@ All

Ok TG mentioned (as an aside), that he´d call for a drivers check, next. So everyone controlling a vehicle in any of the persued groups should probably make a test and put up the result on the wiki.

EDIT:
So far, Vegas allready did so, as well as Silo (don´t know if there was anyone else).

@ Vegas
You still get +2 dice for the bikes Handling, as well as +2 dice for Home Ground. So please roll 4 additionel dice (show these fraggers )

Ok then.

Right, the Karma awards were per week and for anyone who had 'actively participated' in the game during that week.

Bye
Thanee

This should not be taken as offense TinkerGnome, but I have to second Rokur! While you have been doing a great job in setting up this champaign and the Gangtheme, the quantity of your committment waned away the day the IC thread was set up and naturally quality followed. I know, this had been for good rl reasons, and I won´t judge anyone about their time management, still the game dosn´t work this way!
So, planty of help has been offered for the GM and much has allready been given without being asked for, out of necessity.

I hope we get this battle resolved and can return to RPing, while fixing the game. And I hope we will learn from this experiance and use it, to improve the game.

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps a good way to approach the current situation would be as follows.

Let's keep playing the game to the point where all the PCs are back together. It could be at Nurse's clinic, hiding out somewhere, whatever.

Once there, we can roleplay out everything that would need to be addressed as a result of the past few days. Between the deal with the Ancients, the Stuffer Shack fight, Neo's execution of the prisoner, the package we (hopefully) still have, Slam's apparent death, and oh yeah, the fight with the Spikes, among many other things, I would imagine that the resulting IC discussion(s) and subsequent interactions could take us days, maybe even weeks in real life game time to play through.

This is good, that means there'll be lots of role-playing and opportunities to interact. Frankly, I'd argue that the upcoming conversations/interactions among our characters are critical to the feasibility of continuing this game as a ganger campaign. It was understood that we would 'put off' defining the 410 Crash in concrete terms with respect to leadership, structure, traditions, operations, etc. until such time as one of the PCs took over leadership of the gang. That time is now rapidly approaching, and we need to play out all of it in order to really bring the gang to life beyond a vague sense of 'we're a gang'.

Even if Slam survived, the simple fact is that the gang is now at a serious crossroads, and I think it's fair to say our survivability as individuals and as a whole may be at stake. Our characters would definitely take some time to talk a lot of things out, and we need to do that, in order to set the stage for where the 410 Crash goes from here on out, and even more to the point, what the 410 Crash really is as a gang.

From an OOC standpoint, since the need for our characters to discuss and interact will most likely not require much in the way of direct GM involvement, either with respects to storyline advancement or dice rolling, that would be the perfect opportunity to address many of the issues that have been/are being raised.

It is my understanding that many of the issues I brought up before were issues people wanted to discuss and address in more detail, but not at that particular time, since we were in the middle of a fight scene. I thought that was fair and let the matter drop, but since people are now wanting to discuss other issues (in additions to issues previously brought up), I think this would be a good time to do so.

In terms of the game, our characters are similarly at a crossroads, with an upcoming focus on role-playing and the like. I suggest we discuss and resolve all OOC issues while are characters are also resolving their IC issues. That way, we will be able to discuss these OOC issues without disrupting the flow of the game IC.

By that point, hopefully TG will have had a chance to collect himself, and we can all devote our complete attention to the discussions of these issues without worrying about dice rolling and stuff, but we will also be able to keep the game moving through IC role-playing. What do you all think?

That was what I was imagining, so of cause I second Winterrat1´s suggestion.

Still the way to the point, where we are all in one place (or clear of persuite, at least), could still be very long, depending on how we proceed. I don´t know what TinkerGnome intended to do, but basically, this is the same issue, as when the mass battle strated.

Using the regular rules for 'prsuite combat' from SR4, this situation will practically go on at the same pace for at least 3 more rounds (only that one round in CC is 1 minute IC instead of 3 seconds, 3 rounds being the mechanical minimm, to escape, however).

My oppinion on this is clear, I think. I´d hate to spend another month in combat, basically rolling one or two tests a week, instead of playing shadowrun. So I´d vote for a semi-narative or narative solution, again, and with more resolve this time.

If we play out this per regular rules (and I´m afrait this could mean, people droping out of the game over the next month, me possibly being one, but maybe not the first), I at least have to point out, that the rules for escaping a large group are broke, as they assume, one can only escape them all together, not one at a time. IMO the check has to be changed from threshhold increasing by the number of persuers, to loosing a number of persuers equal to net hits.

