yes yes yes yes and yes

Dodge is -1 die for the second roll, so its only 10, with Edge

OK rock and roll, time to roll dem bones.

Ok.. there's been a lot of discussion about this on IRC and I just have to vent....

What he hell is going on?!?!

1) We got no intel on the oncomming gangers, even though we were astrally and technically scanning them out as they approached. We should have had a two minute warning before shit hit the fan.

2) After the whole deal of creating sub-standard characters because gangers don't have the same resources as Shadowrunners, we're clearly faced with NPC cut-outs from the book using full stats. We're clearly outclassed here and you simply seem to have little to no sympathies as to the odds we're against. Sure the streets can be tough, but they shouldn't be murder. The Trolls found us not even a day after we set this 'deal' up, giving us no chance to sort out legwork. (we're teens we don't think of this shit right away, we're not Shadowrunners, remember?)

3) What happened to Slams leadership? He's just sitting there crapping himself and we're all getting killed. Frankly TG all you had needed at the beginning was three words: Hold your fire. This would have gone differently.

4) I realize that Real Life has suddenly made it hard for you to lead this group the way you wanted, but is killing us off the solution? If you don't want to or can't GM anymore, please let us know so we can sort this out among the gang. Many of us have had GM experience and an lighten your work load.

Back to the Game...
Since you've decided that even threading Wyrm's not going to crack the commlinks, and you won't let me spoof the bikes, Wyrm's getting out of VR and running for her bike. My Sprite is going to scatter matrix signatures so that we can't be tracked and her last service she's going to lead the hackers in the opposite direction before derez'ing once her job's complete.

The Dobermans are going to continue firing... The shotgun takes 2 shots per IP, the AK is on suppressive fire using up 20 bullets per round. (full round action)

Electrodes going to send his hovercraft to the front of the HQ and to the river, hopefully to draw away some of the gangers. Meanwhile he's going to take off down Elizabeth St to rendez-vous with his group's ralley point.
0-day will drop out of VR with Wyrm and bum a ride with a team mate or else leave with Electrode in the dune-buggy.

I clearly recall that TG said something like, 'I didn't expect a firefight'.

If there's anyone to be pointing fingers at, Dranem, it's Aziz/Voorhees. I should say *I'm* not pointing fingers. I like JAX a lot, but if we get waxed we get waxed. I'll reroll in a second. And we'll all be 'smarter' for the accumulated jungian wisdom of the shared critter that is the 410 Crash. And we won't let Aziz have any ammo.

WR - I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you know I'm willing.... after using edge on your resistance from shot 1... you brought that damage down to 7P

The rest I will spoil so it may be hidden from those who don't need to know the specifics or shouldn't..... (but you are unfortunately downed)


If you have any questions... feel free to ask me.

About the discussion Dranem started (or better ported over, here from the IRC).

First I have to second Rokur, in that Tinker Gnome has put some big afort into this, especially considdering his stretched timetable.
If there is work to be handed out to deputy GMs, I´d be ok, to take over some share of it along with Mister Juan.
On Dranem´s points, my oppinion diverges little from Rokurs, so I won´t elaborate on that.

On Wounded Ronin´s opinion. I can see that POV though I´m not the bigest fan of the combat aspect of RPGs. I also can handle meaningfull (and even meaningless pc-death), but honestly I´m not sure if I´ll be abled to put much affort into rolling up a new character.

On ES_Sparky´s point. I think, Aziz acted correctly in character, too, but there is a metagame-issue that kept bugging me.
I think the main reason, why this situation escalated, thogh TG didn´t intend it, too, was that his IC post was too condensed and didn´t give enough time to react. There had been a hand full of pc´s that would have started to organize the talking (even before the Trolls spoke up) and thus appeled the others, to hold their fire, even though Slam did not. This had been possible, if Voorhees hadn´t been the first to stumble across the post and react to it´s very end. Thuss I fealt like being robbed of any oportunity to act before the situation escalated.
For this reason I´d be happy to have future GM-IC in such tense situations more sequential, to give everyone a chance to act. Or at least give this possibility, by giving OOC info, timestops, etc. in advance.

As of now, we have to deal with the situation, and I think we can still make an escape and even keep the box. At last resort, we can still relinquish the troll gun and boot out.

Without conflict, tension, danger, etc there is no drama. We got drama in spades now. I think the rest of this scene can be fun...

I just want to be able to post ICly at least once a week. So what can we do to help that along?

Well I'm back, as some of you know from being on IRC last night

Life is still kicking me in the ass with work and the like (we're now short 2 people and trying to train/hire a few more) so I might not be around as much as in the past.

Computer issues seem to be cleared up for now (knock on wood) doesn't seem to be any damage to my happy little laptop.

I am a little frusterated with the current situation, but I've decided that instead of bitching about it I'll offer to do whatever I can to help move things along and keep this "game" moving. We've all put so much effort into making these characters, we've done the "down-time" RP and it's been awesome to see characters develop and change along the way.

If we die, we die. I won't be happy about it, but like y'all have said, it's a part of the game. But if we die because info wasn't given, as opposed to us not looking for it/asking for it/making qualifying rolls for it... that's a bit harder to swallow. Would we be in the same situation that we're in right now if we got the heads up of who it was before the first shot was fired, I guess we'll never know.

