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Luckace
Ok.
Yes, he kept close to the van. If moving furhter ahead was required to spot it, he didn't see it.
But he did astrally perceive, that was the roll. Assensing: 7d6t5 5
So I take it he doesn't count as surprised.
Gilga
Anna with init 20 :
Initiative: 14+2d6 20

Her spirit with 24. (but is only summoned at the first combat turn).
Initiative: 10+3d6 24
Jack_Spade
@Luckace

That is correct. Don't forget to roll for your spirit who already told you it would be happy to take care of the other spirit biggrin.gif

@gilga

Your summoned spirit counts as late to the fight and therefore also loses 10 Ini.
Edit: Also don't forget that giving it a command will take another simple action - unless you'd prefer to cast reckless with one simple action instead of a complex and add 3 drain to your total.
Gilga
1. if it makes a difference, she'll do reckless as she likes bnc. 9 stun though.
1a. Will the spirit still be late if I summon it recklessly?
1b. If I give it a command on the second initiative pass - does it still act in the second initiative pass?

I considered that, but my mechanic is too sketchy to know if it makes a difference.
Jack_Spade
With reckless you can give it a command in the same instance that you summon it.
That means it will be still late to the fight but can act directly on Ini 14 which is before the other spirit can take its first manifested action at 13
Luckace
@Jack_Spade: oh, thanks!
Initiative (spirit of air): 2d6+16 24
Before the evil demon
Thanee
QUOTE
Anyone who isn't astrally perceiving starts the round surprised with -10 to ini


Even if we are specifically watching out for trouble near the van? smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
@Luckace: Bound spirits usually reside somewhere in the metaplanes. You can call one of them to your side with a simple action and give commands as a simple action, thus allowing you to have it do something within one action phase. When it appears, however, combat will already have started, hence the "late to the combat" penalty to the initiative score.

Of course, you can prepare ahead of time and call the bound spirit to your side, then, if a combat starts, it will already be there, waiting for your command.

Bye
Thanee
Gilga
I assume that stun damage from the initial combat is fully healed after a 3.5 hours drive. Is that so?

If so, she'll do reckless...
Astral combat: 10d6t5 3 (I'll edge it hoping for a hit).
Astral combat (edge): 7d6t5 2

Do friends in melee apply to astral?
Jack_Spade
Yes, you had three tries to heal stun damage.

@Volker

Without being able to see your opponent you can only guess where he will appear - especially with its natural invisibility at work.
Your flying drone is outside the car, and even with opened doors the spirit get's the car's armor added to its defense.
Now, your anthrodrone can take you outside, but it will also have to act on its own initiative as long as you aren't jumped in - also this is a complex command (open door, pick up bnc, shield her with his body against an attacker that can only be seen on Ultrasound sensors and that doesn't correspond with anything in its databanks + there are two elementals also appearing inside, confusing the situation even more), so it has to roll 2x it's pilot rating and reach a threshold of 2
Picking bnc up alone will take a complex action - unless you want to be just grabbed by a foot and dragged outside.

But this might all be moot by the time the spirit dogpile is resolved
Gilga
Well, my elemental would stick to astral combat for action economy. Wraith's may be close enough to just fly there in meatspace. (need to verify).
PS: Did you factor the 1 damage from stunbolt he took earlier?
Gilga
Wow... Nova is quite deadly with the gun!
Luckace
QUOTE (Thanee @ Aug 23 2018, 10:04 PM) *
@Luckace: Bound spirits usually reside somewhere in the metaplanes. You can call one of them to your side with a simple action and give commands as a simple action, thus allowing you to have it do something within one action phase. When it appears, however, combat will already have started, hence the "late to the combat" penalty to the initiative score.


Thanks!


QUOTE (Jack_Spade @ Aug 24 2018, 05:53 AM) *
Yes, you had three tries to heal stun damage.


Oh, nice!