Tinkergnome - Before any solid discussion of how to keep going can really move forward, I think we need to know a couple things from you:

1. To what extent do you forsee yourself remaining involved in the game/story?

2. What was your original intent in starting this, and how has the game in its current incarnation differed from that?

3. Would you be willing to go with my original suggestion several pages ago and be willing to remain in charge of the story and direction of the game, but delegate all the dice rolling/numbers/rules responsibilities to assistant GMs?

I think the collaborative fiction aspect of it was great, and I really want to see what happens with the gang from here on out. I think all of us (yourself most definitely included) have put too much work into the game to let it die now.

As I stated earlier, I think the primary problem with the sustainability of the game was that there simply was no system set up in the beginning to ensure that everything ran smoothly and efficiently for the number of people and sheer size of this undertaking.

Frankly, I think you were buried under way too many responsibilities as one GM for this many people, but I also submit (from an entirely subjective POV, I realize) that comparatively little of the weight that was on you was storyline based. After all, the story didn't really move very far, through no fault of your own. Personally, I think we're finally at a point where we're really ready to take off. In my mind, I would consider this the 'Prologue', of our saga, if you will.

It looked to me that it was the sheer volume of player requests, dice rolling, rules mechanics, etc. you had to deal with that was the crux of the problem. If we can find a way to deal with that, would you be willing to remain actively involved as the head storyteller/GM?

On a personal note, I don't think this game was a failure at all TG. I had a blast playing it, and I think the premise of the game is sound. The structure needs some overhauling to accomodate the unique nature of the game and its sheer size, but it's nothing that can't be fixed.

I will say that this is really the point where the group needs to decide as well if we're going to let it die. Revising the structure and implementing a solid system will take a lot of work and collaboration, as well as the ability of people to compromise and deal with aspects they don't like. I'm willing to put in the work to keep this game alive and well, but if I'm in the minority, I'm not going to stick around and bail water out of a sinking ship, so to speak.

So in addition to the questions I presented TG in my last post, I'd like to ask, who's willing to stick around and work on making this game stay alive? Consider this a roll call of sorts, if you like.

Thanks Thanee and Rokur for reminding me about the amount of karma. Rokur, thanks for your encouragement. I'm glad you enjoy my posting.

TG, don't sweat it on my account. I, for one, have been having a great time.

I'm around.

heh... I didn't mean to kill the game... or TG... sorry all... if you all don't mind, I'd definitely like to stick, and AGM or co-gm or whatever have you.

BTW, everyone, please dont make IC posts that reach too far into the future, now. I still have a plan, that might at least stop the Spikes from trashing our HQ (or go on to do so) and may get us some revenge at the 669s.

I won´t be abled to lay it out in detail until tomorow night, however, because it´s allready 02:30 in the night over here.

Basically the idea is, to call the Spikes in the HQ and con them to believe, what they are looking for is with the 669s. May sound flat, but might work for some reasons.
So please don´t overrun me. Thanks.

The more I think about it, the more I believe my withdrawl is the right thing. Insofar as the point of the game, it was to weave a story about kids on the streets trying to make a place for themselves and running into trouble. In a lot of ways it worked out and in others it didn't.

Let me share a little on what went right and wrong, in my opinion:

First, the bad:

1. There were simply too many characters. I'd thought to rely on the fact that a lot of the game essentially runs itself to be able to handle it. You'll notice that I required that anything you actually wanted me to read should show up on the OOC thread. Even that wasn't sufficient because of the pace of the OOC thread. Heavier use of the Wiki there at the end helped a whole lot, but it was too late really.
2. Too much combat. The game worked really well, except for combat. Aziz taking a shot wasn't what I'd expected... but I should have expected it. Splitting the group up works a little better, but then you end up with the problem where half of the group is in combat while everyone else is just waiting to post.
3. The characters were too weak but too strong. I allowed a few things I really shouldn't have. Though things went badly early on, the Crash probably could have killed half of the Spikes before getting thrashed, and I'd consider those Spikes almost runner level opposition. I'm not sure if it's even possible to weaken characters farther in SR, but, in a lot of ways, you guys were already too strong.
4. I managed to bore myself. This goes back to the combat. When there was nothing for me to do but log on and do fifty combat rolls, I started to even get bored (I'm sure you guys had it as bad). Just a function of the combat blooming up.
5. Generally being overwhelmed. I got crushed under the magnitude of the work. The truth is that I had the time to keep up, but the amount of effort required was beyond my motivation level. The only solution to this, really, would be to develop a time machine, go back, and make myself not have twins.
6. I didn't provide enough information here and there. This is more of a function of motivation and dedication than anything else.
7. I'm suffering from an equipment problem at home. The "i" key on my keyboard only works about every third strike. That means posting from home is a lot of extra work (even though I'm doing this on that same keyboard right now) and my work time is limited.
8. The offers of help were much appreciated, but I just couldn't figure out how to utilize them. Part of that is probably my inexperience as a large-scale GM, but the situations didn't seem to lend themselves to it.