I understand how "real life" interrupts gaming, god knows I've been on the end of that more times than I can count, but I really like the group of us that are playing together and the stories that we're creating. Obviously a number of the rest of us do too as evidenced by your posts. If TG becomes overwhelmed "running" this, and others offer to step up (MJ, DR, myself, etc) There is so much we could be doing with this, that it would be a shame to see things come apart at the seams.

Is there somewhere we could start coordinating things if this starts to pick up more "GM's" and what not? I think it could be cool to have discussions amongst those that are gonna pick up some of the duties to overlap plotlines, keep events organized that is "behind the scenes" of everyone so there's elements of surprise and "Oh my @*$(@)$*@)(% god!"

This was always proposed to be a "Work of Collabrative Fiction" and I think a lot of us started relying on TG as "just the GM" which puts a lot of pressure on someone. I know only TG can work the specifics of what's going on at the moment, but the idea of "splitting up the duties" kind of excites me a bit. Maybe (for those that live/continue on with new characters/whatever) we can all "take turns" playing "GM" for a bit coming up with the big plot hooks and suspensful moments that we seem to want.

I also think with the grand display of new colours available to us in the drop down menu that perhaps we mark ALL GM related questions in bold red or something that stands out on the OOC page and ONLY use it for GM related stuff, not stuff to the rest of us. That way if someone who is responsible for the current action only has 15 minutes of time to "catch up" they can address the most "urgent" items first and or go back easier when they can give us the info/answers we're asking for. Because damn, we can be some posty bitches IC and OOC

Dobermans roll defensively:

To address Dranem's points (which are generally good ones):

1) I should have mentioned weaponry. You guys did have plety of chances to do Matrix and astral recon. The results were posted several pages ago and were quite informative if you'd managed enough successes. You also had plenty of time for prep-work if you'd chosen to do anything, but no one really did.

2) The gangers you're fighting are actually about average on stats. Most have average stats for trolls (the cybered up ones have higher than average body). None of them throw more than 9 dice for anything (except for the guy with the AK who is now dead, who had a pool of 13 counting smartlink, but a low body score) except resisting damage. They didn't come with watcher swarms, either, which they really should have. For the moment, their counterspelling is impressive, but the second one of them gets out of LOS of the mage trio, he's a soft target for magic. The majority of them are built on the same rules as you guys, with similar skill ratings and gear allowances. The mages and adepts are probably the closest to 400 point characters in terms of power, but their skills are on par with yours.

On the matrix, they're pretty stout... but any gogang in 2070 has to be. Their network is also fragile if a couple of things happen (like one of the hackers gets taken out). If they were to try to go on the offensive, they'd be no better than you guys.

Also, the Spikes are one of the meanest gangs in town. They regularly tangle with the Ancients, and the Ancients can give just about any shadow team a run for the money on a one-for-one basis. They have good tactics and act a lot like a shadow team because if they didn't they wouldn't be alive any more.

3) I think you've got a mistaken impression about Slam. He likes being a leader, and he can talk an okay game... but he's really not very good at it. To be fair, he had a plan. It didn't involve getting into a firefight with these guys the second they showed up, though. I think you're being a bit harsh since he's had a grand total of 1 second to come up with something else to do.

4) I don't think that's my motivation at all. If I have an ulterior motive in killing people off, it'd be to clean house of a few of the inactive characters and to provide RP opportunities to the survivors. However, I can't even say that is the reason what's going down is going down. I had a situation set up and then the situation changed when someone jumped the gun. Also, I'm allowing free use of the "hand of god" rules to save your butts (active players only).

On the hacking, I really think you're expecting too much too fast. The firewall on the coms is 5. It's simply a matter of hacking them per the normal rules, which takes a few initiative passes (and some luck). If they go hot, then you'll have to deal with the hackers as they protect them, but that's about it.

That said, I do agree that if Aziz hadn't been so quick to post and squeeze the trigger that this would have gone much differently.

Thus, I propose the following:

I narrate the conclusion of the firefight. The Crashers hold out another half second, but then end up running. Slam gets shot and killed next round. The rest of the gang panics and most retreat. Without active resistance, the gangers prove more interested in tracking down the item they're looking for than killing Crashers. Someone manages to escape with the item and goes to ground. During all this a number of Crashers get wacked (inactive players) and the HQ gets trashed a bit. The guy with the item goes to ground and emerges a while later, makes the drop and negotiates quite a bit more cash. The Spikes then have to lay off (though they're still mad) and we pick back up there.

Votes for and against? I like this solution for a number of reasons.

I'm sorta with DR here, but maybe we can combine the two directions. Give us three or four 'phases' to describe what we do. Each person will post four times and for four situations or actions. So we can roll/role play our way through what TG has in mind, and still be contributing our thoughts and goals and dice to the narrative.

To keep things collaborative, everyone should wait for the active posters to post their 'phase action' before moving on to the next phase.

Fer instance:

Phase 1: Scrambling - wherein the besieged 410 scramble to grab the wounded/inert and get the hell out (and in which Slam takes a stand, and most probably a bullet)

Phase 2: Flight - wherein the outnumbered and outgunned 410 take to their bikes and the streets

Phase 3: Hiding Out - everyone hunkers down (RP between teams only to represent the laying low part of hiding out)

Phase 4: Emergence - gang comes out of hiding, surveys the damage, determines if it was worth it and - now leaderless - try to figure out what to do next.