Btw, I am a little confused as to why neither Wraith (init5) nor my bound spirit (init11) got to act before Nova (init4, I thought). Am I missing something?
Don't want to be nit-picking, and I'll gladly let Nova have the kill, but i'd just like to know whether I'm getting something wrong and whether Wraith's planned action (two reckless lightning bolts at the spirit, unless the engulfing was successful, then it's two stunbolts) is even relevant anymore.
Gilga
I think your spirit acted and missed (it had some astral combat roll?) or did we get that wrong?
Wraith should move before Nova though.

PS At least Anna's spirit never materialized, it is invisible without astral perception.
Luckace
The spirit that missed was the one Wraith had just summoned. The one that got skipped (?) is the one I had bound earlier and calles ad initiativ 15 (+9000 due to edge)
Thanee
QUOTE (Luckace @ Aug 24 2018, 09:39 AM) *
Btw, I am a little confused as to why neither Wraith (init5) nor my bound spirit (init11) got to act before Nova (init4, I thought). Am I missing something?
Don't want to be nit-picking, and I'll gladly let Nova have the kill, but i'd just like to know whether I'm getting something wrong and whether Wraith's planned action (two reckless lightning bolts at the spirit, unless the engulfing was successful, then it's two stunbolts) is even relevant anymore.


Moved my post behind yours now. smile.gif

TBH, I don't exactly know how you handle those combat posts. It seemed somewhat chaotic to begin with. spin.gif

I am used to just posting actions in any order, because otherwise there is so much waiting involved and have the GM sort the order in which they happen while posting the results in one summary post.

BTW, if you want to let the spirit manifest to attack (which it does not have to, it can attack the other spirit in astral combat), that would take its whole turn, and it would only attack during its next action phase.

Bye
Thanee
Luckace
Ok, thanks.
I'll edit eht BOUND spirit's post so that it only materializes and will add Wraith's action before Nova's.
Then the init chain should be fullfilled.
bnc (surprised) 24 escape, attack 14
Anna's spirit 24 (I assume that it's down to 14 as Anna can't command it earlier)
spirit of air 24
dark spirit 23 manifest 13
Anna 20 astral combat 10
James 19
Bound Spirit 11 manifests
Wraith 5
Nova (surprised) 4

I am fine with any way to do the combat posts, as long as Jack approves biggrin.gif
Volker
Phew, leave you guys alone for a couple of seconds and the whole combat is done. I have this strange déja vu experience ... shall we not try to do combats after the initiative score?

Why on Earth do I have no direct line of sight? I stated on several occasions that I explicitly prepared for the event of the spirit appearing inside the van. I posted that I positioned the drone accordingly. Also, the van won't go anywhere as I took over command. Two or three posts ago, I stated that I'd prepare the van to take off. I already started the engine, i.e. the autopilot can't take control of its own, as it is overridden by mine.

[EDIT: I just realized that Eliza is steering the van. She is, of course, allowed to do that.]

That's also why I don't understand how I can be surprised by the exact event I foresaw and prepared for happened (and scolded the group for ignoring). It's a bit like if you stand at a corner and wait for someone to show up, then he does, and you are surprised without a surprise roll. What I did was basically an ambush at the spirit. Maybe you missed that part in the course of the discussion but If I'd known that I have no LOS (windows? doors?) at the spirit, I wouldn't have shot - especially since I'm in control of the van.
Please don't just edit "shoot at the spirit" to "shoot at a heavily armored van" without asking. If there's indeed no possibility to shoot at the spirit inside, please let me change the action to "open doors" or something like that (and, while I absolutely don't blame you as this was kinda chaotic, I would ask you to tell me if from your point of view I'm doing something that absolutely makes no sense at all. When I said I move the drone back to be able to shoot at the spirit when it is inside the van, I obviously assumed that I would be able to shoot at the spirit when it is inside the van. Telling me that this is not the case could have prevented a lot of confusion).


