The book says you have to "rest" but doesn't define what that means.

Realistically, we've been involved in two high-stress life-or-death situations in less than 12 hours and a few of us are going on 24 hours without any sleep. Coming off adrenaline highs (and in some cases, drug crashes), I would think most of us would really need actual shut-eye.

In this case you are pretty much going to HAVE to sleep, or to be honest I almost thing 1 point of stun damage is applicable (if you can accumulate stun damage for sprinting for more than a couple seconds at a time, I think being up for over 24 hours is applicable

I'll put up the transition post shortly

BTW - as far as healing Stun damage:

Grease:

5d6.hits(5)=0, 5d6.hits(5)=2, 5d6.hits(5)=3, 5d6.hits(5)=1, 5d6.hits(5)=1, 5d6.hits(5)=1, 5d6.hits(5)=2, 5d6.hits(5)=1

So he is fully healed after about 3 hours of sleep.

Amy

9d6.hits(5)=1

After one hour her stun damage goes away.

Didn't they clarify that Healing Tests were Extended Tests? I personally think that rule is super dumb, but I figured I would throw it out there...

ETA: I also don't quite remember if I have Stun Damage or not.

Hmmm - I must have missed that.

To me that actually makes more sense, given how the rules used to work.

I.e. in 3e (can't speak to 4e) If you took a deadly wound, you HAD to go to a hospital, and the base healing time was like a month.

If you don't make this an extended test, then a shotgun blast to the face - which does lets say 9 boxes of damage - for a human with a 3 body would be completely healed with no need to ever go to a doctor to treat it in less than a week of bed rest.

It also makes First Aid very important (as well as DocWagon).

For right now, let's leave the rolls stand, and Grease and Amy are healed (Amy would be healed regardless) - but that is something to discuss in future.

The problem is how extended tests work. You're supposed to wait some time before the pool refreshes again. But if the requirement to heal is to rest, what are you doing during the time when you're waiting? I guess more resting? Personally, I think there should be a bit more of a difference between physical and stun as well.

Something like:
Stun = Standard Extended Test, Full Extended Test can be attempted once per 24 hour period. That way stun is going to eventually go away, like it is supposed to, no matter how frail the individual (Granted, critical glitches can still happen), but it is going to take a few days for someone with a weak constitution to recover from a serious stun injury.

Physical = Standard Extended Test, New Extended Test requires trip to medical facility. That way serious physical injury is almost always going to require a trip to the doc, unless you're a hulking troll with insane body and willpower.

This sounds eminently reasonable

Maybe not require a hospital, but maybe instead you can only be healed while tended to by someone with the Medicine skill?

BTW: By our interpretation of quick healer, Amy would have had 2 more dice to heal, right? Not that it matters in the least right now..

That could work, although there are some pretty steep penalties that add up without proper supplies or sterilized conditions. It probably balances out sinc eit would generally require more time to successfully heal outside of a hospital than inside of one.

Amy should get the bonus. I think it was clarified by someone in authority as to be a personal quality, so it applies whenever a roll is made to heal damage you yourself have suffered, whether you're doing the rolling or someone else is.

Yes - you are correct - I should have had you roll 2 extra dice.

As far as the medicine skill - I also think it should matter a little bit about the type of facility, how skilled they are, etc.

Like, I don't want someone with a Medicine skill of 1 to substitute for a hospital, but I also don't necessarily want to make it so that we have a long complicated list of what Medicine skill is required to treat what type of wound.

In 3e, it was like this.

Step 1: Make a Body test to see whether or not the wound would heal naturally, or if you HAD to have medical care. In general, a light or moderate wound (thats between 1 and 5 boxes) most people could roll high enough that they could manage to rest at home and heal it. The base time to heal a light wound was 1 day (1-2 boxes) to heal a moderate wound (3 to 5 boxes) was 10 days.

If you failed the test (which for a Serious or Deadly wound was quite common), it required you to convalesce in a medical facility - 20 days base for a serious wound, and 30 days base for a deadly wound - and the cost was either 500 or 1000 per day.

Mind you, even then, healing from a deadly wound just dropped you to serious, so for a deadly wound it was not uncommon for characters to be out of action for at least a month or two (barring magical healing).

Now, I'm not saying it should be that bad, but that's what I'm used to. I think Jack splits the difference between what it is now and what it was then.

If we want, we should probably look into what "Bullets & Bandages" has on this; since that's a semi-official source.

...Interesting- it doesn't go into it. Just stuff about wounds "continuing to bleed until stabilized" (an optional rule). The example on page 207 of the SR5 core book is pretty clear; it is supposed to be an extended test.