I am fully with ES_Sparky. I´m not a fan of drawn out rolling, so I tend to do battles in this semi-narative style, even in life games.
Still, everyone should have some way to contribute and allso make some abstarct rolls, to keep it dramatic (i.e. 1 bike roll for flight and one stealth roll for hiding, etc.).


Allso, I´d appreciate, not to have Slam (or anyone) auto-killed. Playing out his survival and the concequences for him, would be fun, too. TG should make some secret roll(s) (or just say he did ), unless, of cause Slam is deliberately sacreficing his life, to cover our retreat.

I think, there would still be some (granted, very small) chance, to con the trolls (by pretending we didn´t even know what they wantet from us), if we get to capture one or more of them alive/unconcious, or even by contacting them after the escape. We won´t become friends with them, but we might cause some trouble for a rival gang, this way. Thus I don´t want to have the outcome of the whole scenario dictated.

The phases ES_Sparky proposed, sound good to me, as well, so my vote goes to semi-narative.

I´d propose To handle each Phase, by TG giving a head-post OOC or IC (by describing the start and projecting the most likely next events), declaring the general situation, then have everyone describe thair general cours of action declared OOC or IC (by starting the action and giving some introspection about the plan) then TG askes for one or the other roll and does a general IC about the outcome, then everyone elaborates on their actions IC. Maybe I´m thinking to complicated here, but this seems to be a good cours, to wrap everything up quick and still give everyone a chance, to effect the outcome.

I like the concept of doing it in phases and having everyone describe their activities. However, I think I may have forgotten a little bit of the heart of this "game" in that it's collaborative fiction. I'm leaning toward putting together one big collaborative post on the Wiki with the phases spaced out and then let everyone collaborate on what their character is doing during the events.

I have a feeling that Slam will have to jump into melee to keep the troll adepts from walking all over the gang, and that's probably how he bites it (or maybe not, no one knows for sure that he's dead). However, he buys some time for the others.

Aww... what a gyp....

I for one would like to see the end! We've been here from the beginning.... rather than a get out of jail free card, where we just wash away anything.

Meh... I'm not going to stop the movement though, so if everyone feels that a move-ahead post to scattered is best, then let's do it.

Hey, I'm good with whatever mates
Yea... thats me... easy going whatever suits the pack.

how does a mage with max of 3 magic and 4 spellcasting get 5 hits on stunbolt????????? - rant done... hehe (yes i know it's possible... but hey, what's a gm/player relationship without a couple gripes eh?

edit:

edit 2: i'd also offer my service as freelance rules lawyer/AGM dice ruler.... as in i could write up all the reactive rolls for anything that you have to do... and you just make the rolls and narratives and do the world creation biz...

Heh, I didn't say they were all starting characters, did I? The adepts and mages have magic 5 (which was knowledge attainable through assensing earlier... I think even the low success levels gave you that their magic was higher than yours) which represents 33 karma, which sounds reasonable to me (again considering that this fight wasn't really meant to happen). Their spellcasting was 4, though. 9 dice with 5 hits is just pure luck.

I read them as a troll analog of the guys that handed us the box. There's no way in hell we would have opened fire on those guys, but that meeting was totally different circumstances.

Too bad we can't hand them the box with a grenade rigged to explode.

Or could we...


Also - I'd be fine playing this out at the current pace too, just to see who 'really' survives. It does cheapen the whole point of having rules a little to skate through with narrative. Just my 0.02. Certainly willing to do whatever though.

Well, seeing as the shit is really hitting the fan here would be Felix's action for the next passes.

He'll reintegrate his body, make sure JJ can make to his bike, and run upstairs to meet with CD so she can have the box. If he sees either Auran or Toy, he'll probably freak the hell out and try to pull them in a room so he can try to patch them up.

I'd actually like TinkerGnome to end the fight narratively, because otherwise we're going to be doing this combat for probably a month or two.

Somehow I don't think we'd last that long.

Neither do I, but our deaths would move at the speed of web based combat (e.g, really slowly.)

Oh yeah, also we're going to die. Thats why I vote for the narrative.

Sorry I was gone. I stopped getting DS notifications for some reason.

Lot's of reading and discussion. I had a bunch of stuff to say, but most was moot by the third page.

One thing though. JJ is not in favor of Felix giving the box to CD. No reason too. He can still drive. If CD wants to come along too, that is fine by him since she is part of the group.

Let's not just jump actions again (nods to his bud Az) just becuase someone didn't post sooner.

Well I figure there's a strong rider or group of riders in at least 2 of the groups. Perhaps we should all gather in the gym and then leave and spread out with each rider carrying a "box" and shit like we talked about?

I'm completely indisposed tomorrow, so it'll be Friday before I'm reading/posting again. Over the next day, please feel free to hash out the general outline of what happens to end the firefight. I'll fill in some details and we'll all fill how each character acts, etc.

One thing want to say is that if you feel it dramatically appropriate, you can have your character die during this. New characters made from deceased ones will get a karma bump (not huge, but some).

Hey Everyone,

First off, I want to apologize for my sudden departure from the game. In real life I am a tax accountant, and for the last several months I was absolutely swamped with work during tax season. I could barely keep up with life, let alone Dumpshock.

I did not post a formal withdrawal from the game because I kept saying to myself ‘I’ll catch up, so why drop out? I’ll catch up eventually.’ Unfortunately, eventually never happened, and the next thing I knew, a substantial amount of time had passed.

