It's all about support...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz8EfkS4KK0

Yes, ED=SR. ED is the Fourth World, SR is the Sixth. Our is the Fifth. And certain Great Dragons, like Dunkelzahn/Mountainshadow, Ghostwalker/Icewing, Alamais(e), and others are a proof of that. Oh, and Atlantis was Thera, Bug Spirits were called Invae in ED, and the Tzitzimine are indeed Horrors, and Azzie's Blood Magic is calling them and speeding up the next Long Night. Good thing Dunkelzahn gave us some time...
Our GM (he's GM'ing ED, mostly) once made an SR campaign, which covered the coming of the Horrors. Good thing i've had an old Cold War bunker as a safehouse.

Neraph is referring more to the fact that the publishers in later editions of Shadowrun disassociated the setting with Earthdawn.

Currently SR does NOT equal Earthdawn, as the publishers of both games don't want to step on each others toes.



-k

Still doesn't cover the fact that with gauss rifles and laser weapons the Horrors will be more like the Willies.

RUN! The Mild Annoyances have breached the walls!

hehehe.

Much less Stick-n-Shock rounds.

I've painted the picture of Sauron, the Dark Lord, appearing on the streets of Seattle and launching into a spiel about how he'll overtake the world... and then promptly gets tazed and disrupted.

And here I just figured some cute elf chica and her Emoti-toy would tell him to go home.

That's it. The pornomancer makes them go away.

3011: I am not allowed to have an underbarrel gauss rifle.
3011a: I am not allowed to have an underbarrel heavy laser.

Rubbish. That 'source' is a free 'newspaper' handed to people on major cities. No reliable information there, just ads, open and covert. Plus the ocasional 'aliens ate my sandwich' crap.
And FYI, the polish postal service would kill him in no time. That kind of package would be delayed for a week at the least...

All I can keep thinking about from all this talk of Horrors and lasers is simply this.

*bzzzt* *bzzzzzt* *bzzzzzzzzt*, "Jim you gotta nother battery pack, this mist is gettin' thick tonite" <random menacing Horror howl>
*bzzzzzzzzzzt* "I expected the Long Night to be alot Nightier than this", *bzzzzzzt* "That Dunklzahn was full of shxt man" *bzzzzzt*

Of course, one of the issues with dealing with Horrors is that the minor ones would probably take up using laser weapons as well. The real nasty Named ones were usually more dangerous due to mind influencing abilities than due to their physical prowess.

The magically inept make a lunar colony or 100. Meh. Reach across THAT void you primitive screwheads!

It can be done.

I can see that as a trap for Horrors too. Lure them up there, and suddenly rocket motors ignite slingshotting the orbital pod either out of the solar system or into the Sun.



-k

From what I remember, shooting things into the sun actually takes really absurd delta-v. I'd think shooting them into Jupiter would be more practical.

3012: I will not set off grenades in bell towers.
3013: As a GM, I will not use spirit rules to create Jason Voorhees in game.
3013a: Or any other Horror movie villain, unless I am running a horror campaign.

That doesn't seem right.... But I'm too lazy to look up so I'm behind your "The Horrors Can Have Jupiter" plan.

3014: Under penalty of death, I am no longer allowed to pilot a boat until the insurance companies can add 'Acts of Kitty' onto the AoG clause.

No, its right. You only need a small amount of acceleration to move an object into a higher orbit (because you push it inwards--perpendicular to its existing motion--and slingshot AROUND the sun) where as causing its orbit to deteriorate and fall into the sun requires dropping its orbital speed (which is huge) to near 0. The faster you wish to have the orbit deteriorate the closer you need to move that number to zero and the faster it needs to occur.

its' not disassociated. It's just that Catalyst and Red Brick aren't about to do anything collaborative. Stupid IP split

Red Brick has the 4th world and the 8th world.
Why do they not have the 6th

Okay, but why are you shooting for an orbit of the Sun when you're just pointing the rocket straight at it?

Actually, on the orbiting note - how close does it have to be before the sun's temperature starts to make it all melty?

Orbital momentum.

If you want to hit the sun you need to aim "to the left" in order to counter the velocity the launch point has.



That....depends.

The corona is hot enough to melt fuckanything, but exists at a very low density (you'd have to do convection math).

You'd also have to take into account the Roche limit of the Sun-moon system (which interestingly is inside the sun for a fully solid orbiting body the size/mass of the moon). So assuming that convection didn't "melt" the moon as it passes through the corona then it would enter the upper surface of the sun and break apart (the surface of the sun is only 5000 K, whereas the corona is a few million K).

If the corona does fully liquidize the moon, then it would be torn apart about 600,000 km up from the sun's surface.

Eh, they started pulling away from the idea that SR and ED were the same world way back when it was all still FASA developed. Long before Catalyst or Red Brick even existed.

And the "official" IP split happened before Red Brick, when FanPro/Wizkids got the SR license.



-k

I don't know about anyone else but I love when astrophysics comes into a game.