"Full Deck had one hell of a night. Between the IC at the Mitsuhama node his team needed him to hack and the feral AI that decided to jump him on his way home he got pretty beat up. Full Deck took 7 boxes of Stun and 4 boxes of Physical damage during the course of the night. He works remotely, already burned through all the supplies in his medkit, and doesn’t have anyone around to help him recover.

Full Deck has to heal the Stun first so he lays down and takes a nice six-hour nap. He rolls Body 2 + Willpower 4 and gets 6, 5, 4, 3, 3, 2 for 2 hits. That’s 2 boxes of Stun damage healed in the first hour. He keeps making the same roll each hour, subtracting a die each time, and gets 2, 1, 1, and 2 hits over the next four hours. All of his Stun damage is healed up about half an hour into his fifth hour of sleep.

Now that all the Stun is healed, Full Deck can start rolling to heal his Physical injuries. He decides to keep resting at home, lounging around on the couch and ordering takeout. Full Deck rolls (Body 2) x 2 once per day. Over the next four days, his hits are as follows: 1, 0 (glitch), 2, and 0 (critical glitch) hits. The glitch means that one day’s worth of healing actually took two days, so at this point Full Deck has healed 3 boxes of Physical damage in 6 days. The gamemaster
has Full Deck stop rolling so he can determine how badly Full Deck injured himself with that critical glitch. The gamemaster rolls 1D3 and gets 2, adding 2 more boxes of Physical damage and putting Full Deck back up to 3 boxes of Physical damage. Continuing to heal, Full Deck rolls his 4 dice and gets 0, 1 (glitch), 0, 1, 0, 0, and 1 (glitch) hits. With each glitch counting as 2 days, this adds 9 more days to Full Deck’s recuperation. But eventually his body heals, and 15 days after his hell of a night, he’s fully recovered and back on the street."

So! Glitches extend the duration of the extended test, critical glitches can cause damage of their own (I presume twisting the wrong way so your stitches come undone, or somesuch). However, it seems as though the intention is that you can eventually heal fully without medical care (although it's obviously easier if you have someone who knows what they're doing involved).

ETA: Currently, a medicine test just gives you bonus dice to your healing test. Conditions apply here, so someone with a 1 medicine giving you treatment (outside of a combat scenario) may not be able to give you any bonus at all; whereas a bonafide Doctor in a hospital could speed your recovery significantly- Go to the ER, pull your wires and sneak out that night!
ETA2: Each critical glitch counts as a new wound, so I think the intention is that you can roll a new extended test.

I think that example has been pointed out as being in error on the official boards. As an Extended test, the number of dice rolled are supposed to decrease by one per time interval, otherwise it isn't an extended test (not to mention that it is definitively impossible to have 0 successes on a glitch and it not be a critical glitch). I personally favor the interpretation that it shouldn't be treated as a normal Extended Test, but then I think having to sit out long stretches of time to heal makes for a boring game, if a reasonable facsimile of RL.

I agree with that. I also interpret stun damage as, "Get a good night's sleep and it goes away". I'd be fine with a set of rules that indicated that you needed actual medical attention for certain wounds, but I think those would be the ones that you fail to heal with your normal extended test. Bear in mind this is a world with Trolls with enormous bodies; putting a hard number on what constitutes a "serious" vs. "minor" wound is somewhat tied to the Body of the individual.

Since I'm about to update the money list, quick question:

What firearm, type of ammo, and number of rounds did Grease shoot into the wall during our Stinger interrogation? I don't think I ever deducted it.

ETA: Christ, I have 88 left...

Based on the gear on page 42, it would have been regular ammo for his Light Fire (that is what was loaded) - see post#1041.

Desperate runners, narrowly avoiding death and down to their last - exactly how I like my Shadowrun - of course the payday is coming...

Yeah, I just checked it and updated the excel file. I wasn't sure if it was the Lightfire or the America. Either way, I guess it would have been LP Regular ammo. Deducted!

It would have been regular ammo, but I think I had the L36 for that. Not that it matters that much; although the L36 is not suppressed (so shooting into the wall would be scarier!)

ETA: I don't think I have anything else for Grease to do while we wait to hear back from the Johnson, btw.
ETA2: @Lobo: let me know when we need to start worrying about addiction tests; I know Grease took Novacoke the 1st night, and Cram last night. I appreciate not having to make a Willpower test to slot the BTL, btw

Ok - so unless there is an objection, I'm going to jump forward to the next event (which may be all of you waking up from your 8 hour rest to recover your Edge.)

That ok?

With regards to the addiction tests, a full week has to go by in game, so it will probably come at the end of the adventure (depending on how you guys proceed from here).

Fine by me. I think we all had a chance to post stuff we might have wanted to do besides sleeping.

I think we're good. DrZ was on for a bit and didn't post IC, so I think he's good. Actually, I think he said as much OOC.

Also, just to clarify, I've added the healing rules to the first page of the OOC thread, and the way Grease's healing should work is this.