Now, for some good points:

1. The players were, by and large, pretty amazing and were self-starters.
2. The use of a Wiki is an excellent tool for a thing like this. I think we proved that.
3. The spirit force-force resolution system was handy. If I were to do this again, I'd look into doing something similar for all major combats and not having everyone roll dice for everything. I think I caved a little to player desire by not doing a more narrative combat style, but that probably would have worked better.
4. The story that was being told was pretty damn good. As much pain as it caused, all over, Aziz's action seemed just like something that could have happened had this been real (or, at least, in a movie).
5. I learned a lot of the SR4 rules a little better. I generally like the rules, but I think there are a lot of parts that need a serious revision with a chainsaw.
6. I'm giving it a real ending (for this chapter). I've ended games before, and those are always the best because then no one keeps hoping that it'll wrap up one day.

Some wrapup bits for whoever takes over:

1. You can find the info for the drop on Slam's commlink. The drop is legit.
2. The Spikes were tipped off about you having the package. I didn't have anyone in particular in mind, but there are lots of folks around that could be behind it.
3. The shadowrunners who pick up the gun are being paid to bring down the cops on the Spikes. The gun was used by one of the gang's lietenants to geek a Lone Star captain. He even left prints on it (thus the reason for the plastic). The Ancients didn't hold on to it because they thought it'd be safer to have a third party hide it for a while.
4. The Spikes' trashing of your HQ is mostly a cosmetic thing. Lifestyle costs will pay to replace most of what is broken, but it'll take some work to get the place cleaned up.

Wow, that's a lot. Anyway, I'm always available by email at swordchucks (at) gmail.com if someone needs thoughts on the game, further info, maps, etc. My PM box is full and I probably won't clean it out anytime really soon.

I'll probably keep checking back in for a bit to provide what help I can. Now that I'm not the one responsible for everything, I feel like I can handle it. It's amazing how much of something like this is psychological.

heh.... wanna be a player now TG? hehe.... might bring back your interest a bit.... and Halo struck on a good idea of rotating GMs.... so everyone can be player and GM and story and ideas can stay fresh and GMs can stop feeling so much pressure.

Rotating GM is a kick ass idea!

I'm fine with the rotating GM idea, I think it has lots of potential provided that:

1. We think it through thoroughly before implementing the system. I'm sure you're all sick of hearing that from me, but if we take the time to get it right the first time, from then on out, at worst we'll be facing minor tweaks and adjustments, versus having to massively overhaul the system because we didn't take the time in the beginning to think it through.

2. We install an appropriate system of checks and balances to ensure fair play for all. I'm not even remotely suggesting anyone would abuse the system, but I think it's good procedure to ensure a smooth, fair ship.

I will begin working on some formal suggestions. Offhand, I suggest the following:

1. We rotate 'Story GMs'. One GM should suffice, given the massive character interaction focus this game has. We will need operating parameters for this GM, including (but not limited to) scope, duration, level of opposition, etc.

2. We have a 'GM Staff' to assist the current Story GM with any rules and dice rolls needed. I would suggest the following:
- 2 Hacking GM
- 2 Magic GM
- 2-3 Combat GMs
- 2 Rigging GM
- 1 Misc GM for all other random stuff and to help the other GMs as necessary
- 2 Wiki GMs (to maintain and update the wiki and summarize things as necessary on there. BTW Rokur, I don't hate on the Wiki. After seeing it in action I think our current system for combat we have installed on the wiki is excellent and should be kept with very little changes made)

I suggested two GMs for each category because I'm assuming those who are good at a particular area (such as Hacking) have a high probability of also having a character who needs those rules, so there should be 2 GMs per category to ensure objectivity and separation of responsibilities.

I firmly believe we need a GM staff because of the sheer number of PCs and the unavoidable reality that as a gang, we will have many gang fights/massive brawls with lots of characters in them. We cannot ask 1 GM to take care of all of that or we give them the same problem TG had.

