Why should it not be?

"If you’re using astral perception (or you are otherwise dual-natured), you can cast spells on targets in either the physical world or astral plane." (p. 281 SR5)

Seems pretty straightforward to me.




The part I am also wondering about here is, that smoke gives a visibility modifier (table on next page). It shouldn't block line of sight completely, or not?

Bye
Thanee

Alright Grenade it is: She'll run after him and use the fling spell.
Using the fling spell to toss the grenade- fling flashbang grenade.: 13d6t5 5
drain: 15d6t5 6

edit: I forgot about the sustaining penalty, (If she can drop intuition spell, then she would keeping the 5 hits, otherwise she'll have 4 hits - I mean she needs the free acgtion to levitate.).
At any case, 4 hits or 5 hits should be enough to have the grenade land at the middle of the smoke cloud. Damage is 10S -5AP (Flashbang) but I doubt it'll do anything on itself, the smoke should be cleared and then she can levitate.

@Thanee
You should read the whole paragraph:

"You need to be able to establish a link with your target—depending
on the spell, you’ll need to be able to see or touch the tar-
get in order to establish the mystical link.
If you need to see the target, line of sight can be es-
tablished with your natural vision, including using reflec-
tive surfaces and looking through transparent objects.
Cyber- or bioware visual enhancements that have been
paid for with Essence count as natural. Any technologi-
cal visual aid that digitizes or augments the visual input
for you (a camera, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc.) doesn’t work—you’re looking at a generated image,
not the light from the real target. Spellcasting by visual
targeting is subject to normal visibility modifiers. You can
use visual targeting to target astral targets when you’re
in astral space (you’re not technically seeing them, but
the analogy works)."

The bolded part is the important one.

What you are refering to is the attacking people on the astral part where you need to be dual natured

Besides: Smoke puts a physical obstacle in your LoS - there is no reason to assume that Astral Perception can see through that just as it can't see through walls.

Also, the IR-smoke applies a -6 to visibility which is equivalent to no line of sight or a blind shot. You could still use an indirect combat spell, since those work like guns, but nothing that requires to lock on an aura.


@gilga
Soak: 32d6t5 9
1 point of stun, but it's rounded down and away (Flashbang has AP-4)

Assault gets to resist again: Resist: 14d6t5 3
And you have him in the air.

How far did you run after him? I assume you closed to 12m since you didn't incorporate range penalties

I was not sure how range goes... I don't remember them by heart. If posdible I'd like to keep a few meters of movement for another explosive grenade.

@Thanee: To be dual-natured (e.g. Astral Perception) means kind of having a body on both planes - it doesn't mean that those planes intermingle. If you can astrally perceive a mundane target, you're still not connected on the same plane as it is only your astral body who's able to establish "line of sight" to the victim. So, astrally perceiving doesn't allow you any more to cast a spell at a target than astral projection - unless, of course, you also have line of sight in the physical realm.


@Jack: reg. Counterspelling: sure, a detection spell can be blocked by Counterspelling but the spirits cannot use Counterspelling on the mage in the first place as you made quite clear there is no line of sight. The spirits stayed in the fight with us. They can use Spell Defense for themselves, of course, but not for the mage.
Also, is not true. Spell defense is a dicepool modifier for the defender not for the attacker.
So each of the spirits resist on their own (probably with Force*2 + Counterspelling) but the mage only gets to resist with his WIL+LOG (which will probably enough against 3 hits anyway; also it's indeed questionable whether the mage has "hostile intentions towards" Wraith.)

Then explain this quote to me:

"If you’re using astral perception (or you are otherwise dual-natured), you can cast spells on targets in either the physical world or astral plane."

1) If you are using astral perception (not the "otherwise dual-natured"), you are blind. NO line of sight on the physical world possible.
2) If you are using astral perception, you can cast spells on targets on the physical world.

How can these two work, if you need physical line of sight?


IMHO, astral vision is enough to qualify for line of sight (otherwise ghoul mages would be pretty sad). The important part is, that you have to be on the same plane with your physical body, in order to use magic on someone. The targeting is completely disconnected from that part.


Anyways, that's how I see it. If you are not convinced, let's move on.

Bye
Thanee

Where do you get premise 1) from? I always imaginad astral perception overlaying the physical one, kind of like AR.

Essentially, this. But it is not very... clear on what it means.

"SHIFT PERCEPTION
A character capable of Astral Perception may shift perception to or from Astral Space as a Simple Action."

This part makes it crystal-clear, though.

"Dual-natured critters are active in both the astral plane and the physical plane at the same time. They can affect both astral and physical beings. They can perceive and interact with the astral plane like characters using astral perception (see Astral Perception, p. 312). Being dual natured, though, is different from astral perception in that a dual-natured critter always senses both the physical and astral worlds; they don’t have to shift back and forth (and, in fact, cannot do so)."

Bye
Thanee

Good point. I agree and take back everything I said ^^ thanks!

Just in case you are waiting for me.



