#2 it wouldn't matter.

#1 It occurs to me that you probably wouldn't need to answer. If your comm is "ringing" then some kind of a single must be going through. And if there is a signal, it can be traced. Does this make sense to you, Adam?

I don't know what adjudication has been made here about tracking based on commcodes. There's an interesting discussion of it in the Deep Water Blackout OOC thread and probably many more on the real forums.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=718636

My "phone" could be alerting my that someone is attempting to connect, but that does not mean the "phone" is responding to the message and informing the other device that a connection is made.

Sender --> Receiver
Sender <--> Receiver

In both cases the receiver gets a message, but in one the sender does get a response, in the other they don't.

If you are standing around the corner and can't see around it, and you shout your message, how can you tell if the person around the corner has received it? Or in fact, if there is a person around the corner. But you can see that the person around the corner could receive the message and you wouldn't know if they did.

BTW, it has nothing to do with wireless or wired. You can send a signal down the wire and have no idea what is going on the other end.

Obviously once there is a response, then a connection is established, at which point tracing does become easier.

Alas, just when I thought it was safe to get back online.

Normally I would make a decision to keep the game going, but I like to be more meticulous than that in PVP.

First question, since we know that Sledge did answer her phone -
DV - when you say "trace" are you talking about the Traceroute power? And the three seconds on the line is the "sniff of data" that you base the attempt on? Is that how you intend me to read your long post? Or by "trace" did you mean "Track"?

Next, as for Rocky not answering an unknown call - that I will definitely rule is NOT metagaming - I know tons of players/characters that make it a policy never to answer unknown callers.

Does simply ringing allow an exchange of data? I read everyone's arguments there (though I won't pretend I did more than skim the referenced threads) and I am strongly inclined to say NO. Just ringing does not send anything back.

The only hesitation I had is, I am embarrassed to say, that in that silly film Eagle Eye it said that the evil government can track your cell phone even if it is turned off, as long as the batter is in it? Is that conspiracy magic?

So how it is now is that my tentative ruling is "no answer, no data."
DV, if you are convinced by everyone else's arguments, play on (but answer my question about your sprite).
If you are seriously unconvinced, let me know, and I will try to find time on Saturday to pore over all the threads and make a final, fully informed decision.

So far, Sledge has answered, Rocky hasn't, Fort undeclared.

Evil Announcement

As you all know, I try to make it a rule to post at least once a day, six days a week.
And you all know that I kept that up for two years!
But you also all know that I have not been keeping that up in the past several months.

The fact is that responsibilities at work, home and church are expanding exponentially.

Just, crazy expanding.

Wild I can't even sleep anymore expanding.

As such, I am officially no longer even claiming to be a six-day-a-week GM.
I am committed to providing at least two thorough bumps a week.
Naturally I will TRY for more!
But for now, I am just letting people know that my current target is two a week.

I just hope I can keep that up.
And maybe, just maybe, I will manage to replace the quantity with a return to quality.

Only thing I would say is that I don't need to have an exchange of data for a track (and I did mean track, not traceroute. Sorry about the confusion).
The way I see it, it would have to work something like this. I place the call. By placing a call, a message goes to the Comm Company (henceforth CC) stating that Comm #X wants to reach Comm #Y. The CC then sends a message to all the node it associates with Comm #Y. This node is is either external to the PAN (in the case of a drop box or a relay) or the PAN itself. Unless the PAN is in constant communication with the CC, difficulties arise when the node physically moves (as is the case with PANs), because then, unless the PAN's signal can reach the CC's transmitter, it needs to travel through intermediary nodes. It is even more difficult because the CC needs to know which intermediary nodes to send the message through (i.e. which node's wireless signal is in range of the PAN's signal. There are two ways to do this.
1) send a one way signal from a more powerful broadcaster that tells the commlink to send a little burst of data designed to be recognized by the nearest node which can act as a relay. That node then reports to the CC, and a route of intermediary nodes is selected.
2) All possible relay nodes send out a burst of data designed to be recognized by the commlink, which is turns sends out an "I'm here" databurst. Either way, the CC can then plot a route of intermediary nodes.

