I was thinking of adding another document for NPCs - so like Argent, Steve at the Stuffer Shack, Shannon Greeley etc.

Any interest in me doing so?

Up to you, man, particularly if it helps you keep track of them. It certainly wouldn't be a bad thing for us to have.

I'll just say that I still want all my perception (and assensing) rolls to be rolled by the GM whenever they are relevant. I think it's much more interesting reacting to results when I don't exactly know where they come from.

This Manuel murder will be a tough one to figure out, I feel.

@Amy,

Your Astral vision shows a neighborhood that is mostly happy and healthy, although there is a faint miasma around the Manuel house. No cameras are visible in the area.

I'm most intrigued by this one. It's the hardest one to tie to the others based on his assignment (Robbery), where he was killed (at home), and where he was assigned (Green Valley Ranch Area).

Yeah, Manuel's murder matched none of the patterns we have seen in the others, whatever connection it has to them should be very revealing to the case as a whole. (If there is a connection at all, the murder may just have coincided with the timeframe of the other murders.)

Also, getting shot through the window of your home like that does scream out "I was taken out by a professional hit," though. I'd be shocked if it wasn't connected in the end.

Off Topic, but I was just going to mention that I have done a lot of "investigating" during my 18+ years of tabletop RPGs, but this is by far the most in-depth murder mystery I have seen to date

@Lobo: I was reviewing your post for Manuel's place, you mentioned a child's bike in the driveway. Is it just sitting out there forgotten, or does it look like the kid is at home? Does the file mention that Manuel had a family?

Are there any adults outside; old ladies gardening, anything like that?

If all else fails, we could just approach the children and ask to see one of their parents. Everyone living in the neighborhood would know about the shooting, gossip mongers move fast. One of the parents may have heard of someone who actually saw the shooting happen

Do we know what time of day the shooting occurred?

@Overkill,

The bike is lying down in the driveway - apart from the fact that it seems to be a boy's bicycle, there is no other indication whether it was left there 5 minutes ago or 5 hours ago.

With regards to whether or not Manuel had a family or what time of day the shooting occurred, all the information in the file is in the dropbox, there is no further information that your character's have that you as players do not.

Right now there are no adults outside, just the 6 or 7 children playing soccer.


@Everyone else, I've put a file in the Dropbox called NPCs and contacts. At some point today I will go through them and put up Connection Ratings. After the adventure is over, some of them may move to your character sheets as contacts, in which case you will generate a Loyalty Rating of 1 for that NPC.

K, is there still furniture in Manuel's house, or other signs it may still be lived in?

Well, the curtains are closed, so you can't see inside, but there are toys in the back yard, along with the swing set. The grass is still cut, so at the very least someone is maintaining the yard.

Oh drek... The widow of a slain officer is not just any other witness, I am gonna talk it over in IC, this could get interesting.

I am going to pull up some fake AR credentials as P.I.s (a program Drave would have used before) for me and Amy to flash to the widow if she is home when we come to the door. They will appear on the touchscreens of our commlinks.

Just an FYI - there isn't really a program that just lets you generate fake credentials.

At best, what you can do on your deck is the equivalent of buying a policeman's badge at a toy store and trying to pass it off as the real thing - only less likely to work.

If for no other reason, this should not work just to maintain play-balance. Fake credentials that are instantaneous, free, and require no skill to create are a little OP.

ETA - if you really want to have the credentials as a PI, then a fake SIN/license would be in order.

ETA (again) - So, after giving it some more thought - and some additional input, I think the best compromise is to have you need to use the Forgery skill to mock up something like this.

So, Forgery + Logic [Mental] with a base time of 1 day.

We can add the modifiers on page 146 when you actually make the test.

Remember that this will not fool an electronic device meant to verify your information.

Whoa, didn't mean to cause such controversy...

What I was thinking was basically just like a blank electronic business card with slots to put in names and contact info, about the technological equivalent to an Excel Spreadsheet. Nothing that would pass detailed verification or inquiry. Wasn't thinking anything THAT special, just something that could be glanced at briefly.

Would it be wise for me to roll forgery without having the skill? I would have eight dice from my Logic, not sure if there are penalties for unskilled rolls. If I would need too many successes perhaps its something I should look for professional assistance.

I really had no intention of this being a big thing, I thought it would be a minor detail to throw in (Again, was thinking spreadsheet, not an elaborate forging program), but I suppose its one of those things I should have considered before the game started.)

P.S. Should we survive this investigation, we should have all these details well worked out before we are standing outside the widow's home...

Not a big controversy - it is something that isn't really covered by the rules, so it needed a little more discussion than just me rolling the dice

The way defaulting works is that some skills cannot be defaulted to, in other words, if you don't have the skill, you can't perform the action. Others can be defaulted to, in which case you roll the appropriate stat only, and suffer a -1 die penalty. So your character, for instance, would roll 7 dice. Bearing in mind that with a base time of 1 day, you are probably going to get 2 or 3 successes, which means it will take about 8 to 12 hours to mock one up.