Bye
Thanee

Reading it again, I see you are right. I missinterpreted the first sentence
"Spell defense is used against hostile spells cast at you or at targets that are within your line of sight (using the same rules as for targeting spells) that you decide to protect with spell defense."

to mean that any spell with an area effect that affects you can be disspelled at the source - but that was a mix up with the disspelling section.

But since Luckace took drain for it, I think it's fair to give him the info:
The mage is currently about 15m below him and 10m to the south.

@Thanee
Ghouls are blind which is why they have to rely on touch, get cybereyes or only use indirect combat spells or target dual natured critters on the astral.

Sight (i.e. the real reflected light) was always essential for casting spells in shadowrun, unless you were actually targeting things on the astral.

Who's turn is it?

Sorry, bit out of the loop. Thanksgiving.

Yours

@gilga

You probably should also write that you throw a grenade and levitate Assault again.

I was waiting for the Shark (that has the same initiative but higher edge than Anna).

Edit: Wrote something.

Ah, nice! Thanks for the info, Jack.

@SD I am confused by Shark's last action, Shark should be at the street with Assault, he just kicked the man. He is not at the window as far as I know.

That was up on the scaffolds, which are currently in the process of falling to the ground along the whole Northside of the building

Is the van armed?

Nope. It has gunports though, so you can let your drone shoot out from cover.

bnc 21 (pick up drone and leap into the van)
Anna's Spirit: 18 (Searching for mage, Terrorized)
Mage 17 (gone)
Guardian Spirit 15 (fear Anna's spirit)
Bound Guardian Spirit 13 Fear Aeraziel
Aeraziel 13 (searching for Mage)
Assault 12 runs (smoke grenade)
Nova 11 (interrupt) (delay)
Sharkboy 9 (interrupt) (Aims at Assault)
Anna 9 (interrupt) (Runs after Assault, disperses smoke)
Wraith 6

Alright So it is Nova's turn.

The drone with the good gun is broken, though, and James only has a Savelette mounted. That's like trying to stone a concrete wall. I think, I'll try and help out Eliza.

You can fire a called shot to disarm (before Anna explodes).

Since Assault has no edge, and no defense dice:
Damage resitance: 28d6t5 8 which means he'll take 13 stun from Nova's attack, or 6 physical damage.
He'll have (if I am following) 16 physical damage and a full stun monitor. (Jack feel free to correct me).

That is correct. Also, that puts him into 1 overflow and he'll begin to bleed out while also going unconscious

So can we get out of combat time?

Depends: Do you want to stick around?
Because there are more enemies inbound

I had Anna rush to the man, touch him to cast the stabilize spell and she would slowly carry him to the van. (I assume it would take a short while, as she can only levitate him 7 meters a combat turn unless the Shark/Nova get there to help her.). Anna plans to do as bnc commands and go to the van.

I assume these actions would take more than a combat turn (but let's see how it goes) I'll edit if needed.

Wait, easy... We're not yet ready to leave the CR sequence. There's still the mage running about. Please remain within the sequence until everyone has declared action that are not time-critical

Yeah, Wraith is still in a combat situation with the two spirits, but the mage is pretty safely out of play as he makes his way away from the appartment building (for reference: 15m below Wraith means the mage is in the sub-basement - which is quite a trick considering that the building has only one cellar level.

Phase 3:

bnc: 11,
Anna's spirit at 8 (but without an order, it can fulfill it cannot face the spirits.).
Gurdian spirit 1: 5
Gurdian spirit 2: 3

I'll wait for my turn then Does Anna knows that Wraith is in a combat situation?

He can still be followed by spirits.


Something else entirely: What can my spy drones (=Noizquitos) tell me about incoming enemy reinforcements?

Quite simple: Police sirens can now be heard getting closer.

@Spirits: Yes, although you'd need to use the spirit search power - and preferably before the mage takes refuge behind a powerful barrier or gets to far away.

@Jack Quite impressive about the police considering they raised the alarm 9 seconds ago, but very dramatic.

Seems like it is high time to disappear. My suggestion is to let the mage go, we can torch the place/explode it to protect Bean-si - but we are not positioned well to go after him. I barely remember what happened before the combat, but I assume we had other hints to exploit? (There was a river-ship I remember).

Well, I'd still favor sending spirits after him. Underground he's quite cut-off from backup and he's pretty slow in his mist form (assuming that's how he got underground, but I don't know too much about infected).

@Gilga: I don't know if Anna knows about the combat situation, but her spirit could theoretically know about it.

@Jack: Does my air spirit still have to use the search power? It should now his exact location, after all.

Initiatives for next round:
Initiative Aeraziel: 12+3d6 21

Initiative Wraith (astral): 10+2d6 15

@gilga
The police call went out shortly after the drones went down. You took a few minutes to get into position.

@Luckace
AFAIK your air spirit did not find him, but you got him with your detect enemies spell.

Furthermore: Spirits and other astral beings can't enter the earth. So without knowing which pipe he is crawling through and where it surfaces, you can't even say where to enter.