The first pass is over, so for the second, it should be:
bnc 14
Anna's spirit 14
spirit of air 14
dark spirit 13
Anna 10
James 9
Bound Spirit 1

James has taken up bnc in a complex action and while now use his pass in turn 9 to dash out of the car.
bnc should now, in turn 14, be able to shoot at the spirit. Over various sensors, she should be able to roughly guess his location but as it is obviously invisible, the -6 dice pool modifier still occurs. There should be no armor from the van between the drone and the spirit anymore, should it? I'd like your okay on all of this before I do the roll (or else, you can do it for me. It's bnc's turn now. Please also note, that I'll have a simple action left.
Thanee
QUOTE (Volker @ Aug 24 2018, 02:58 PM) *
shall we not try to do combats after the initiative score?


I think we did that, more or less. biggrin.gif

For me it would certainly be helpful to know how exactly you wanna run combats (you being everyone here, but esp. the GM, of course). smile.gif

i.e. Roll initiative. Absolutely no IC posts unless it is your turn in the iniative order. Wait for GM to post combat beginning with initiative order. Then wait for the first combatant to act. Then the second. Then the third. And so on. -- I feel, this will take longer, usually, since all the waiting involved (esp. with different time zones), but people usually post fast enough here, so it might work, and it is closest to the way the rules work. The biggest "problem" is, that the GM is needed after every player post to post results (unless they are not necessary), so more stress for him.

Alternative would be to just have everyone post their action for the current pass (it is not happening, yet, just a declaration, basically), and the GM makes one summary post for each pass. It is faster, but also a little less accurate, especially, when the result of one action might affect yours.

Also, wouldn't posts that include nothing but spoiler tags and an initiative roll be better-suited here than in the IC thread?

Bye
Thanee
Volker
To be honest, I'd prefer people at least roughly posting in order. I once missed an antire (and very important) fight because people just kept posting on when I had no chance to for a day or so, which I found rather frustrating. Similarly, things like this can happen where there was a misunderstanding between the GM and me which affects all actions afterwards. We are way beyond the "1 post a day" we agreed upon and I'm starting to feel a bit stressed. I'm somewhere in Nepal where I can't access the internet whenever I want and each time I check, many things happened where I'd have liked a chance to react to. So, if (roughly) waiting for the one whose turn it is would slow down things a bit, I'd very much welcome it. I would enjoy if I wouldn't have to choose between enjoying my vacation and following this game.
I can't keep up with this pace.
SquirrelDude
QUOTE (Volker @ Aug 24 2018, 08:19 AM) *
To be honest, I'd prefer people at least roughly posting in order. I once missed an antire (and very important) fight because people just kept posting on when I had no chance to for a day or so, which I found rather frustrating. Similarly, things like this can happen where there was a misunderstanding between the GM and me which affects all actions afterwards. We are way beyond the "1 post a day" we agreed upon and I'm starting to feel a bit stressed. I'm somewhere in Nepal where I can't access the internet whenever I want and each time I check, many things happened where I'd have liked a chance to react to. So, if (roughly) waiting for the one whose turn it is would slow down things a bit, I'd very much welcome it. I would enjoy if I wouldn't have to choose between enjoying my vacation and following this game.
I can't keep up with this pace.
Something on the same topic from me.

Please note your goddamn initiatives once you start posting during combat because they're going to change every time you take a reaction.
Thanee
I'm perfectly fine with that. Mostly want for everyone to be on the same page, which surely helps. smile.gif

Enjoy your vacation! smile.gif

I am also going on vacation tomorrow for two weeks, but internet won't be much of an issue, at least in the morning and evening hours.

Bye
Thanee
Gilga
Well, I think that the combat is over one way or the other. Three spirits, a sniper rifle, and lighting bolts.

I am sorry to be the one with the rulebook, but even with reckless spellcasting, you cannot make two attacks. You can make multiple attacks only by splitting the dice pool.
Luckace
Oh, you're right of course, thanks! Will edit the post

I'll have a lot more spare time in five days or so, I'll then take some time to revise all the relevant rules again, I feel like I'm lacking a certain expertise.
Jack_Spade
A quick heads up: Starting on Monday till Sunday I'll be on holiday in Ireland, so expect me to post whenever I have some WiFi which isn't necessarily evey day.

