Yeah, probably just hang on for dear life then. Looks like Sleep's on, good luck shooting some poor biker with your stick n shocks.

@BlackHat - you could shoot them to reduce their dodge dice, fully expecting not to hit.

Nah, I don't wanna be the first one to shoot. Let's say Kreskin uses round one to sort of duck low in his seat and try to avoid direct notice (using infiltration to hide):


If successful, and we start exchanging shots, maybe they won't target Kreskin first. After all, he has the package, and needs to keep it safe.

Stick-n-shocks, go look back. It's loaded with slugs, regular ammo. I shoot one of them and he's gonna lose something.

At this point, we're at the end of intiative pass 2, with sleep and zyrene both holding actions. So both of you can complete you actions for the first turn...aka shoot them in the face. Only reason I recommended SnS, if the biker is hit, regardless of the amount of damage:

A successful Electricity damage attack can stun and incapacitate the target as well. The
struck target must make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. Apply half the character’s Impact
armor (round down) and any other dice pool modifiers as noted above to this test. If the
target fails, he immediately falls and is incapacitated for a number of Combat Turns equal
to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test. Even if the target succeeds, he suffers a –2 dice
pool modifier to all action tests due to disorientation from the shock for the same period.
Incapacitated characters are prone and unable to take any actions.

Electronic equipment, vehicles, and drones can also be affected by Electricity damage.
They never suffer Stun damage, but they do roll Body + Armor (drones and vehicles) or
Armor x 2 (other objects) to resist secondary effects. If they achieve equal or more hits than
the attack, they are unaffected. Otherwise, they cease to function for a number of Combat
Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test (and may need to reboot after that).

Meaning, SnS has the best chance of fucking them up. They might go incapacitated or the bike my reboot. Both of which is better than just taking damage because they'll spin out and crash, dealing more damage overall.

What now?

Well, the bike will only reboot if you shoot the bike instead of the rider.

Zyrene needs to use his 2 IPs and Sleep needs to use her 1 IP.

After that, for the start of turn two, I'm dropping into VR and we will do it all over again. With 3 IPs, I'll be attempting two rams and then with the third IP I'll be maintaining my drive. You guys can continue to attack.

What speed are we going? I've been in more than one game where ramming with a van ended up being suicide.

The ramming vehicle has to resist half of the damage it deals (which would be 16 if we're going faster than 44 mph, more with lots of hits). That is assuming my conversion is right. A speed fo 60 meters per combat turn would be 20 meters per second, which google says is 44 mph. Either way, if we're trying to outrun them, I assume we're going fast.
We can expect the van to soak roughly 8 of that (on average) - enough to apply -2 to van-tests for the rest of the run.

The last sentence of the section on vehicle damage says that in the case of ramming, vehicles and passengers resist the same amount.
I've never been clear if that was meant to be only in the vehicle BEING rammed, or if it applies to both... but if we all have to resist 16 physical damage, we're probably all going to die unless we slow the van down to a crawl before love-tapping the bikes.

At that point, we might as well just pull over. Then they can't force us to crash, and they still have to shoot past the van's armor/cover to hit us.

Wolf's init is 11, not 8.

You can assume the first IP was spent comforting Kim, moving and readying crossbow

We're going over 60, meaning I'm dealing 32 damage a ram. We add the vehicles' armor ( 8 ) to our own body + impact armor. However, the ramming party only suffers half of the damage, so 16 dice.

Don't forget that if you're wearing your standard safety harnesses, etc.. you suffer 0.

If you're not sitting in your chairs though..

wow the ramming rules are stupid.

resisting 16 damage with body and 1/2 impact? I'd be dead on the very first ram.

I thought safety things were modifications in arsenal that add their rating (or 3, or something negligible) to resist. I didn't see any rule that reduced damage to 0.

Regardless, nothign in the back to stablize yourselves tho.

Right. 16 damage is what I expected. Kreskin doesn't have a lot of impact armor (my fault, I know), but you'd need about 48 dice to resist 16 damage reliably.

Unless there is some rule about safety belts reducing damage to 0, I would expect we'd all get some massive whiplash.

AFAIK there's no seating in the back anyway.

It's also half personal impact armor.

Like I said, I've been in two games (RL games) where the team tried ramming another vehicle with a van, and TPKd.

They did end in some hilarious descriptions about how some of us flew through the front windshield onto the road, while others of us were crushed under some of the other heavy equipment in the back, etc. All very humerous and possibly somewhat realistic... but I'd hate to see our mission end because ramming a guy on a bike is just as rough as ramming into a brick wall.

No, its 16 dice, so average of 4 DV. Then you get 8 + Bod + 1/2 Impact to resist.

Oh....oh....I just reread that. Its straight DV.....yeah, reconning that down to 45 miles an hour....not 90.

Wolf would live through it. He wouldn't exactly be in fighting shape afterwards.

Maybe I should shoot Riot instead?