I admit as well, I fell behind early on and never caught up. Sometimes I’m too much of a perfectionist, and I took too long to finish Shade (even though he was statistically almost done, he only had 4 BP left to spend), particularly his background. I also simply could not keep up with the OOC thread, which absolutely flew past me. I wanted to read all the OOC and IC stuff before trying to return, but I was never able to do so.

However, with tax season over, real life mostly caught up on, and Living in the Shadows (my main forum game) mostly back up to speed, I made a request to Tinkergnome to return to active character status, which he has graciously granted.

I have finished Shade and submitted him to Tinkergnome for review earlier this evening. It was made significantly easier when I remove my perfectionist tendencies and recognize that except for a few small details to fill in, he was mostly complete. After he is approved, I will ask someone for assistance in putting him up on the wiki, since I still suck at that. His background is unchanged, anything added later will be elaboration and filler, but nothing essential. I will hold off on updating his opinions of his fellow gangers until I know who’s still playing consistently and/or not dead after this scene.

With regards to the question of continuity within the storyline, I proposed a solution to Tinkergnome that was accepted. Since the last IC post I had didn’t even have Shade leaving the hideout, it’s a simple matter to say that he never went with the gang to the meet with the Ancients. Why would he not go? He received a call from China Doll’s mom before he left telling him she needed to speak with him right away and that it was an emergency regarding his family.

Long story short, he finds out from China Doll’s mom that his family is dead, and that she is actually his real mom (making China Doll his half-sister, something I had discussed previously with DireRadiant and hope is still ok to integrate), from an affair his father had with her. Of course this is quite earth shattering to Shade for several reasons, (which will be fleshed out more IC as the game goes on) and literally brings his world crashing down around him.

Shade’s subsequent lack of participation (despite his physical presence) in the events up to this fight can be explained by him being in denial and shell shock. However, the fight the gang now currently finds itself in ‘wakes him up’, as he realizes the gang is his true family now, and if he isn’t at his full mental and physical capacity right freaking now, he, and most likely several of his adopted family, will die. No matter what issues he has to think through or deal with later, there’s more important matters at hand, namely survival, both his and that of the gang, which without realizing it, he has grown to care about deeply. Hence he now returns to active player control.

I would like to point to my heavy participation early on in helping set up the gang and the game format as evidence that I do really enjoy the game, that I would like to continue, and that I have something to bring to the table to make the game more enjoyable for all. I am fortunate that Tinkergnome is allowing me to rejoin, and I hope there are no hard feelings on the part of any of my fellow players. If there are, please allow me to offer my sincere apologies once again for my absence and ask forgiveness from everyone who has worked so hard to keep this game going strong, and done a great job of it too, I might add.

Thursday since Tinkergnome is out I will put up some IC posts reflecting Shade’s immediate split second epiphanies, while working on what he will be doing in the next few phases, regardless of how we choose to play out this combat.

On a different note, I have been following the game to reasonable degree this entire time, and I have noted some of the problems that have arisen in the structure, format, and flow of the game, and I believe I have some solutions that may assist us in getting the game to operate more efficiently and effectively. I will post a list of proposed operating changes later tonight or tomorrow.

Please do not take offense at this, I certainly do not wish to be perceived as coming back from an absence and trying to ‘take over’ the game. Rather, I am attempting to use my experience in a similar endeavor (Living in the Shadows) and observations from numerous comments and discussions in this game over the past few months to come up with ways to make the game better for all of us. As always, I submit my proposals for public discussion, and hopefully, eventual general consensus.

Thanks again to everyone (especially Tinkergnome) for being understanding, I really enjoyed watching you all play and I’m definitely looking forward to being back!

All the best,
WinterRat1

To address the immediate situation:

1. I vote that we play through everything turn by turn as normal, but if we move to a 'half-narrative' style, I vote we run everything in separate 'phases' broken out into several 'actions' per phase.

2. Regardless of how we play through it, as soon as Shade hears that Toy is down, he will immediately leave his position to rush to her aid, requesting any of the medically inclined gangers to meet him there.

3. After making sure that Toy is (hopefully) ok, Shade will then attempt to help as many of the other gangers escape as possible, placing priority on those less able to defend themselves, females first, males second (hey, he is chivalrous, even if that is a bit misplaced on the streets). If necessary, he will fight a rearguard-type action to make sure the others have at least a decent chance to escape.

4. He'll escape himself. He's brave, but not stupid.

Welcome back, WinterRat!

Wohoo! WinterRat's back!

Cool, this is great... I would suggest that Nurse would be coming to aid, but soon as Wyrm drops out of VR we're taking off as fast as we can get down to the gym and zip off on her bike...

Once we figure out what's going on I have an IC post pretty much ready to go...

But you are aware, that Toy is on the other side of the street?

Rushing to her aid will mean getting past a rather mean bunch of trolls.

Bye
Thanee

Great...should have read more closely. I still have a lot of catching up to do, unfortunately.

OK, so maybe Shade will have to take a more circumspect route to her, but he is fiercely devoted to her and will risk his life for her. I will have to examine him more closely, but it may be quite reasonable to even say that he loves her, even if he is not in love with her. Now if he can just figure out a way to be her hero without getting himself killed...

Maybe I should vote for the whole 'cinematic' thing after all, since going strictly by the rules might cause me to be out of the game almost as soon as I came back.