By distributing responsibility as much as possible, we ensure more of a focus on story rather than rules, and we also ensure everyone has a stake in the game. Because we do not have a 'traditional' GM, I think it is important to ensure that the responsibiltity is divided as much as possible to avoid even any possible perceptions of abuse.

If we have a 'Rules GM' staff, all the rotating Story GM needs to focus on is exactly that: the larger story and specific opposition we face, and if necessary they can even call upon the GM staff to make the rolls for said opposition (within the instructions provided by the Story GM, who should of course be responsible for the NPC actions).

The Rules GM staff exists solely to assist with the rules and procedures of the game, since they will still be controlling their PCs, this is necessary to ensure a clear line of separation in their responsibilities. Their function is objective only; all subjective calls are to be made by the current Story GM, again to ensure fairness and separation.

Those are some initial scattered thoughts, I'll wait to see what everyone else says before coming up with a more formal proposal.

PS: Because we will have so many rotating GMs, I strongly suggest we run a strict canon game with NO house rules to ensure continuity.

I'd gladly volunteer for either the Misc. GM position (and helping with tying together plotlines or whatever) and or one of the Wiki GM positions.

I'll admit my rules knowledges (especially in the above specialties) aren't what some of the other players' are.

And I do agree, before we get involved with combat again especially, that we hammer out how this is gonna work for everyone involved and how we're gonna handle future combat because you know it's gonna come up again where EVERYONE is gonna be in the thick of things.

I'd suggest that there be two or three types of position. First is the active story GM. This is simply a person telling an active story (and I don't see why there can't be two people doing it if there are enough players - hell, I don't see why you can't play in a game you're running, but see the third item), rules Gurus who can debate and hash out any house rules as well as any existing rules that need interpretation on (I'd suggest that these positions may not, technically, be GM positions, though if you wanted to tap one or two people as overall rules GMs, that'd probably work), and finally a small group of people on the Story Committee or something similar.

The committee would be responsible for approving storylines (and thus, these folks must be okay with knowing some of what's coming), maintaining reward guidelines (we all liked it when Bob gave everyone a PAC!), and general ensuring that there is plot continuity. There would be something of a heirarchy with GMs being equivalent, gurus being consulting positions, and with the "story committee" being the big head honchos when matters actually come into their realm. Since the story should be decided upon before a GM starts a particular game, they really shouldn't be involved in the day-to-day very much, if at all (aside from as players).

Of course, the above is just a set of suggestions.

Everyone,

I love the IC posting, I think it's been great to start to see some of the aftermath already. I'm still sticking to my opinion that we cannot move the storyline too far forward or it's going to run the risk of being out of sync, but it appears people want to post IC before we've resolved anything OOC.

Here is a compromise suggestion: We're all free to post IC, but no one can go past 24:00:00/00:00:00 of Sunday, April 13. Basically, that gives everyone till midnight to post, which is about a half a day for everyone to lay low, start regrouping, recouperate, collect themselves, deal with the recent trauma, etc. whatever. That should be plenty of time for people to continue posting without affecting the storyline in a material manner.

By 00:00:00 of Monday, April 14, everyone should have made their way to Location X (I'm open to suggestions on what/where Location X is) so the gang can begin discussing and regrouping. How does that sound to everyone?

Thanee, Ronin - At what time do you two want to resume posting IC? Since the three of our characters are together, we should all be in reasonable agreement as to when we begin posting IC. I have a reply in mind but I don't want to overwrite anyone.

Thanee, since your spirit is the one accelerating us and Shade is following Raven, my opinion is that you should make the call as to where we end up and when.

For what it's worth, I think Shade would voice the opinion after about 30-45 minutes or so that we're clear and we should find a place to lay low and let Toy recover.

This is all been great, lot's of fun. Long may it continue.

However amd whomever is set up as rules or story GM doesn't matter so much, except that I recommend whomever is giving the definitive answer make sure it is clearly posted or published. As the game progresses we should be accumulating a full set of interpeted rulings to be used for future rulings.

One major major thing we need to get out of the story GM are the TimeStop points. The "planned events" times need to be clear and posted so we reduce the amount backtracking. If a player is going to generate a "planned event", e.g. by stealing a car, this should be set up ahead of time and posted as a planned event as well. Some sort procedure to notify the Story GM to get your activity included should be done.