The Sun and Jupiter are equally practical in the sense that they'd just be really elaborate ways to get rid of Horror constructs and lesser Horrors that would be dumb enough to lured into it. The Nemesis would probably just take his astral shortcut equivalent power off the ship while some other Horrors like the Taint or the Gharmeks don't really have true meat bodies to begin with or else can simply shrug off the loss of a body anyway. The Horrors are rather poorly understood beasties, and no matter how you slice it you'll need more than any one single plan to handle all of them anyway. Just thinking of them as being ill-tempered Spirits is a bad way to size them up given that Shadowrun depicts a low mana cycle world and that even the experts are really divided when it comes to understanding even "typical" Spirits.

I can't help but think that there was a rule in this list earlier about using real life physics in Shadowrun...

3015. No friendly matches with the national team of Asamando. In any sports discipline. Ever.

3016. No longer allowed to play a Troll who can create homemade explosives in his sink, then strap them onto my body and offer the dude who just double-dealed us a "hug". And then survive the resulting explosion. (One of my players in my first time GMing Shadowrun 4)
3017. No longer allowed to have my "Stuffer Shack Manager" character outshoot the former UCAS Marine without magic, power or chrome.
3018. No longer allowed to have my PhysAdept put arrows through an Ares Citymaster.
3019. No longer allowed to have the almost-retired Technomancer write up a will, then have my almost-retired Mage insta-gib any Megacorp CEO and be given all of his shares via forged will.

3020: ACUs are to stay in the Supreme Commander universe. I am not allowed to take advantage of access to nanotechnology, high efficiency energy generators, a high-powered rigger, and the ability to build robots that people can ride in to try and move them out of the aforementioned Supreme Commander universe.
3021: Reinforcements are not the solution to every problem.
3022: No more mortars indoors.
3022a: If I do use a mortar indoors, I shall no longer be surprised when the entire team gets fragged by my ordinance.
3022b: If I somehow manage to find a way to effectively use a mortar indoors, I am no longer allowed to try and have my character fire it on his knee. This did not work for Americans and the Knee Mortar, so it would not work for a runner and a full scale mortar.
3023: Orcs in Shadowrun are not violently green, nor are they descended from plants.
3024: I will no longer attempt to recreate a Gear in Shadowrun. Just because the only thing that keeps me from doing so is the V Engine technology, the GM does not need the image of an entire team of runners using mecha on roller skates to take out a vital objective. It makes him laugh too much, and nothing gets done for an entire session.
3025: Fire + Bar + Mob = Bad Idea

And...edited to remove a double post

I hardly think that the horrors will be easier to destroy with high technology.
In the 90s, one of the books quoted Dunkelzahn counseling another dragon that when the horrors return, the dragons' usual solution of burrowing into the earth and hiding and waiting the horrors out won't work because of the technology that can be brought to bear to find such hiding places.

This implies that there will be nothing preventing the horrors from using our technology.

Don't worry about how hard they are to kill with our lasers and gauss weapons. Worry about them firing lasers and gauss weapons at you.

Hear, hear. I see FAR too many threads assuming the Horrors will be pushovers because we've advanced so much, assuming they haven't done the same.

Is this why the dragons want to try to get to Mars?

3026- My elven ghoul is not allowed to merely narcojet the bounty hunter when he has them at his mercy simply because he has a crush on them.
3026a- And he certainly is not allowed to refer to her horns as "fuck handles".

This post is made of awesome ^_^

And I see far too many threads assuming the Horrors will actually show. I also seem to remember something about the "horrors" only showing up a thousand or two into the mana cycle... if that's the case we've still got 1k+ years in Shadowrun, so unless people would like to also speculate about the tech of earth over a thousand years in the future as well, all the speculation is very premature.

3027: not allowed to do anything that plays on the phobias of other players or their characters... especially the gm.


Gee... who would have known the gm was scared of big scary realistic spiders. Had my decker/rigger buy an old giant spider from an amusement parrk.. and turned it into the nasty combat drone from hell >;3

Look ma! that black widow has chainguns!

3028: No longer allowed to use rating 6 hydraulic jacks to jump on top of soft-top vehicles, as I will fall right through the roof.
3028a: Once inside the vehicle, I may not make a perception check to figure out which occupant has the grenade launcher I want.
3028b: Although I may make an opposed strength test to wrench the grenade launcher from his hands, I may not be a sore loser if I fail.
3028c: Fighting him into such a position that the launcher is facing the front console and jamming his finger down on the trigger is considered being a sore loser.
3028d: Walking away unscathed from the wreckage with the grenade launcher adds too much insult to injury, and I may not complain that he got his blood all over my new toy.