Wellcome back
No hard feelings here. Since this is a game where new players will be picked up along the line, I see no problem in people returning after a while. A short note, that you´ll be inactive for a while and intend to come back later, however, would have been nice, especially to know, how to handle the character. I can only suggest this, to everyone, who temporarrily drops out, so the pc doesn´t get droped out permanently and a new one has to be build.

I don´t know, if Toy was out of the HQ or it was decided, she was inside. My last imression was however, that it was ruled she´d still be in the HQ and shooting from one of the windows (probably from the upper level´s offices, next door from Shade, as the other windows are allready quiet crowded). So he might suspect she could be hit, after the Troll with the AK shot in her direction. He will allso know, that Tao-Fighter 1. has a trauma-patch and 2. knows the stabilize spell.
On another note, Auran just droped to the ground besides him. She is only unconcious and could be revived, with one of her Stim-patches, though I guess this is hard to know, without diagnosing her damage, propperly.

I agree completely MK Ultra. I apologized and explained my reasons for not doing so, but frankly, I was wrong and at some point should've at least dropped you all a line to let you know where I was at. Thank you for pointing that out to everyone for future reference. Hopefully no one else will repeat my mistake.

Proposed Changes to the Game Structure

OK, here we go...Apologies in advance for editing errors. This is 10 pages long in word and took me almost 3 hours to write. If any particular part needs clarification, please let me know and I will do my best to clarify. All changes will be made in color for ease of reference when you refer back to it.

Problem: Post Sequences

I have noted that on at least two occasions (Neo’s killing of the prisoner and Aziz firing at the Spikes) issues have arisen in which a particular player read IC thread Post A and replied first, removing all chance for anyone else to respond with their original intent to Post A, as they are now ‘forced’ to respond to Post B by the first player to read and respond to Post A.

We will refer to this problem as one player ‘overrunning’ other players, by moving the action forward to a point in which other players do not have a chance to respond to the original post, when their characters in all likelihood would have been able to act, and it is only the real life timing differences that prevented them from doing so.

The key issue is storyline accuracy and consistency versus story progression. I will examine the possible scenarios under which accuracy and consistency conflict with story progression below.

It is my experience that there are three types of ‘overruning’. The first is when order of actions does not matter. A conversation is typically a good example of this. Perhaps the following exchange occurs between PCs A, B, and C.

A:
-Makes Statements 1, 2, and 3 at Time 0.

B:
-Responds to Statements 1 and 2 at Time 1, and then proceeds to make Statement 4 at Time 2.

A:
-Replies to Statement 4 at Time 2, and moves on to Statement 5 at Time 3.

C:
-Wants to respond to Statement 3, but the conversation has already moved to Time 3, so they jump to Statement 5, even though they wanted to say something about Statements 1 through 4.

This is a simple matter of everyone being willing to cooperate, altering future posts to reflect and take into consideration input that was late in being posted, and being willing to edit past posts (if necessary) to keep the flow smooth and making sense.

The second type of ‘overrunning’ is when the order of actions matter, and multiple PC/NPCs are in a position to impact the outcome through order of actions.

There are two subcategories of this: the first is when everyone is in agreement on the outcome, the second is when one party disagrees with the other.

The best example of this is when Neo killed the hostage. I cannot recall the exact details nor sequence of events, so forgive me if I take a few historical liberties to make my point.

Assuming that Felix (or any of the others) wanted to stop Neo, order of actions matters, they would have the chance in game time to impact the outcome, and there is obviously disagreement in regards to the outcome.

In this situation, IC posts should NOT state an outcome until the OOC procedures have been resolved. Any necessary tests, rolls, etc., should be resolved, and then most likely, the ‘succeeding party’ would post the IC action, with all other parties posting their response to the action. If necessary, previous posts SHOULD BE edited to reflect the results of the OOC procedures.

At no point should RL timing differences dictate the storyline. I believe the rationale for this is fairly obvious, but if it needs to be stated, here it is: even if in RL someone is unable to act (post) as quickly as someone else, the character is still able to act in game time. Hence, that reality should be reflected in what happens (the IC post) as determined by the appropriate process (the OOC procedures).

The third type of overrunning is when order matters, but no other PCs are in a position to affect the outcome. The best example of this is when Aziz shot at the Spikes. While unexpected by some, the fact remains that even if others had managed to post before Aziz fired, in game time the shot would still be fired before anyone could do anything about it.

Order certainly mattered (talking first versus firing first) but even if those desiring to talk had posted first, in game time one action (firing) would supercede the other (talking). No other PCs were in a position to stop Aziz from firing, even if they had posted before him. Therefore, nothing should be changed and the result allowed to stand. While others may wish OOC that the event in question had not occurred, from an in game perspective, events unfolded chronologically in the appropriate order, with no interference from real life timing differences. Unpredictable events and actions are part of the fun of the game, and we don’t want to remove that, especially when they happen within the natural and appropriate flow of game time.

Therefore, I conclude that it is necessary for everyone to be willing to adjust future posts, edit prior posts, and if necessary cease posting when appropriate until the situation is resolved. I submit that it is more important for the story to be accurate and consistency that to continually progress, especially if progression will come at the expense of accuracy and consistency.

I realize that with so many players, it will be difficult at times and necessary for us to communicate extensively, but without posting discipline we run the risk of an erratic storyline that ultimately undermines the structure of the game as a whole by leaving gaps in the story that do not make sense.