If the CC is in constant communication with the PAN, then it already has a route of intermediary nodes established.
All this happens in the time between when the phone call is placed, and when it starts to ring. The phone cannot start to ring until the CC has sent a message to the phone (after establishing what intermediary nodes are to be used) telling it to ring. Therefore, there is a data trail leading from my comm, to the comm company, to the other comm. To track a call, all I need to do is follow the data trail MY comm's "please start ringing" request leaves behind. Before someone raises objections about the difficulties of tracking a message once it reaches the CC, I would like to point out that unless two comms are communicating directly (ie within signal range of eachother, using a laser link, skinlink, or direct fibreopic cable) the call would have to pass through the CC anyways even if it was a two way signal, and thus the track program must already be equipt to handle tracing a call through a normal CC.

However there are two other solutions that avoid tracing an unanswered call, and Adam needing to make an immediate decision.
1)Would you consider it meta gaming for ERROR to suspect that Rocky isn't answering calls from unfamiliar numbers, and thus spoof the call to make it look like it came from one of the other team member's comms (at this point either Smith or Sledge)? As you said, it is standard practice for some runners not to answer calls from unrecognized numbers. ERROR would certainly know this is a possibility, and more likely than a professional runner being utterly unreachable.
2) Does my sleuth sprite have enough data to use the traceroute power on Rocky?

Yeah, you have done a remarkable job staying on top of this game. I don't think you have anything to apologize for.

All I'm going to say is that it's easy enough to lose packets at a network boundary and have no idea where they end up really. All it takes is one in the chain to forward the packet without responding to the sender for this to happen.

Not to say you shouldn't be able to do it, the sprites have powers and have dice to do magical stuff. It's just that the network topology and protocol explanation being used to justify an in game dice roll cuts both ways. If you argue the power works because the device must connect in order for a "phone to ring" I have to point out that in fact it doesn't. It's actually quite easy to have a switch/hub/relay pass on packets without informing the sender they've received it. And a network doesn't need a point to point connection for communication to happen either.

Either we roll the dice and there is a chance or not. I think when there is definite two way connection, ti can happen, as would be the case when SLedge answers. WHen someone deliberately doesn't answer, then my opinion is that it's perfectly possible for the trace not to work since there isn't an established connection to follow.

THe analogy to use us really sending a letter in the mail. On the matrix it happens realy really fast, but that's what is really the best model to think about. When the letter arrives in the mailbox, the receiver can tell there's mail, someone is attempting to connect, but they do not have to pick it up. And if it's a p o box, you still don't know where they live.

I'll just jump in to point out again that drawing any real-life analogies to Shadowrun technology is kind of pointless. For all we know, there is an army of tiny gnomes in your pocket cranking a wheel to keep your commlink on. I mean, the batteries last literally FOREVER.

True about the analogy to RL and game.

Basically, I am not sure I like that all the TM needs is a commcode and presto, you are tracked down. There should be some benefit to hidden mode.

"Hidden: In this mode, your PAN is invisible to other
nodes unless you access or authorize them. PAN users in hidden
mode are said to be “ghosting,” since there is no way for
other users to see them. Using hidden mode is discouraged in
some high-class social situations, where it is considered rude. In
other areas, however—particularly tech-free zones or shadow
establishments where privacy is expected—the opposite is true.
Certain secure areas and high-class establishments prohibit users
from operating in hidden mode, and will punish those doing
so with expulsion, arrest, or worse."

I think they would have mentioned it somewhere if Hidden mode was supposed to offer benits. The only way I see that it could would be if you were also hiding from your phone company, i.e. refusing all phone calls.

It's an sprite power in an expansion book we discussing. In the absence of updating the core rulebook, it should have a better description in the sprite power itself, but it's a bit space consuming to have a power in the expansion list all the interaction with a core general rule.

In my analysis, it's really too overpowering and not fair to not have situations where track and sleuth are not impeded, and making Active have no penalties, Passive Mode have some, and Hidden be extremely difficult would be something I would apply.

Why have Active Passive and Hidden modes if they make no difference?

Okay, jumping in again, since someone mentioned phone companies. The way I think it works, you have to be connected to your MSP to recieve phonecalls in the first place. If someone calls you, and you're either offline, or just disconencted from your MSP, the call gets sent to your voiec mailbox.

You're almost certainly NOT sending point-to-point messages to one another. Error is sending a phone call request to your MSP, with the commcode of the user he wants. They check to see if you're online. if you are, they give you the notice. If you're not, he gets your voicemail.

In either case, there's no good reason they would connect him to you until after you've accepted the phone call.