And before someone disputes that:

"The Earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in
the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it.
Secure facilities are often built underground to keep out
astral intruders."
p. 314

Something else entirely. Jack, please confirm:
From my point of view, the van should be very close to Assault as I moved it to the piece of lawn behind the flat - which is the exact piece of lawn we are all now. So, unless I'm mistaken, they should pretty much be on the same place.
If not, would I need a Complex Action Pilot Groundcraft to steer the van towards Assault? Or else: The van still has the command to drive to a certain point. Will a Free Action be enough to change the location it goes to - to Assault?

It's no problem to get the van to Assault and load him into the back. The backyard leads to the garages so the ground is paved to be driven on.

@luckace - It'll take us a while to find the mage, and it would be difficult to take him down, even if we do and slay him in his myst form in the sub-sub-basement. What would it accomplish? We are not going to dig him out, and I don't see how we can capture him alive. (Not that we are equipped to restrain a person of his caliber in the first place). I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.

@Gilga:
Hm... Reading through the whole process again, you might have a point. You are probalby right, at this point, the chances of catching him are extremely small. A shame, he could pose quite a threat...

I had not expected him to get so far away so easily: At 27, he became mundane, since then he had two passes.
I expected him to travel by mist form (which takes a complex action and only goes 5m per turn, I believe), so i had figrued he could not go underground (let alone travel from the fourth floor to underneath the basement) as quickly, even if becoming dual natured again works instant.

@Jack: You sure that he can cover this much ground in just two phases (keeping in mind that the rooms should probably have a minmum height of 2,40m plus ceiling plus floor, even if he can move downwards in a single, straight line, which I would doubt )? If he's using a different way of moving, then I take back any doubts - no need to spill how he does it

You're right that my spirit hasn't found him, but shouldn't it know its exact location through my spell? Can it travel there / what actions would I have to spend to have it look for a sewer crate or whatever he used?

Maybe he is using a spirit with the Movement power, that can make you really fast.

Bye
Thanee

@Luckace

Don't assume an error immediately, there are in fact several ways to take the skin of a rat...

As for finding your way to him: Just because you know where someone is in a labyrinth doesn't tell you how to get there. You'd need the Spatial Sense spell to do so.


Once Wraith has acted:

bnc 11
Mage 7 (gone)
Guardian Spirit 5
Bound Guardian Spirit 3
Aeraziel 3
Nova 1

OK, thanks for clarifying. I take back any doubts about mist form
And just to make sure there's no unnecessary waiting: I consider wraith's action done, he has spent his two simple actions on revealing the mage.

I tried to find any rules regarding this, but apparently there are no penalties or other disadvantages whatsoever for hacking while Jumped Into a drone.
Also, I'm still not sure whether or not I need any actions to steer the van towards Anna but you made it sound like I wouldn't.

So, if both is true, I will try and help Eliza with the spider:
Phase 11:
Free Action: Swap Baby Monitor for Toolbox.
Complex Action: Matrix Perception (hot-sim): 15d6t5 9
With that, I should be able to locate the spider.

Remember, my priority is getting to Anna, so if that takes an action I will do that instead.

@Volker
You do find the spider indeed: they are using he equivalent of a Sony CIY-720 with two modules (using the new quality from Kill Code), a modded attribute (lowest was reduced by one, highest increased by one). Also the deck is overclocked and switches rapidly configurations. As far as you can see, they are in hot-sim and use full defense. One of those modules is a virtual machine carrier, the other is noise reduction.

But once the decker notices your persona joining the fray, their first action is to vanish into a host.


Next actions: The two guardian spirits vanish to their home plane.

And show exactly did he notice me without an matrix perception check?

Are you running silent and hiding from her?
Otherwise I assume, teammates are aware of each other's personas

Wait. Is Eliza vanishing or the spider?

The point is, I'm not hiding for her or him but I have neither moved nor set any actions against either of them. For all they know, I'm still engaged with the others. They have no means to tell whether I'm treating Assault, searching for the mage or looking for the spider.

Please describe the current matrix situation. Who is on the same grid with me, how much damage has the spider already received, does Eliza have a mark on him (I should be able to see that with my Matrix perception roll)?

The decker uses the ninja vanish quality to gain a hide action whenever Eliza marks them.
We are running into the rules/description disconnect:

Fluff says that you move through the matrix to visit whatever event/persona/icon you want to see.
But the rules don't support that in a meaningful way.

If you want we can leave that kind of description out in the future. In that case I'll need a list of questions that you want answered with your matrix perception test.

To answer your question, she had a mark on him and he deleted it followed by a free hide action.

I'm happy either way, as long as it's consistent. Just tell me which way you wanna play. But since you said I have to perform a matrix perception to look for the spider despite my knowing Eliza's position and knowing there were in combat with each other, I naturally assumed that my simply looking for him would not raise his attention. That's why I don't understand why he ninja vanishes. It's something else entirely, if that's just coincidence and he tried to escape her the very moment I spotted him.
Either way, I just need to know how we play it and where who is.

The ninja vanish action doesn't provide a hide action. It just allows to erase marks. He still has to manually hide and change the host. Or did you mean Fade to Black? It's still an action, though. There's no such thing as a Free Hiding action. That means, even after spending an action, I either still spot him or he's still on our grid.
Unless I miss a thing, of course.

I don't want to discuss anything. I just wanna know what situation I'm in.