Problem: Post Discipline

One problem that has been mentioned several times is players either going too far, or being unsure of how far they are allowed to advance the time. Unlike LITS, where various PCs are acting across the city with little appreciable direct impact on their fellow players, the nature of this game dictates that we need to move along at roughly the same time and pace.

The easiest and most effective solution, in my mind, is for Tinkergnome to set arbitrary limits on how far we can progress. For example, in the Stuffer Shack/Meet with the Ancients split in the timeline, we were all informed not to proceed past X time. That is simple and clear, and I think we’ve all grasped how to follow that.

However, it is not always so clear how far forward players should move, and Tinkergnome may not have a specific time in mind for the next ‘story event’. In that case, I suggest that we should examine the basic nature of our game.

As stated repeatedly, our characters are not professionals. The game is not designed to revolve around jobs or static events, or even dynamic events. The game focus, as I perceive it revolves around people. Their interactions, inner thoughts, goals, dreams, hobbies, interests, even the mundane dreariness of their lives is part of the appeal of a ganger campaign.

Indeed, I would argue that a ganger campaign especially requires a focus on the mundane aspect of their lives. At their core, each of our characters is a nobody in the world of Shadowrun. Their significance is derived from their impact on those in their immediate lives, and without a careful development of that impact, both on the giving and receiving end, the game loses its central point: that each life, no matter how insignificant in the grand scheme of things, is significant to that particular individual, even if it means nothing to everyone around him or her. Without developing that life, we will have no appreciation for it, and no enjoyment of watching it change, develop, and grow.

I think some excellent examples of this are the conflict over Neo’s execution of the prisoner. Many characters’ personalities were more fully developed in that sequence of events. Indeed, I would argue that the OOC discussion alone should have been translated into IC interaction and ran with even farther. I submit it is not only still possible to do so, it probably should be, as some characters were notably and significantly disturbed by it, and it is something that will undoubtedly require further discussion and/or contemplation, for their own sakes if no one else’s.

Another excellent example was the characters shooting pool in the beginning of the game. Nothing of noteworthy significance, but a lot of character development and interaction, and I think it set the stage for later posts, even in subtle ways, such as JJ being the one to hold Felix back when he wanted to stop Neo.

The last example I would like to site was the casual, everyday nature of those interacting in the mechanic shop at the beginning of the game. In every way, it was mundane, everyday interaction. And yet it was significant because the ordinariness of it stood in sharp contrast to the events that immediately followed. Remember, part of the significance of life for the gangers is the ‘excitement’ of being in a gang versus the crushing ennui of mundane, every day life. To fully appreciate the excitement, the ennui must be explored as well.

To conclude, when we do not have a specific limit of where to post up to, I suggest no one should advance the time by more than a few hours at most. Since the everyday events of the gangers lives are of primary importance to developing and advancing the game and its focus, every little reflection, conversation, task, etc. serves to further that purpose, while every ‘gap’ in time detracts from it.

Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that we post boring, useless stuff. In fact, I am sure Tinkergnome will keep the pace moving quick enough that we will have plenty to keep us occupied. However, to ensure we do not run too far ahead of the other players or the game itself, I believe we would be best served focusing on, and playing up, the ‘down time’ of our characters when we have it, which will assist in not only keeping the game pace in line, but position us all to better appreciate the game as it develops.

Problem: One GM for too many players

I believe it is reasonable to say that the current GM to player ratio makes it difficult for Tinkergnome to accurately pay attention to every detail (IC and OOC) by himself. We have had several people volunteer to pick up assistant GM duties, and while I believe that is a good idea, I think it is first necessary to further define the nature of those assistant GM duties.

Due to the unique nature of a game of this size in which all the PCs are tightly woven together, it would be difficult to give any of the assistant GMs any material subjective decision-making authority without running the risk of potential conflict of interest. While I have enough respect for all the people here to not consider that a significant issue in terms of fairness, it is an issue in terms of fun. After all, if the assistant GM(s) know what is coming next, their characters become part PC for their freedom of action, but part NPC for the assistant GM’s need to avoid metagaming, intentional or otherwise. This obviously limits their ability to fully participate as a player, and I would imagine, their fun as well.

The issue then becomes what functions are absolutely essential to leave in the hands of the primary GM (Tinkergnome) and what can be delegated to other GMs?

It is my opinion that all plot and story material should be placed solely in the hands of Tinkergnome, to ensure that all players remain on equal footing with regards to the story. I believe where assistant GMs would be most useful would be various administrative functions, such as keeping a record of the storyline up to date for easy and organized reading (which I believe some are already doing), keeping NPCs, events, dates, places, and so forth straight, creation of locations and further fleshing out and defining our turf, etc.

Of particular relevance would be their assistance in combat. As we are running a canon game, having assistant GMs compiling rolls and relevant information (e.g. initiative order), checking rules, assisting in determining statistical results (e.g. how much damage a PC or NPC takes), and so forth would greatly reduce the amount Tinkergnome needs to keep track of himself.

My proposal is as follows: create several assistant GMs and delegate specific, defined responsibilities to each of those GMs, with their primary responsibility being the area of objective game mechanics. In the area of combat specifically, each assistant GM is assigned to a specific group of players, with one assistant GM in charge of the ‘overall flow’ of battle and responsible for tracking things like initiative order, how much time has passed, when outside parties arrive, etc. More detail to follow.

Problem: Cleaning up the threads

In general, I think we would all benefit from cleaning up the threads slightly. I have the following specific suggestions to enhance general readability and functionality.