As for Hidden, Passive and active modes, these refer to your detectability in regards to scan tests. I see it as follows.
Active means that other nodes can access your PAN. Malls can look at your shopping history and tailor adds to suit you and direct you to stores of interest, airports can keep tract of you boarding pass, stores can charge to your account automatically as you walk out with goods, strangers can read some kind of profile page (think Facebook, Myspace, etc), the tailor can get your measurements, Restaurants can present you their menu in AR with your favorites highlighted, etc.

In passive mode, you can still access menus and inventories and mall directories, but since you are not giving any person information, they cannot make recommendations. automatically charge to you account, you social networking profile is hidden, and you have no AROs associated with you in AR. You can, of course, subscribe to particular nodes and get the benifit of active mode in regards to that node, or let someone see your social networking page. If someone did a network search in a network you were on, your name would come up.

In hidden mode, you do not communicate with any node that you have not deliberately given permission to. You don't see ads, mall directories, menus, etc. Searching a network will not reveal your presence, because you are not connected to any. The only way to find your PAN is with an electronic warfare+Scan test.

Just a reminder, IC Sledge is accepting the incoming call and I have no objection to Trace working at that point.

Whatever the explanation and wording you use the end result is you are asking for an unopposed dice test with no situational or conditional modifiers to instantly find another node as long as you know it exists.

As long as I know I commcode, and the node that commcode is linked to is accepting calls (i.e. it doesn't go to voice male). I shouldn't think that would be harder than tracing a normal, two way call. But yes, I know Sledge did answer. Fortuno is undeclared, and Rocky I will probably have to use the Sleuth Sprite's Traceroute power, or spoof another commcode.

Fort's sleeping after a reasonably long week, there's about a 50/50 chance that he'll just slam the hang up button. To that end, we'll let the dice decide -- high roll has him answering

Die of Fate # dice 1 :: 4 -- 0 hits

IC up shortly.

Unwired is a pretty darned good book and a big help, but it is testament to the overreaching of the devs that the above debate still has to take place for what should be clearly delinieated in the rules - I mean, tracing someone electronically? How could they have missed this?

Anyway, I had a big long real-world based set of thoughts on this, but I am just not interested in typing it up - and BlackHat is right, this is a game and not a telecommunications theory discussion.

I am coming down on the side of the general consensus that if the call is not answered, Track is not possible. If any Mook could track any comm just by knowing its commcode, NO shadowrunner or underworld type would ever carry a commlink. I do not believe that is how the rules were intended.

As for how to handle Rocky, I would rather DV not now decide to send out a fake message. It is one thing for a player to meet one stimulus with a detailed response - that is what the game is. It is another to go back to an earlier action and change it in light of what has happened. Not saying anyone is trying to be unfair - just that we can't be backtracking that way - it would just never stop.

So Error has made a connection for his Track action with Sledge (in a taxi) and Fort (in his apartment). The time stamps are the same, but that is really only because I asked DV to shotgun the actions - assume they are actually far enough apart that Error won't have to do two things at once.
Compared your rolls to their commlinks, and you track both to within 50 meters of where they are at the end of the first three seconds of your call.

Need to know what people do when no one is on the other side of the call they just got (or if Error changes mind and chooses to speak).
Rocky, an IC of you not answering your phone or whatever wouldn't hurt for completeness sake.

As for a data "sniff" for traceroute, yes, you have enough to have your sprite initiate such an action.

I will do my best to get that up in the next 24 hours.

If someone speaks, there may be a conversation. If there's no one communicating, other then the connection itself, then Sledge will turn off her commlink, followed by some other actions.

Sorry for the delay, will get an update up tomorrow.

Fort will hang up and go back to sleep if there's no answer. Given his general state of befuddlement, there's no doubt that will take the three seconds required.

Compiling R6 code sprite. This will change things for my call to Rocky, since it means I will not have had the sleuth sprite to trace him.



So that is 4 tasks owed.

First task is to search the net for all information on Fortunato crossref "Bla"
Data Search 6+ Browse 6= 12 die
1 4 [6] 4 [6] [6] 3 3 2 1 1 3= 3 hits

Oh, and please note my optional powers are Scan and Analyze, I only rolled once (even though it is an extended test) because I couldn't remember what the intervel is. I have a vague recollection that adam has a non-RAW ruling on this but I really can't recall.

This is not in AR or VR, but Error speaking to himself out loud? If so, then Sledge is not hearing anything over the commcall?