Also yes, the spirit - a corpselight by the way - is done for, one way or the other.
Volker
“Shooting at your own position was very dangerous. Not to mention you dented my baby.“

Again, bnc does NOT shoot at a heavily armored vehicle. Please don't just ignore what I write. The character is mine to play and while it's okay of you day this or that is impossible, you can't just change my actions to ones I don't do.

EDIT: Sorry, I made that sound harsher than necessary. Maybe I'm touchy in this regard but I really don't like OoC-IC interferences and somebody else (e.g. the GM) playing my character or altering their actions (unless they are under the influence of drugs, fever, spells, etc.), is among the most severe OoC-IC violations I know. It's not so much about the results but about how a character behaves or doesn't. bnc wouldn't have shot at the van.

I once let the GM decide my character's action in a special situation and he decided something I'd never have done. It took months of roleplaying until my character was again viewed in the way she was. Maybe I'm overreacting but it was a very annoying experience to have people see my character different than to what she is, and even before that happened I was strongly against OoC influences. So I'd ask you to kindly edit the part about ditching the van. The rest, of course, is absolutely valid.

Also, happy holidays biggrin.gif
Gilga
I'll wait for it to be resolved.
Jack_Spade
@Volker

I'm sorry, but from my perspective this is exactly what your actions IP had as a consequence:

The spirit was inside the closed car. And even if you did not accept it, both bnc and your bot acted at -10 ini.
You shot at the spirit inside the car before your bot had the chance to evacuate you: Your command for James was given in the same ini phase when you opened fire.

How else can I interprete that?
Volker
As I explained before: I was under the impression that I had line of sight, as I explicitly moved the drone back in order to defend myself against a spirit materializing inside the van. Whether this happens through windows, doors or because the drone is inside the van, was not clarified. You can, as GM, of course say that the action I intended to do is not possible the way I imagined it, but you can't just alter it to your perception of the situation. I even delayed an action for that specific event! How clear can I make that I'm going to shoot at the fragging thing?

It just feels like I'm not in control of my character. I declared over several posts that this is the situation I was afraid from, even withdrew the drone for that specific event, prepared myself, and then I'm not only surprised (without even getting a surprise roll) but I also can't decide how I act in a situation you obviously saw different than I did. You know, I'm used to be able to discuss things with a GM, and if the situation is unclear, of course it's the GM's call what the situation looks like, but the way we play it in my group, I at least have a call how I then react otherwise.

See, from my perspective, there are several ways to deal with the limited possibilites of interaction through pbp:
- either everyone precisely describes every detail of their actions - including you as a GM. That's fine by me, but then we have to slow down considerably.
- or unclear situations get cleared beforehand. In this case, you would have said "You can't shoot directly at the spirit, but you can try and shoot it through the van." to which I would have said "No, I'll just open the doors like I stated two posts ago"
- or you just assume an action but give me a veto if you do (even so, the closest approximation to what I wrote would have been a delayed action until the door opens)

But just interpreting my preparations and my actions in a way you see fit but doesn't match my intentions (or even my descriptions), not claryfying things, altering my actions and then let consequences of actions I never declared arise, is not a way I have fun playing with. I have been overruled on a couple of occasions now (like, when you fought out the whole end fight of Panzerknacker without allowing me to act) and while I enjoy your GMing style in general, your fantasy, your stories, your creativity, your NPCs and your usually very beneficial way, I must insist that I can play my character myself. I love bnc, and someone else steering her is just a red line.
Jack_Spade
First: At no time did I change any action you described or controlled your character. I merely applied your stated course of action to the actual situation according to the rules.

What gave you the impression that you had line of sight? I pretty clearly stated in my description of the van that there were no windows. Also, I stated that the corpselight spirit was invisible in its non-astral form. So even while it was manifesting, you only had the sensor feed of the drone you were jumped in to work with - and that couldn't pick up the signature. For all you knew, the shadow spirit was blocking your exit.