I think if the above two things are done the forum game story will go pretty smoothly in the long run. For example if I know there is a planned event I want to be involved in, I can do IC posts as I want in the period leading up to it, but I could be doing OOC rolls to resolve the planned event scene ahead of time, and then when everyone is ready I can post IC for the planned event. The major thing I want to avoid is having to wait too long to post. If I can post 2 or 3 times a week without worrying about timelines and synchronization I would like that.

OK then, I will wait for you.

For purely academic purposes at this point.

Reply is up. Raven, Toy, Wyrm, and possibly Nurse (if Wyrm linked her into the conversation) would all have heard what Shade said, so Thanee, Ronin, Dranem, and Kartijan, feel free to post. Let me know if any of you need anything from me.

Everyone - Can we sound off on whether or not we're in agreement to not post past 00:00:00 on Monday, April 14 please?

Nothing happens. It was an easy to remember, arbitrary time to set as a post limit. We don't have a GM right now to set a 'posting limit', but that doesn't remove the need to set one to prevent anyone from getting too far ahead.

We could make it 23:46:51 on Sunday, April 13 and it would make no difference. I was just trying to take initiative and get a time set for everyone to agree or disagree on.

I think a timestop (let it be sunday to Monday Midnight, I don´t care) is in order. Actually I think there should allways be a timestop of some sort (setting a new one, when the old one is reached and there is no more need to wait).
However, I do not think, this should be the ultimate stop, until we have the whole metagame issues sorted out!
Let´s take the sugested timestop and see, what we do, when we reach it.

There is NO reason to stop the game, once we reach the barriere, even if we still have not sorted out the GMing!
There is eventless downtime in the life of a ganger, sometimes weeks at a time. No need to bog down the game for discussion. We can just keep on doing character interaction, just don´t go raiding the next gang in this time (we are too week to do this crap anyway, at the moment).

In any way, we should not move on further then 2 days too fast, so TG can resolve the drop of the gun (as I understand, he still intended). I think TG did not intend to give us any more trouble from this situation, before the drop, as he sayed he would wrap up this scenario.

Here, here and hear hear!

I (Sparky) made an Assistant GM guise. If you want the password just holler. I figured it'd be good to have a neutral GM persona so that continuity in GM posting won't suffer if 'official' posts need to be edited. There is a corresponding Yahoo mail account to go with this.

I have a bunch of ideas for this as well and will be posting them shortly.

Timestop is fine with me.

Rotating GMs is actually a good idea. It prevents burnout. I'm a big proponent of general GM rotation. It also keeps the players on edge. They don't get so familiar with the GM that they know what he's going to do.

During a discussion with Rokur on IRC, we came to the conclusion that the gang really needs to set up some form of income. We need cred. If we don't get some soon, we're not just going to run out of party drugs... we're going to run out of fuel for the bikes and food for the stomachs.

We've discussed it before: there are many ways for us to make nuyens.

One of the ways that has been discussed many times is to establish a protection racket. To do so, we need to make a list of all the establishement in the neighborhod, and give them a few stats.

1. A threat level: how likely is it for the place to get actually hit by someone else.
2. A cooperation level: how cooperative/reluctant is the owner
3. A revenu level: how much cred do we make when we collect each week or month (said revenu level would be something like Xd6 times A nuyens, or plus.)

Places that don't want to pay will get mysteriously trashed.

Another thing we can do is to start selling drugs. Chemical based stuff, we could even manufacture ourselves. Or we could go to some sources, buy in bulk, and start reselling. We should also start thinking about doing things like home invasions, and break-ins. Car jacking is even a possibility. As is setting up some sort of illegal gambling squats.

And lets not forget street racing.

Another thing we need to figure out:
Who's dead?
Who left the gang?
Who's still in?

Here's what seems to be the roster.

Dead:
-2by4
-Cammy
-Knives
-Steel
-Slam

Left:
-Thyn (maybe an NPC mechanic, but not "in" the gang)
-Electrode (went back to the Ork Underground)

Still In and Kicking:
-0day (NPC)
-Auran
-Aziz
-BronzeWyrm
-China Doll
-Felix "Tag"
-Halo
-JAX
-JJ
-Nurse
-Raven
-Stephen "Shade" Wu
-Tao-Fighter
-Toy Robot

The reason why I didn't list Neo is because Nick hasn't been participating in some time.... so do we still keep Neo around?

There is also the issue of "recruitment". We can either deal with that OOC by filling the gang with NPCs (or plain canon fodder), or by doing a rapid round of recruiting for players on the boards.