Gah, forgot my formatting. Its simulated voice from full VR. Sorry, will fix.

Sorryfor the delay. I haven't slept in about 37 hours. Been preoccupied writing papers, going to classes, and not dying from exhaustion. Right now I am on a nice twelfth wind.

Ahh - youth.


I fear I wrote something incorrect in a recent OOC post.
When resolving DV's tracks, I noted that Sledge was in a taxi. Looking back more closely at the thread, I believe I was mistaken; she is in the cab of the stolen truck, which is in Eddie's garage.

Using auto-success on the watchers.

For the mask, Force 4:
Spellcasting # dice 11 :: 5 5 2 2 1 4 2 2 3 2 2 -- 2 hits
Drain # dice 12 :: 2 4 4 5 3 4 5 3 5 5 3 5 -- 5 hits

Don't know if you want a roll for concealment in the alley. I've included one below in case it becomes relevant. Also, I imagine there are either bonuses or penalties for it being night and Fort having cover. If we are using the roll, they should be applied.
Disguise + Intuition for concealment # dice 5 :: 1 6 1 6 1 -- 2 hits, glitch

shelled out 300 cash for meta-link with vector-xim

Alright. So if I am going to the meet, I am going to have time for the code sprite to do the data search, and use Info-Sortiledge. If I recall I can make as many search tests as my data search skill. So that is 6 tests, and I already made one ('I,' I mean the code sprite).

Here are the other five.


So that is a total of 22 hits.

After, I am going to use another task to order the sprite to use the info sortilege power. I am going to take a charisma+ Negotiations test to offer to wave all further tasks owed if it puts in an exceptional effort, and gets great results. In mechanical terms, I want it to spend a point of edge.



No hits, but it was worth a try. I will get it to use Probability Distortion, though. Both tests in the spoilers.



So the Prob Distort succeeded, and I got 4 hits with info sort, leaving 1 sprite task owed.

Also, for the purpose of getting the flyspy to the meet, I am more or less riding in the node, giving it specific instructions. Not jumped in, but basically going "Fly down this stairwell, wait on this wall, fly through those door into the subway car, wait on that wall, etc. Thus, instead of making one command test on which everything hindges, I think of it more like a few hundred tests in which I bought the needed hits.

EDIT: Sorry for the minimal IC, I am behind in all my games and still trying to catch up. Also, I need to put in the radar roll.

Burning questions before I post IC:
* Can the spirit hear the drone? (I think yes)
* Can the drone hear the spirit? (I think no)

Also, how did the flyspy get through the pizza joint's door?

pragma and DV -

Drone can never detect even a manifested Watcher.

Watcher can see the drone possibly, although they see only in astral, in which a little flyspy is a trick to see. However, in this case the watcher would spot the drone easily since it is projecting a powerful hologram, which makes it obvious (though the watcher can discern nothing about the content of the hologram, just a haze).

I think we can assume the flyspy goes through when the door is swinging open for someone else.

But as for that -
DV - we talked about the projectors for your head.
We did not talk about holograms on this scale from a little flyspy.
Miniaturize electronics all you want, doesn't matter - projecting the hologram takes a huge amount of physical energy, and that from this teensy drone? Compare the hologram's size (humanoid) to that of the projector....
But what the heck, no worries, no big deal.
However, the rules talk about projecting a fairly realistic hologram onto an empty space. Still only two hits to spot. But having one simulate human movement in a cluttered/crowded place like a Stuffer Shack - certainly you can do it, but I really don't think there is any way anyone will not know it is a hologram.

Your radar picks up no one with inordinate amounts of runner gear. But it does pick up someone in the alley with a silenced pistol, so that certainly sets off alarms.
Note that if you ever use a non-radar sensor from the drone, video or something more sensitive to texture/facial recognition, you will see the bearded elf that is Fort, not the ork, as his spell did not beat the object resist threshhold for your drone.

Now - data search. Powerful stuff.
Info sortilage is crazy too powerful. Very much goes to the devs' pro-computer bias (only natural since they KNOW computers, as opposed to guns or magic or dragons).
But it is RAW, so I will honor it to the letter.
And here is the letter of the law -
You asked earlier about my ruling on Data Search - it is not really a ruling but a reminder about what it entails - and that is searches - very comprehensive and excellent searches - of publicly available information. Does not include going to Matrix hangouts and social engineering. And does not include any information from any sort of proprietary database. Just a thorough sifting of blogs and MeFeeds and the zabillions of public databases available.
As for info sortilage, the rules state it requires you to amass "a small hoard of data" to use it. No problem, the rules say how much you have to get via the Data Search.