I'm going to just do some cut-offs and pull over. Holy shit. The ramming rules are pretty intense.

You don't roll damage dice in SR4, do you (wow, this shows how long it has been since I had a RL game)? The damage value of the attack is 16, so you resist 16

45 mph is still a speed > 60. You wanna be <= 44 mph

Difference between the flaw thrillseeker and will to die. Now that I reread that the DV is body x 2, not that that is the dice pool. That's pretty stupid actually.

Yes, 40 mph.

Lol, well, if you shoot the pilot, we crash, and we resist the same damage.

Yeah, well Z and Sleep need to shoot some bikers. We'll work from there.

It really should be delta.. not static.

So when you ram someone, you should take your speed, minus their speed, to determine how much damage you do.
AND The damage I have to resist, should be maxed by the body of what I'm hitting. Not by my van.

You ran a human in a van, and you have to soak 16dv? really?

Stupidly awesome if you're not actually IN the vehicle. Imagine ramming someone with a remote-controlled van for a DV of 32, with no risk to yourself!
Expensive way to kill a car full of bad guys, but not many characters will be walking away from that one.

It's a pilot check threshold 1 to stop on a dime.

Yes, I've thought for a while that the damage you take should be based on the body fo the thing you're hitting or the thing hitting you. So if you ram a motercycle into an armored van, you're going to be in a lot of pain, and the guys inside will hear a soft knock on the wall. If that van hits you, you're a smear on the road, and the guys inside feel a small bump in the road. It woul probably make vehicles too damned awesome, but it would remove the problem where it doesn't matter if you're ramming a nice soft pedestrian or a tank... you soak the same damage, and its probably enough to kill you.

Yeah, those rules are not realistic at all. I've been in an accident before, I'm alive with no injuries....just some whiplash. The rules in this game are like auto death.

A 16/8 DV ram is survivable, a 32/16 one isn't.

Yeah, although I'd still prefer to avoid an 8DV ram, if we can. Kreskin would be rolling 11 dice to resist, meaning probably 6 damage and a -2 to every test for the rest of the run (cause fuck if he's going to let Doc near him with a scalpel).

I'd rather get shot with a pistol for a nice soft 4-6 DV.

Doc has 2 IP's, not one. Wired Reflexes. And I just got back from work, will post the IC after I work through this mess of OOC.

Ok, well ramming is out of the question. Z, just take one of those fuckers out. See if Sleep can take one out too, or at least help out. Next turn, I'll perform 2 cut-offs and then just stop the van. We can get out and fuck them up.

We just discuss that ramming is really bad. That's what about 20 of the posts are about. I misread how ramming damage works.

Wolf has 19 dice to resist a ram.

I'd ask J.Packer to houserule something that isn't this retarded.

But not sure how JP feels about houserules.

Something like I said earlier:

Compare Speeds:
Diff 1-20 | Body*/2
Diff 21-60 | Body*
Diff 61-200 | Body* X 2
Diff 200+ | Body* x 3

* use the Body rating of the opposite vehicle.
ie: Van hits Motorcycle
Van takes Motorcycle Body Damage
Motorcycle takes Van Body Damage

21 dice, so an average of 7. Wow, he'd be in pretty good shape, actually.

okay, we all get out except for Wolf, who then drives the van into the bad guys.

hell, let's get out and RC the van around the battlefield for a while.

Im down with that.

It's 19, I halved the wrong armor. Still a decent amount against 8DV

Comparing speeds should also include direction. Two guys going 70 on the highway are going the same speed, but if they're both driving right at one another that's a lot worse than if they're going in the same direction (in which case they barely bump fenders), and being T-boned is somewhere in the middle, I guess.

Anyway, when J.P. gets to this, I'm sure he'll mention if he wants ot houserule it to keep the encounter a car-chase instead of us pulling over. Thus far, he's seemed to want to try out the RAW and see how it goes, but in this case, the RAW might end the game rather quickly.

Doc would fix you up. She'd also charge you about 400 nuyen per damage she fixed you up (200 for the others)..... and shoot you if you didn't pay.

It's a pretty reasonable house-rule. Makes a 1000% more sense at least.

Well, lets just shoot the bad guys, leave it in JPs hands to start turn 2, and we can work from there.

Precisely why Kreskin wouldn't let her near him, unless he took enough damage to get knocked out, I guess... then he'd just be in the hole for the run.

Actually, that gives me an idea...

and yeah, include direction.

you would add the speeds together if you're going at each other.

if 1 is T-boning the other, you set the person being hit as going 0

Klink, depending on how many driving dice you have, you might be better off doing a cut off attempt.

Opposed test, number of successes counts as a negative towards their crash test.

Man, I go away for a while to actually, you know, work, and you guys get all crazy with the houserules on me.

I'll do some digging. I've seen some ostensibly not insane vehicle house rules posted here that I want to consider using.

That, or I'll dig up Car Wars and we can punt.