint cigs/mob ties had any merit. It happens. We've all learned to let other roll with their ideas a bit more (as long as its not ridiculous - like shooting a mobster in their own hangout).



I know you're roleplaying the hell of out Angel. I'm roleplaying Riot to a T, exactly like I envisioned him. Unfortunately it might a tad over the top with the in-your-face and aggressive methodologies. I'm definitely not trying to go about things in the most effcicent manner, but its well thought out enough to make it effective.



That's my fault, and as mentioned, I'll low the pace down. In my defense, you do get karma for "Pushing the Storyline Forward". We're RPing in IC so much, that we do bog down in the details a lot. And in case you haven't noticed, JP has given us liberty to use creative licenses within reason. We're telling the story as much as he is. Yet I find that only BH and I are doing that. One word and one sentence posts are impossible to work with. If anything, if I never see one of those again, I would be much more content to slow the pace down.

My only concern, and its been that way since we started is that why is everyone against Riot's leadership? We've had no problems in the successful completion of our tasks, I've used discretion, probably gained us two contacts in the form of Peachs and Mark Longfeather with my RP and then fixing up Mark's van before returning it. Obviously my plans and leadership style isn't ideal, but its not like I'm blundering or making bad judgements. I'm just wondering. I think that feedback might be useful ask Riot attempts to reflect on the situation.

Twould appear that we've had it out...

Is everyone ready to pick things back up again?

Aye

Not quite, I want to address some of Klink points first




It's a difference of playstyle as much as anything. Short posts have their place as much as long storyline moving ones. It doesn't, IMO, need a "pushing the storyline foward" post either, I'd say that Wolf just calling Stalker to stop the argument and Wolf getting the meet arranged pushed the storyline foward.

Let me also address this in the context of recent events. Would you have been happy if I'd posted Wolf telling Riot to stop, Riot compliing, then Wolf laying out his plan?



If the missions had been reversed, I think we'd have hit problems sooner. The fact that the first mission did go so smoothly makes the this one going off the rails that much harder to take.

That said, the first one was perfect for Riot as getting through it almost entirely on driving skill was possible. The thrillseeker approach worked there, no question. As to the second, most of the characters think, ICly, the way Riot handled the mafia thing was a blunder. OOC there may be no fallout from it, but Riot's opening gambit nearly got him and Kreskin killed.

I would disagree. OOC'ly you think that my opening gambit should have gotten us killed. But in IC, and you weren't there, the guy stood up and told us to piss off. Hardly killed. Hardly anything. You have agree, my plans are well thoughtout, just in an unorthodox way. They work, they get favorable results, and to that point, there's no reason there would be a mutiny in IC. Causes for mutiny would be much more greavious, but thats neither here nor there. I don't know if JP threw me a bone with the cigarettes or if it was part of the mission. In either case, it worked, which would only improve my standing, not diminish it (from an IC perspective). I'm pretty sure if I was about to do something extremely stupid, JP would say, "Are you really sure you want to do that?"

Just my 2

Guys, as you've probably noticed, I haven't even logged into the forums in a few days. Only reason I checked today was I noticed a PM. And no, it's not because of the bickering (though that is definitely something detracting). Simple fact is, with all I have going on around here on a daily basis (and JP can tell you that yes, it's a lot), I haven't even wanted to come play here in the odd bit of free time I do find. The most complicated thing I've played in the last few days has been Bejeweled in between whatever else I'm working on or doing. But yeah, not sure if this is truly all resolved or not yet, so I'm just gonna sit on the sidelines another day or two and see what happens before I post anything else.

There was no camera thing, it was about clues left on the ranch. It’s not like we knew there wasn’t any security. You had said all you wanted and decided to advance the storyline, without it being clear everyone was done.


I would have been fine with either a satisfactory IC reason, or a vote.


Here’s where we just differ as players, I couldn’t care less about karma and I think the details give flavor to the game.