5d6.hits(5)=2

4d6.hits(5)=1

So after 2 hours he has healed 3 boxes.

Now he gets to make a decision, does he want to keep rolling or stop, as his dice pool has dropped to 3. If he continues, he may glitch or critical glitch, and take physical damage.

Assuming he stops, then after a 24 hour period, he can roll again, using his refreshed dice pool of 5 dice.

Does that make sense?

Doesn't he just take more stun damage? I don't see it state the type of damage incurred, so I assumed it was whatever was being healed.

What other methods are there to heal stun damage? Just resting and nothing else?

First Aid can heal stun damage if it is applied within the hour that it is incurred. Does not apply to drain, of course. I don't think there is anything that would prevent it from applying to drug-induced damage, but the intent there may be that you just have to sleep it off.

I believe we discussed this a LONG time ago - (or maybe I discussed it with my PnP group) - but for me a glitch would increase the amount of stun damage, a critical glitch would increase the damage and make it physical damage.

A glitch only increases the time per the rules (in fact, you're still supposed to heal eve if you glitch). Honestly, with glitches in this game merely requiring half, rather than more than half, of the rolled dice coming up 1s, that seems like it will have a major impact on the ability to heal. I don't remember the conversation, TBH.

I see you are correct - it must have been with my PnP group

Ok, so, to rephrase

5d6.hits(5)=2

4d6.hits(5)=1

So after 2 hours he has healed 3 boxes.

Now he gets to make a decision, does he want to keep rolling or stop, as his dice pool has dropped to 3. If he continues, he may glitch or critical glitch, and either take longer to heal that damage OR add additional stun damage.

Assuming he stops, then after a 24 hour period, he can roll again, using his refreshed dice pool of 5 dice.

No problem. Did you want to opine on First Aid and Drug Crash damage? I think per the rules First Aid would work on it, but I'm trying to figure out what one would use to treat someone after a drug crash that wouldn't screw them up even more (like a StimPatch).

Btw, I find it interesting that you rolled 4 dice for Grease, but not 3. You do realize that you have a much greater probability (almost two times higher) to get a glitch rolling 4 dice than 3, right?

Shadowrun math is funny. I think you have a higher chance of rolling a critical glitch on 2d6 than 1d6.

You do, it's the same exact effect we're talking about between 3 and 4 dice.

ETA:
Crit glitch on 1 die: 1/6; Crit glitch on 2 dice: 7/36 (and 4/36 chance to both glitch and get a success)
Glitch (crit or not) on 3 dice: 7.4%; glitch (crit or not) on 4 dice: 13.2%

Does the same thing happen with 5 and 6 dice? I guess it is just a function of having more dice to roll but requiring the same minimum number of 1s.

If you shift it to "more than half" I think it largely eliminates the problem with the main issue being that the chance to glitch is greatly lowered for even numbers of dice compared to the "half" requirement. Of course, I think the chance then ends up being artificially higher with the odd numbers. More likely to glitch on 3d6 than 2d6 for instance. Not sure of a good way to correct for that, I guess you just deal with it (OK, I guess you could set it at, for instance, half and, if the number of dice rolled are even and half come up 1s, roll a D6 and have a glitch occur on a 1,2, or 3).

For, every single odd vs even comparison, yes, at varying levels. At least for glitches, I'm 100% sure. For crit glitch I'd have to check.

ETA: It's easy to reason about why it is so. If I tell you here's 2N-1 dice (odd number of dice), try to roll N or more 1's, compared to me telling you to try to roll the same N or more 1's, but you have 2N dice to do it (one extra die!). Obviously the extra die gives you a higher chance to roll at least N 1's.

Yes - you only have a 1 in 6 chance of a critical glitch on 1d6, but a 2 in 9 chance on 2d6

As far as First Aid, technically speaking per the rules it applies to all damage except Drain.

I agree that I'm not sure what exactly they are doing (especially as it says that you can use it even when your medkit has no supplies), but the healing rules are very vague in general.

If you guys would like - I think now that I have more experience with the system, we can go back to the rules as written and make glitches have to be more than half the number of dice being ones.

I think when I started playing I was perceiving a problem that wasn't really there - or, at least, the solution just creates a different problem

Up to you guys.

With all that in mind, would it be possible to have Grease bug one of the team for an aspirin / first aid check?

I do like the idea of taking physical damage from a critical glitch; I can see his nose start bleeding from the effects of his drug-induced issues..

net net- I need to get Grease some willpower, stat!

If it's a no on first aid; I'd want to stop rolling at 3 and keep my 3 stun damage for the time being.
-DrZ

I think my favorite part is that you are more likely to critical glitch on 2d6 than glitch (7 in 36 vs. 4 in 36)

Jack has a medkit and middling first aid skills. I think we figured out that Overkill is actually better since the rules for defaulting are so in favor of attributes vs. skills.