The reason I stated that everyone that isn't astrally perceiving is "late to the combat" was the fact that the action started on the astral. There just wasn't anything for you to react on. Your attack happened in the same action that you gave James your order, which makes it obvious that he couldn't have evacuated you before you started shooting. bnc ignored Anna's very reasonable suggestion to get out of VR and switch to AR, which would actually have allowed you to escape in the same action. (But even then you'd have been in melee range of the spirit and got an intercept attack - which I assumed was the reason you started firing regardless)

I agree that action economy is very difficult to manage with so many people acting. Which is why you have to state every action clearly in terms of necessary action types (free, simple and complex) and not expect a stated string of actions to survive beyond its first link. It's alright to state intent, but don't get angry if the situation doesn't play out exactly as planed.

On to resolving this clusterfrag:

From now on I'd ask all of you to post your actions in the following format:

Example:
Ini: 24
Free Action: Switch Firing mode
Simple action: Command Drone: Open door, carry me outside while covering me from attack
Simple action: Three round burst at Manifested Spirit inside van if I have line of sight, otherwise I just aim

Drone Ini: 19
Move to Van door
Complex action: open Van door


End of my first Combat Phase


Hopefully that way there won't be any confusion as to what is and isn't happening





As for the end of Panzerknacker: I'm sorry you feel resentment for that, but if I remember correctly, you were unable to post for one/a few day(s) while the climactic action scene happened. Real Life comes first, but that doesn't mean everyone else is not allowed to post. You had bnc stashed out of harms way, so I didn't feel you were unduly impacted by not participating directly, especially after the whole story revolved heavily around hacking, drone jacking and gathering matrix information.

Volker
ad First: Given, technically you didn't "change" it, you just interpreted in a way that makes it absurd, illogical, pointless and random. But yeah, technically it was the action I specified.

ad What gave me the impression? I missed the fact that you stated somewhere that there are no windows, that's my bad. What gave me the impression is that you didn't mention that I can't delay an action to shoot at the thing when it pops up nor that even by moving back the drone to intercept the spirit in the van, I can't intercept the spirit. From your point of view, I must have over the course of several posts just randomly performed pointless actions. I actually laughed when the spirit just jumped into the trap I prepared for it and told everyone about, and was then absolutely surprised that that's not remotely the case.

ad Surprise: I'm absolutely okay with being late in combat if there's nothing to react to. But "surprise" is a game term that doesn't apply. That makes things confusing. Also, it means something else entirely.

ad new format: I absolutely thing we should do it that way but I'd like to point out that it wouldn't have helped anything in this situation as the problem was that the two of us had differenct conceptions of the situation and once I/we realized that we saw the situation differently, I had no chance to state what I want to do. If you assume you have LOS, you don't write "if I have LOS". I will try and be more precise in the future, however.

ad end of Panzerknacker: Forgotten. I just don't want it to become a habit. If you play SR in RL and someone receives a phone call that lasts over an hour, you wouldn't just continue the fight and let their character stand nearby, drooling, would you?
Thanee
QUOTE (Jack_Spade @ Aug 25 2018, 09:55 AM) *
The reason I stated that everyone that isn't astrally perceiving is "late to the combat" was the fact that the action started on the astral.


Yeah, I figured that... using the term "surprised" (which is something different) was a little confusing there. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
About the drone attack van thingie... I do agree with Volker, that you should not have the drone shoot through the van (since that is just a dumb thing to do; bnc has a Logic of 8; she might be a lot of things, but dumb ain't one of them... yet you kinda let her act like she was).

If you see an action that makes no sense in your eyes, it might very well be a case of misunderstanding or different perceptions of the situation. Better to ask/clarify instead of making assumptions and jumping to conclusions, I think.

Pointing out the actual actions could certainly help to make things a little clearer.