Thing is, I have been GMing Fort from Day 1, and I cannot think of any possible way there is any online connection between "Fortunato" and "Bla" (rendered in audio and then probably phonetically, by the way, not spelled out). If anyone can go back through the thread and find a possible online connection between those, be my guest.

So without a connection, your clever sprite just looks for Fortunato, for which is gets gazillions of leads. But among the most interesting it reports to you is a rumor that a runner named Fortunato may have been involved in a recent mob hit in which Louie "Fishbreath" Finnegan was killed, possibly at the behest of one Franco Balducci, possibly just by some rogue muscle that had a beef.
Directing your sprite to try its info sortilage on this data plus "Bla" yields no information, but does provide the sprite a vision of CIA headquarters and its super-secure databases.

I think that covers everything in need of refereeing - let me know if I missed something.

Ok time for some rolls for Rocky's addiction.

Saturday 8/23 - Body (8 ) - Addiction (4) = 4 dice
5, 3, 4, 5 = 2 hits (day 4 in a row)

(BTW the last date i made the rolls in RL was 12/12/07, almost a year ago )

JD

JD - way to stay on top of things. Well, I still have my Rocky-withdrawal chart! For you are jonseing and feel like crap, but no game penalties. As you know, you will need another test if you take any wounds. Otherwise, we shall continue this saga after another 24 goes by. Let me know if and what you do in the meantime that may help your upcoming tests.

Hey Adam, mind if I do some edits to my last actions? If I had know my hologram wouldn't have projected realistically, I would not have have gone though with the order, and if I had detect someone with a silencer (and spotting someone with a silencer with UWBR would case my to investigate them via camera, and spot the discrepancy. With these two facts, ERROR would just have the drone approach Fortunato directly.

Sorry about the double post, had to make sure JD saw this.
Rocky has not been called yet. You were last on the list of calls.
You were to be called after Fortunato, and ERROR wouldn't have time to make your call and do the trace until he was back in his hotel room, waiting for when the flyspy needed new instructions. Therefore, it is about another fifteen minutes until you get the call, and it will be from a different number.

Since he shut his comm off - apparently he won't be getting that call.

Ok, nuked the offending post and modified the others.

No calls here.

But as of 5:01 the comm is off.

JD

Holding on IC until after I hear final actions from DV.

Also, I don't expect it will have changed anything, but Fort might be interested to note that when he left that message for Smith, his connection or call went straight to his voicemail (and that he's no longer on the team network).

A paranoid guy who just got a commcall that made him shut off his own commlink can make of that what he will.

Good to know actually -- It might have changed my actions and it certainly colors what I'm going ot do next.

I'll buy the single hit for the area knowledge, security, and stealth to get Rocky and Sledge to an all night street food vendor (Should be some around any all night drinking or work sites) where we can perform our next actions. Tricky since we are both moving without PANS broadcasting. But everyone knows the Man makes us poor trogs and tuskers go out in the early morning on those menial tasks. Someone's got to take away the garbage before all the real people show up.

Speaking of which, I expect those vehicles to be spotless when Smith shows up in the morning.

DV - no problem with the proposed edit.

I think the timing is now to wait on the Pragma DV scene to play out before Rocky and Sledge and Sugar Lips figure out what's next?

That's the plan - although Smith has no plans to reenable his commlink (or wake up) until the next morning/noon/whenever-the-plan-said-they-get-back-together - when he meets the team at the vehicles. So, we'll see how the thing with DV and Fort plays out (should be interesting), but then everyone has effectively cut off communication to everyone else - so we might as well fast-forward to that meeting unless DV has another plan to make contact with Sledge and Rocky before then.

I did update my IC, I am sorry I forgot to mention it.

No big, I caught it. Just been kind of busy. Hope to post on Wednesday night. Maybe Tuesday night.

Alright IC's up. Sorry for the delay -- turkey and all.

Whether the drone slipped past Fort's watchers and his own perception are questions I'm willing to sweep under the rug in the name of momentum, but I do feel that I was entitled to rolls before being snuck up on (snuck upon?... ).

On a similar theme, what is the range UWB radar?

100 meters, I believe.

At least you weren't infiltrated.