ETA: I don't know if we've really had any issues with the glitch rules so far. Other than people possibly not volunteering to use skills in fear that they would glitch. Honestly, it seems more realistic that with middling dice that you would have a much higher chance of screwing up than outright failing. If we changed it to more than half, the only time you would glitch on 2D6 would be a critical glitch at (1,1). So I think it is fine as is.

Is the Stadium downtown in the UCAS sector? Does the parking garage appear to be part of the stadium complex or just a garage that has a view of it?

ETA: Even though it hasn't really been that long in game, it feels like I have been carrying these damn fingers around forever. Jack has no idea whether they will do any good (or even if his attempts to preserve them are actually effective), but I find it pretty entertaining.

You could take on a new street name - no longer Jack VII but rather Jack "Troll Fingers"

The stadium is in the Downtown area - the Sioux sector part.

The garage is far enough away that it is near by rather than part of the complex.

Well, it's only one or two troll fingers, the others are from the other dudes we took out with Truck. It's also a little morbid. But hey, may make a bitchin' necklace if Ramirez doesn't want them...


Well, that might be difficult to do much with, unless the garage is in the UCAS sector. Still, possibly good to know, especially since I feel like we had inklings that the drugs might be coming from the Sioux sector.

I thought the RAW was like we play in this game already: at least half the dice are 1's. No?

ETA: I'm a bit confused. Apart from going to talk to Ramirez, what else are we doing right now?

That's how it was in previous editions. In the current rules (p. 45), it states:

The only time that is contradicted, as far as I can tell, is in the Stabilization example.

ETA: We have a few hours before meeting Ramirez. Jack, Overkill, and Amy should probably change since our clothes are still all probably caked with mud and dirt from the Truck ambush. At least, that's Jack's intention.

Wow.. I had missed that this rule was changed, I liked it a lot at half or more, rather than more than half.

Anyway, you're right that Amy needs to change her clothes. I think cheap ones are sold in machines, that would do fine for Amy right now.

I think it has been working pretty okay with how we've been playing it. The only time I see it as a potential problem is with extended tests, but I think that has more to do with how extended tests are treated rather than the glitch rules, given the suggested thresholds in the book. Since we do't use Extended tests all that much (particularly with independent thresholds), I don't think it has been much of an issue.

If you're carrying everything with you in a bag, you should have a few changes of clothes from when you and Overkill went shopping for street clothes for the team, IIRC.

Although I like that a glitch is more likely with 1 die than 2..

-DrZ

I agree that the extended tests can be where it makes the biggest difference. It's not so so bad though. When you stretch the extended test to the limit of your skill-level, you take a small risk (the probabilities of critical glitches never go higher than 7 in 36) that you make it worst instead of better, or that it takes more time to complete, and I don't find that unrealistic or bad mechanics per se. I can see how it can be annoying, but I don't mind it.

Well she's not exactly carrying everything... it's mostly just the gear listed on the character sheet, which isn't much and easily fits in a small bag. Some basic (lifestyle related) stuff she owns is still in her probably compromised apartment, and a few more changes of clothes are probably still at Nick's.

Lol - I didn't think she was carrying spare clothes either

Just an FYI, you are in the driver's seat for now, you let me know what you guys need.

I think to me, the problem is that you even have stretch to your limit to accomplish simple tasks. Consider an Easy Extended task is defined as requiring 6 hits. An average person (Stat 3) who is competent in the skill in question (Skill Rating 3) has a dice pool of 6 with no modifiers. On an extended test, they should conceivably reach or beat the threshold only 50% of the time (2 + 1.7 + 1.3 + 1) without dipping into the dangerous glitch situations that are the land of 1 and 2 dice. Only a 50% success rate for a task for an average, competent person doesn't strike me as Easy. I think my quibble is more with the suggested target thresholds than anything else.

Actual Game Stuff: Jack proposed heading back to the Warrens to change clothes and stuff before the meeting. I can't remember, but I think Stinger basically told us that they don't really have all that much information on us, other than trying to follow-up on what Amy and Overkill did on that second day. I believe it was implied that our residences are clean. I'll go back and look again.

ETA: Here was Stinger's quote about how much they know about us.

My plan is (once we're done at our current motel) is to have Grease drive each person back to their place in turn and wait for them to change. That way we're mostly together before we meet with the Johnson.

On a RL note, I am going out of town for Labor day weekend; I know our posting usually cuts down over the weekend, but I will probably not post much on Monday either. Have a good holiday guys.

-DrZ

I'll actually be working tomorrow (we've got a cyclical inventory we're doing, thanks for scrapping my 3-day Labor Day weekend, employer!), but wasn't really expecting much from this weekend given the holiday.