Or adding conditionals, like "if I can get LoS to the spirit, shoot; otherwise wait".

smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Jack_Spade
The point is, it wasn't pointless, it was reckless. The rifle is high powered enough to pierce the armor with a good roll (it was only one DV away from doing so). And with the wall shot the spirit did not get his 20 dice to defend against the attack.
It had a real chance of success - that's why I didn't give my usual warning. And why Eliza didn't call it dumb but dangerous.
By the rules there was no particular danger to the character and it made sense, so I let this action flow as stated. Heck, I've used the "shoot through the wall" trick often enough myself to accept this as a valid tactic.

bnc has a history of wanting to do things her way and not wanting to wait for others (you could say she likes to go with the head through the wall). I totally saw it within her personality to rely on her instincts and her ability to calculate the shot even without a direct visual to try it - especially since she felt under immediate threat. Great intelligence doesn't prevent you from making emotional decisions. And I certainly don't want to railroad you

Gilga
.
Jack_Spade
@gilga
I think you posted that in the wrong thread
Volker
It's all right. You did what you thought best and I didn't like the output. Things like that happen. Next time both of us will have learned from this incident and will do better. For me, the important part wasn't whether this was a good idea or not but whether bnc would have deemed it a good idea, which she certainly wouldn't have (even if it maybe was), which again you couldn't have known because from what you observed from her, it was a valid assumption. We miscommunicated in this regard and the outcome was something awkward. I'm sure, next time something like this happens you will ask before writing an interpretation and I will in turn try to be more specific about what exactly I'm doing at which point of time.

more importantly: I cannot use First Aid on drain, can I? I'm pretty sure the CRB says no, but IIRC Thanee somewhere said "luckily you can use First Aid on drain", so now I'm insecure.
Gilga
I am under the impression that you cannot heal drain with first aid. If this is not the case than Anna would be excited to be the first patient.
Jack_Spade
You can't first aid it away, but you can use medicine to generate bonus dice to the heal check - one hour of rest and some care and you should be good to go again.
Gilga
@Jack - you are some kind of dice prophet - check it out:
Rest 1 hour: 14d6t5 9

So if we rest for an hour, Anna becomes new, but given her personality, she'd like to continue without rest.

Thanee
Sorry, my bad. Drain cannot be healed by any means, except resting. Thought it was only magical means, that could not heal it, but that must have been SR4. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Volker
What would I have to buy to lose no dice to improvised medical supplies?
I find no prices for autodoc drones? Where do I find anything about them?
Jack_Spade
The easiest would be to install a valkyrie pod - that comes with an R6 Autodoc.
Otherwise, there is the Caduceus Drone which costs more and only rates as R4

To use the medicine skill to aid healing, a medkit suffices.
Volker
Is it just Anna ordinary autosoft? Could I upgrade James to be an autodoc?
Jack_Spade
Sure, just get him the medicine Autosoft
Volker
So, rating 6 would cost me 3000 nuyen and then James would grant me a +6 dice pool modifier on medicine rolls?
Jack_Spade
Not exactly: You still need a wireless enabled medkit for him. And you can either get a teamwork bonus through him or you can let it work autonomous (hence autodoc). Although Pilot 4 + Autosoft 6 + Medkit 6 certainly isn't too shabby.
Thanee
Medkit only helps with First Aid, though, not Medicine. Might help to counter negative modifiers for equipment, but no bonus dice or anything.

Bye
Thanee
Jack_Spade
Just reread Bullets&Bandages and of course it's much more complicated than I remembered:

First of all: You don't need anything else then a high rating Medkit - no matter if you use First Aid or Medicine.
Then, there is a difference between an actual autodoc drone and a drone that just has the appropriate autosoft - namely that the autodoc has some kind of integrated medkit that doesn't give an additional bonus.

Paradoxically, that makes a normal drone better, since it can just use Pilot+Autosoft+Medkit bonus.

If on the other hand you just want to get the support from the Medkit or the Autodoc you don't get more than the +6 wireless bonus from Medkit/Autodoc.
Interesting if you have a medicine or first aid skill of 7 or higher, having multiple drones use teamwork for you might give you a better result (up to your skill in bonus dice)
Thanee
Isn't teamwork cumulative with the bonus from the medkit?

Bye
Thanee
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