1. On every IC post, post the time/date stamp on line 1 in cyan, the current location of the character in orange on line 2, and the character name in orange on line 3. I know we already settled that, but there’s still lapses of consistency that are frequent enough to be noteworthy. Having everything in the same format every time really helps.

2. Absolutely NO OOC material in the IC thread. This includes signatures and especially dice rolls. Simply put, it disrupts the flow to read OOC material/signatures in an IC post, and just clutters things up. There’s no good reason to do so and many good reasons not to. This is just being careful and thorough, and editing your post when you forget. It would help a lot.

3. A MAJOR problem I had when I fell behind was simply getting lost in the OOC thread. I can see why people post OOC information (especially rolls) in the IC thread, because it can easily be lost in the OOC thread, which has swelled monstrously and often grows by leaps and bounds.

I do not believe putting rolls on the wiki is the most efficient thing either, as it forces people to go to an entirely different website just to check if any rolls have occurred.

I suggest the creation of a new OOC thread devoted solely to rolls and objective rules matters. Rules questions, interpretations, OOC discussion, planning, random chatter, etc should still take place in the main OOC thread, but having a thread solely for rolls should help ensure that the rolls are not lost, help separate valuable information into two separate categories, and make it easier to handle OOC procedures that will require more than one roll. The best example of this is…

Problem: Combat

To tie together my suggestion about a separate IC thread solely for rolls and assistant GMs, I propose the following combat procedure:

1. Everyone makes their initiative roll in the Dice Roll OOC thread (hereafter referred to as the DROOC thread), one of the assistant GMs compiles the overall initiative order. Everything then happens in the following order:

2. Everyone posts their actions with the appropriate dice rolls for the first pass in the DROOC as soon as they can. If someone is delayed by more than X time period (perhaps a few days) then the assistant GM or other designated party will make their rolls/action for them.

3. If people wish, they may post their ACTIONS, but not the RESULTS in the IC thread.

4. After everyone has posted, the results of each action are resolved in order, as usual. Resolution at this point happens ONLY in the DROOC thread.

5. As each characters’ turn to be resolved comes up, any appropriate modifiers from the previous turns is implemented.

6. After every character’s action has been resolved in the DROOC thread, each player posts the results of all actions that affected their character in the IC thread. Tinkergnome will have the responsibility of posting the IC results for all NPCs.

7. Repeat the process for any characters who have actions in the second, third, or fourth passes respectively.

8. After no one has any actions left, re-roll initiative and start over.

I realize this will be difficult to process, so allow me to demonstrate with a simple example below.

We will have a sample combat with Shade (with 3 initiative passes), Toy (with 1 pass) and 3 enemy gangers, A (with 2 passes), B (with 1 pass), and C (with 1 pass). Mister Juan will the assistant GM in charge of Shade and Toy, and Dranem will the assistant GM in charge of the ‘overall combat’. The goons are all controlled and played by Tinkergnome.

Step 1: Everyone rolls their initiative in the DROOC thread and Dranem compiles the results in the following order:

Shade – 18
Goon A – 16
Goon B – 14
Toy – 11
Goon C – 9

Step 2: Everyone posts their actions and the appropriate rolls in the DROOC thread.

Shade: Fires at Goon B and gets X hits
Goon A: Fires at Toy and gets Y hits
Goon B: Fires at Shade and gets Z hits
Toy: Dives for cover and fires at Goon A with L hits
Goon C: Fires at Toy and gets M hits

Note that at this time, all rolls have been posted simultaneously, with only modifiers applicable at the time the player rolled. In this example, smart links would count, because the player obviously had it at the time while injury modifiers would not, since nothing has been resolved yet.

Step 3: Everyone posts their actions (but not results) in the IC thread.

Step 4 & 5: Resolution in order would look like this:

Shade: Fired at Goon B and got X hits. Nothing was resolved before Shade’s action, so the action is resolved normally. Assume Goon B is injured and sustains injury modifiers.

Goon A: Fired at Toy and got Y hits. Nothing that impacted Goon A’s roll was resolved before his action, so this action is resolved normally. Note that yes, Toy did fire at Goon A and post her roll already, but because in the initiative order her action would be resolved after Goon A’s there is no effect on Goon A’s action. Assume Toy suffers no injury modifiers.

Goon B: Because Goon B has suffered injury, his original roll is no longer valid. He is still locked into his original action (because it was already posted; rationale explained below), but his original roll is no longer valid. He must re-roll for his action, and gets N hits. Assume Shade suffers injury modifiers. Because this was resolved after Shade’s action, Shade would not suffer the effect of the injury modifiers until the second pass. His actions for the first pass are unaffected.

Toy: Although Goon A went before Toy, his actions had no impact on her roll, so therefore Toy’s original action and roll still stands. Her action is resolved as normal. Assume Goon A suffers no injury modifiers. Goon A will be unaffected for initiative pass two, as normal.

Goon C: No one affected Goon C’s roll. His original action and roll still stand, and because he is last in the pass, the results of his action will not affect anyone in pass one.

Step 6: Post the results in the IC thread. WinterRat1 and Wounded Ronin would post their character’s reactions to their success (or lack thereof) in their actions, as well as their response to the success of others’ actions against them. Note that this second IC post is focused more on results than on the action, since that post was already up. Note as well these posts can be combined, but the two-post option is built in to allow players to post more frequently as well as keep the flow of the game going IC. It is not necessary to post the action and results separately each time, but is recommended for game flow purposes.