3029 (Similar to the quoted one above)- My 2 and a half year is not allowed to find a spider in our friends' apartment where I run SR, then exclaim "He's tursty!" while showing our host. Who is also deathly afraid of spiders. (I personally found it hilarious, but it would probably rude to give him another heart attack)

3030: My psyco tm is never to host any meetings at one of her disposable hideouts ever again.. period.

just because there were enough failsafes and surprises to make the demo guy ask for brown trousers when she gave the team a run down of them. (well she had to store her explosives somewhere.. and it's not her fault it would level everything in a 500m radius)

I would gently refer you to the Adventure "Harlequin's Back" on that matter (see Spoiler down below)



3031: I am no longer allowed to jump up, and capture low flying Attack Helicopters, simply because the ST gives me ludicrous jumping Tests and I pass them easily.

3032: Fuel air explosives are not party favors
3033: What has been said about drop bear paratroopers goes double for drop bear cavalry. Figuring out how to do it might seem worth it at the time, but the end result of drop bears on bears scared the GM too much
3034: No weaponizing troll porn
3034a: No designing viruses that force commlinks to only go to troll porn sites
3034b: You know what. No more troll porn for non-troll characters, unless it's their fetish. Even then, no talking about it
3035: No more bringing my Shadowrun Duels figures to a game as my miniature. They are action figures and -don't- fit in the one inch squares
3036: Classic rock and classical music are acceptable for listening to during a run. The macarena is not
3037: If the party comes up with an idea that makes the mad bomber smile for more than three minutes, it is to instantly be vetoed. Last time this happened, several major landmarks in the city of Seattle were leveled, Lone Star was called, and it all ended in a THOR shot as the Corprate Council was forced to call an Omega Sanction on the runners
3038: Animals do not make acceptable THOR ammo
3038a: Anything organic does not make acceptable THOR ammo
3038b: As funny as it'd be, a penny does not make acceptable THOR ammo. It'd burn up too quickly on reentry
3039: I am no longer allowed to push forward the development of plasma weapons in Shadowrun
3039a: I am no longer allowed to push forward the development of armored vehicles in Shadowrun
3039b: I am no longer allowed to have massive ground effect vehicles in Shadowrun
3039c: I am no longer allowed to combine the above forbidden things in Shadowrun to make a Hammer's Slammers style tank
3039d: If I do combine the above things, I will discover that a Slammers battletank can't outrun a THOR shot
3040: No more crossing Shadowrun with any superhero game. This goes both ways. Just because I infected a supervillain's computer with kittehs and thwarted his doomsday plan with what ammounts to a cybersushicat, the GM still holds a grudge
3041: No more transporting kittehs across games
3042: No more transporting drop bears across games to ones that don't already have them
3043: No designing characters who are stupid fast, but can survive multiple direct hits from tank main guns with no ill-effects
3044: No more crossing any sort of stream, unless they are meant to be crossed. Bad things always happen when you cross the streams
3045: No more playing Dwarves who love the work of Sir Terry Pratchett
3045a: If I do break this rule, no more six foot tall dwarves
3045b: And no more dwarf coppers
3045c: No more singing "Gold, Gold, Gold, Gold" or the one that goes "Hi Ho"
3045d: No more clang
3045e: And no more hiding the character's true gender behind the beard
3045f: Look, Pratchett and Shadowrun don't mix, is the essence of this list here.
3045g: Hex is not a good basis for a gremlin friendly computer, either. Nor a good basis for an AI
3045h: And using Death as a regular plot tool is kinda scary for the PCs when they've not read any Discworld
3045i: And the Death of Rats is not an adequate replacement for the rat mentor spirit

*Coughs* 3045 I could easily go into the triple letters after the number, if not quading it, so, I'll leave that list open for future Discworld usage.

3046: Spirits do not equal furies. Because spirits do not equal furies, I shall not attempt to make a mystic-adept and call it a furycrafter. I may attempt to reproduce the overall concept, though.
3047: There is no patron or mentor spirit of sharing
3048: Swordplay is acceptable as a form of combat. It -is- not a form of seduction

Since when?

I don't know since when. I suspect my GM's response would be, "Since I bloody well said so."

I don't know... most of my girls love knifeplay.

3049: I will not modify the panther canon to fire troll sized t-shirts.

3049a: Furthermore, I will not modify the panther cannon to fire dwarves or dwarven metavariants.

3050: I will never ever play a mage again...or anyone capable of totally destroying the GM's plans with a flick of their wrist and a thought.


so no more tms, deckers, riggers, mages/shaman... oh well gun bunnehs ho!

destroying the GMs plans with a gunbunny is the easiest one. after all, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like nails...

so when all you have is a gun, everything starts to look like it needs to be shot...

and nothing will destroy your GM's plans faster than that. for example:

GM: "ok, you get a call on your commlink -- "
You: "I shoot it."
GM: "Uhhh... wait, you shoot your commlink?"
You: "Yup. I don't have a commlink, so that clearly wasn't mine. I only have guns."

see? plan destroyed before he can even finish the first sentence.

if you're feeling *really* mean, you can wait until you get to the meeting with mr J before you start shooting things arbitrarily.

"Negotiation test? I don't have that skill. I'll just default to pistols instead."