I agree that there should be a plan about how to keep things going in your posts, but that doesn’t mean you should just decide things for other players. For instance, I’m fine with Wolf asking Kreskin to go to the bathroom, but I’m not with him just ordering a beer and waiting for JP to be nice.
Blackhat and you are indeed pushing the storyline forward, but there’s a big difference in how you do it. You just advance the game when you feel like it, BH waits for other players to say they are ready. For instance, you just advance to the parking lot on the ranch, where BH would have when everyone had left the room. If Riot is impatient, you could have said he’s walking towards the parking lot and waits for the rest to follow. When I’m the last one to leave, I’d be more than happy to bring us to the Hardpan. You just make it sounds like the rest of us are holding things up, when we’re just not deciding what other characters are doing.


We rolled for it and you lost. Somehow we end up doing what you want anyway. You can think everything went great, but Kim could have done the mission on her own. She just isn’t impressed.
I just don’t think leadership works, if it means we’re going to do whatever one player decides. It will always lead to problems, especially when the rest of the players want to do something else. If all players can discuss it OOC and a vote will decide what the leader will do, we could RP we have a leader though.

LOL...no offense, but our leadership roll-off in mission one isn't true leadership. That was a quick 'grab your attention' maneuver. Angel might not have been impressed, but the others were to an extent. Then, I make some executive decision, which Wolf backed me on, and everything worked out. No offense, but honestly, it is simply impossible to IC RP every single decision every single time. When there's a decision, especially a minor one (use the Coyotes or cross the border normally), I don't want to spend 3 days RPing it. Not going to happen. Yet, that would have happened if Wolf hadn't have just called. And honestly, I was a post away from doing it myself.

As for the scene advancement and pace, already discussed, and that's already being worked on. But again, I caution you, if we RP every little freaking thing, we're going to drive JP mad, and we will all lose interest. It's a simple fact of PbPs, not sure if you are aware, or how experienced you are with them.

And the cig thing, are you kidding me! Seriously? IC or vote? What does that even mean? In IC, I got some info from a fellow ganger. As the 'team leader' I'm trying to do everything I can so we're successful. A vote? That's simply the dumbest things I've every heard. No offense. 90% of the fun in RPs is reacting to the evolving situation.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this is spiraling out of control, but I'm effectively being told how to RP (which is wierd, since Riot's probably the best RPed character next to Angel) and how to play. So yeah, I guess that's telling me something.

I felt like this was a little vague. What would be nice, just once in a while, is to drop into 3rd person narrative to accomplish non-important conversion.

Example, you took probably 10 posts to find out about the security systems.

In one post, you could have handled it. Something like: Angel talks to Hafiz, questioning him about the security measures in place at the ranch.

There's a time for IC speak and there's a time not to....

I'm just saying, it might help...

Edit - If you work on that, I'll work on my patience and less decisive posting.

After some deliberation and discussions, primarily with Z...I think we should try and salvage the game. I've deleted out the posts past 612

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1035469

Despite the response from Wolf, I'll play it cool, waiting for Kreskin to "explain" his plan of theirs. I think we can resume from here, under less heated and less hostile intentions.

Additionally, now that we've all had to chance to share feelings and gain insights on our expectations from the game and our drastically different playstyles, I think we'll be able to function much more effectively and have a lot more fun, now that we've established this baseline.

Obliged. I don't mind if we discuss the plan, further, or don't go with Kreskin's plan at all... but we discuss it without yelling at one another, or pointing anything deadly at anyone.

Heh. I was waiting for someone to comment here before I edited in Wolf's version of the plan. I guess I'll just comment on Kreskin's essay instead.

I guess we might need to ask a friendly mod to clean up the thread a little for us.

Meh, it'll get buried quickly enough if the JP decides to give us a second shot.

I told JP we all kissed and made up. He just wanted us to post up here some civil stuff before getting back at it. Thanks guys. I'm over whatever what was in my ass.

Alright, I refuse to go back and read this little sleepover (laughter! tears! hugs!), and I'm afraid to see the state of the IC thread, but we'll press on from wherever you guys leave it off.

I'm going to give you the rest of the evening to do what needs doing in there, as I have a network app that didn't respond nicely to a database move this afternoon, and if I don't get it fixed by dawn, I've got 20 school librarians with pitchforks and torches coming for me.


The rollback went better than I had expected.

Can I get a brief summary of what's been decided at this point? Or at least, where you're heading right this instant, so I can take the action further along?

No wonder you want that new job....hear back about from that interview yet?