Step 7: Repeat the procedure for Shade and Goon A as they are the only ones to have actions in the second initiative pass and again for Shade in the third initiative pass.

Step 8: Return to Step 1 (rolling initiative) and start over.

Analysis of this Procedure (I know it’s not complete, but it’s really late and I’m tired, and I want to get this up. Plus, I’m sure people will see things I didn’t, but I wanted to get some common and easily noticed observations up for initial consideration):

Strengths:

-This procedure keeps everyone posting consistently both DROOC and IC. There is no need to wait in case someone doesn’t post (the assistant GM will act and roll for them), and even if there is a delay of several days waiting for someone, at the minimum, everyone else can still post their action and roll in the DROOC thread and their action in the IC thread. That should help the flow stay strong.

-Simulates the chaos of combat and the fact that everything in a combat turn essentially happens within 3 seconds. It will certainly feel like it with everything happening all at once.

-Keeps the flow of the game going. Note that only Goon B needed to change his roll. Everyone else’s actions and results would be resolved normally, except their rolls and actions are already up for quick resolution. Yes, Goon B is slowed momentarily by needing to re-roll, but it’s virtually guaranteed that at least some characters’ actions will stand as originally posted, thus saving the need to wait for every single character to declare their action, then resolve it, then repeat, all in order and waiting from player to player to player. This will also keep the IC posts flowing quicker and smoother

-Delegates responsibility for resolution among multiple parties, freeing TG to concentrate on the NPCs rolls, resolutions, and IC posts.

-Everything occurs and can be resolved in a clear, reasonably ordered fashion. Yes, some people might post out of order in the DROOC (for example, Wounded Ronin might post before WinterRat1), but since there are only dice rolls in the DROOC, only those involved at that moment should be posting there, and all rolls should still be easy to find, especially compared to the current system.

Weaknesses:

-The inability to adjust your declared action based on who did what before you. This is legitimate, and should be examined in two ways. First, everything is happening so quickly and combat is so chaotic that for the most part, no one should be able to sit back and rationally say, ‘Oh, X did Action A so I will now do Action B’. That’s the way it often happens on tabletop, but we have the opportunity to simulate combat in a very chaotic (and accurate) manner. I think it would good to take advantage of the opportunity. Note that characters can still delay actions.

-People may delay posting in an attempt to see what everyone else is doing before posting their action. Per canon rules, everyone is essentially responding to everyone faster than them anyway. If you are the first person, you must declare and resolve first, unless you choose to delay and interrupt someone else slower. If you are last, you do not declare and resolve until everyone else ahead of you has gone.

Therefore, if I were first, it would be advantageous for me to wait and see what everyone else posts first so that I can react to him or her. Note that that option is always available in some form (through delay action), but this is a ‘superior’ version of delaying action, since I can see what everyone does before posting anything.

Since part of the point of this approach is to remove the need to wait and go person by person through the combat turn, I suggest implementing a mechanism allowing people to change their action on their resolution phase only, perhaps by a Reaction + Intuition roll (being able to recognize the changing situation and being physically able to…react to it, for lack of a better word), with a threshold determined by an assistant GM, taking into account the change in question.

Shooting a gun at Target A versus Target B might require only 1 success (unless Target B is in the opposite direction of A or requiring a similarly difficult adjustment, in which case it might be 2) while changing your action from shooting a gun at Target A to astral projection might require 4. Failure would cause the loss of the character’s action for the pass, to help guard against frivolous use of the option.

As always however, the best safeguard is player integrity, where hopefully no one will deliberately delay posting in an attempt to gain an edge. Also, since Tinkergnome is the GM who will handle all the NPCs, we could just mandate that he won’t post what the NPCs are doing until we all post. In the interests of fairness and smoothness however, I recommend against this. I believe it is best for everyone to simply post as soon as they can, to keep things moving.

Essentially, the tradeoff is the inability to tactically micromanage combat against the gain of a quicker, smoother combat that keeps the flow and progress of the game going and (hopefully) will more accurately simulate combat conditions.

The sheer number of PCs (and thus number of NPCs) dictates that almost any combats will be rather large affairs. The nature of play by post makes it tremendously impractical to wait on what could be as many as 10 or more people to post in order, both OOC and IC. What we have seen is that the OOC side of combat tends to get chaotic, unorganized, and generally out of sync, while the IC side suffers because people are trying to just keep things moving, or posting rolls in the IC thread so they aren’t lost, etc.

In my mind, anything that allows the game to move forward smoother, quicker, and with greater consistency, accuracy, and organization (hopefully this procedure actually achieves all this!) is something we need to strive for. My initial proposal may not achieve this, but I think we really need to do something to move away from the traditional ‘go in order’ process, or else every combat will be bogged down like the Stuffer Shack battle was (which took weeks to resolve completely, and that was a short fight with a lot of disorganization in the various OOC and IC posts).

OK, it is late as heck and I really need to go to bed. I have tossed a lot of ideas out there so please let me know what you think so we can finalize any changes we decided to make and implement them uniformly, so as to help make our game more efficient and effective, and hopefully more fun for everyone.

I just finished reading the whole thing.
And I'll have to say, I agree 100% with everything my good mate WinterRat1 just said. I've got nothing at all to add: the man pretty much said everything

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