Then, assuming you succeed, then she gets to make a Perception + Intuition roll, and if she gets as many hits as you did when you created it, she spots it as a fake.

Anything you can just whip up on the spot will end up looking so obviously a forgery that it would be more of a liability than a help.

As an aside, A forger, a la "The Great Escape" would be a cool character. Actually, it would be an even greater contact.

Gotcha, I get what you mean, anything he could do right where he is will just cause more harm than not having an official ID.

Would you like me to just remove the IC section where he pulls the program up?

Perhaps I will contact my own Black Market fence, Muller, and see what some well-forged credentials would cost. I am sure they would be useful over the course of this investigation.

I know, would have been a good choice, I was struggling to think of contacts during chargen, so I just added Chomskey to my contact list. In hindsight that was kind of a waste of my contact points, Amy already had a close relationship with him anyways.

I wish I had taken a laboratory rat, someone we could go to to analyze scientific evidence.

I would say the easiest is just to remove that part of the IC post and figure out who is going to be doing the talking IC - I assume Overkill, but I could be wrong

I'll have to come up with some sort of price list for forgeries. They will vary by type - a forged Mona Lisa will be more than a forged driver's license.

Forged id's will be cheaper than fake SINs since they won't stand up to any electronic verification.

Post amended, we are walking up to the door now, I just left the approach open in case Amy wants to ask Drave anything before they go in.

Good to go and ready to knock whenever Chrome is set to go.

I didn't read the whole conversation.

Just gonna put out there that Amy can make a very realistic fake anything that she has seen before, with magic. Very realistic.

Amy will need to tell Drave about that later; I doubt he would know about that ability in-character. Or that Amy has seen the ones we would need to make.

Unless she brought it up in IC and I could find an example in the Matrix for her to mimic with her spell.

Either way, that will be great for future use.

I agree on all points.

As a reminder on availability:

Available tomorrow morning, in a car tomorrow afternoon. Might be available tomorrow evening.
On site Wednesday (so no availability), available Wednesday evening.
On site Thursday (again, no availability), available Thursday evening.
On site Friday morning, then in a car Friday afternoon. Likely as not, will probably not post Friday evening (due to brain freeze / sleepiness issues).

Apologies for my work schedule getting insane. I will try to post when I am available, please feel free to continue what you're doin' without me! I was significantly less busy when this game started...

-DrZ

Can I get a read on her aura please?

Nice read, Overkill.

The woman is a mundane, no spells on her.

Her aura reads as suspicious, sad, and frightened.

?

Nanny, and I am just kidding with you.

Ahhh I see, lol

Jees what am I, a racist?

I don't know, but I bet you're punctual

Hmmm... would we be be total dicks if Jack and Grease set up an appointment to look at the house and casually convinced her that we could find her husband's murderer for a small fee?

Hmm, I could maybe work with that.

That said, have we figured out our play with Sanders? I was considering going with the "fake undercover" angle..

Amy is casting Control Thoughts at Force 4 with Magic 6 + Spellcasting 6 = 12 dice

12d6.hits(5)=2

Using Edge to reroll unsuccessful dice.

10d6.hits(5)=3

Hitting the limit of 4.

Drain 13 dice

13d6.hits(5)=413d6.hits(5)=4

No drain. She is now sustaining the spell.

Noticing magic allows for a perception roll against a threshold of 2 in this case. Use modifiers as you see fit. If you think this is relevant Amy has Agi 3, Sneaking 2, and urban specialization.

Let's see what effect this will have. It's a new way to conduct investigations

I think that would work best, particularly if we can a) get some fake garbage badges and b) she really seems to want to talk.

Oops I hope I'm not ruining your plot to get to Mrs. Manuel. I used a more.. direct approach.

Holy shit! Too bad you don't have Influence...

Nah, that is actually our plan with Sanders from the Mitchell murder. Although hell, we can probably show up as fake Lone Star to follow up on the felony magic use done to Mrs. Manuel, LOL.

Ok - so quick question before you cast this spell. Not does Mrs. Manuel have the chance of seeing you cast the spell (as you are basically standing right in front of her) - Mental Manipulation spells are very intrusive - from the Missions FAQ:

"There are currently no restrictions on Mental Manipulation spells. That said, characters and gamemasters should be well
aware of how these spells work. Magic is very dangerous in Shadowrun, and everyone is scared of it. When the unusual happens,
magic is the first thing they blame, and most people will react very badly when magic is used against them. And of all the magic
out there, spells that can control and mentally manipulate an individual are the most feared. It’s a violation of the highest order.
Using this kind of magic against friends, allies, and contacts is an incredibly bad idea and will always have some kind of negative
repercussion. Using it against a Mr. Johnson is usually suicidal.
Spells that take direct control on a person’s mind or actions are overt Manipulation spells, and while the spell is active the
controlled person will usually act and react as if all the actions are his own, as soon as the spell is dropped they will immediately
know that they have been violated. These spells currently include Control Thoughts and Mob Mind.
Some spells are subtler, and they simply guide and suggest. These are covert spells, and while they’re more risky to use
since they allow the target some free will and choice, they also won’t always realize that the idea wasn’t their own unless it’s
something wildly out of character. Using Influence to suggest a guard wants to grab some coffee or use the head is normal, but
suggesting they shoot their coworker in the head is likely out of character for him, so he will stop and wonder where that thought
came from. If you’re lucky, he’ll simply disregard it. If not, he’ll blame magic and pull an alarm.
Regardless of whether the Manipulation magic is overt or covert, there’s always the chance that powerful magic will be noticed.
The higher the force of the spell, the more likely it is to be seen. Spellcasting always uses the Perceiving Magic rules (see p. 280, SR5).
Finally, remember that spellcasting leaves a trace. Every magician has a unique magical aura, and they leave a temporary imprint
on astral space whenever they use magic (Astral Signature, see p. 312, SR5). In the hands of a skilled forensic mage, these
imprints can be traced back to their caster."

Now, in some cases, it doesn't matter whether or not the target knows he is being controlled (controlling a guard to shoot another guard or something like that) - but it may be problematic in this particular case.

I am not, despite the fact it may look that way, trying to dissuade you from performing this action. I wanted to make sure that you as a player are aware of the possible ramifications of casting the spell.

It may not be an issue, given what she knows about you (which is virtually nothing).

Just let me know, and I will be happy to roll her resistance test

Felony, shlefony. We're shadowrunners, and I keep some hope that she won't notice it happening

Control thoughts is a pretty subtle spell that done well, the victim won't know it ever happened.

Edit: Oh shit!!!

Ok.. didn't really realise it was that bad. The RAW doesn't give me that impression at all! I should have paid attention to the errata, I haven't looked at them yet.

So all right fine I won't mind rape our friendly witness.. unless she keeps refusing to talk that is

Unnecessary post by me - deleted

Might want to check out Lobo's post above, LOL.

ETA: Fun. mindraping cross-posting going on here.
Yeah, you really want Influence if you want to do it subtly. From what I understand, the distinction between Control Actions and Control Thoughts is that you can use the controlled's Skill ranks to perform actions with Control Thoughts. I think you have to use your own with Control Actions.

I edited the IC post given the new information. I'm going out now, but I'll take a closer look at the whole thing tomorrow morning. I'm not sure I would have taken Control Thoughts given the spell's effect being different from what I imagined. Influence would have been a more logical choice for my character, but we can talk about that tomorrow.

For what it's worth, I would think a Sprawls Scavenger would likely take Influence over Control Thoughts.

@Jack,

The difference between Control Actions and Control Thoughts is:

Control Actions is like using Remote Operation when Rigging - it is like you have a joystick moving the target around.

1) The target acts on your initiative
2) You use your skills instead of the target's
3) It takes a Complex action on your part to make the target take any action. (If you use your Complex Action to make him do a Simple Action, then his other Simple Action is wasted).

Control Thoughts is more like what we consider mind control - and to continue the Rigging comparison, is like Autopilot.

1) You cast the spell. (which takes a complex action, unless you want to reckless spellcast)
2) You then have to take a complex action to give the target a command.
3) The target then acts on his initiative and uses his skills.

@Chrome,

I don't have a problem with you swapping Control Thoughts with Influence.

In that case I will swap, because I really believe that it fits the way I see the character a whole lot better than control thoughts, and I didn't imagine control thoughts the right way before. I have to say that I actually like the way it is set up, and I love the explanation you quoted, which makes so much sense, fits the setting, and is fun and balanced.

For reference the RAW stated this (hence my misconception):
A victim of mental manipulation spell may roll to
notice the magical effect according to the usual rules
for Perceiving Magic (p. 280). Some of the less subtle
mental spells (Control Actions) are pretty obvious, but
more subtle spells (like Control Thoughts) can be pretty
insidious.

I'll leave the scene the way it is, or I can go back and change it back to the exactly the way it was before since the spell Influence fits exactly what I had written, I don't mind either way. But I'm glad my character can have influence rather than control thoughts in the future.

It was an interesting debate to read, too bad I went to bed early. Which happens a lot with an 8-month baby in the house.

It makes perfect sense that people would be creeped out when magic affects their lives, and especially fearful of any magic that could control their very thoughts.

Good idea, but probably best that we hold off using tactics like that until absolutely necessary. Besides Jack and Grease can try again by setting up an appointment to see the house. Once Grease is inside, I have all the faith in the world that he will get some details out of the widow, and probably make her feel like he is doing her a favor in the process.

Ok - so what is up next for Amy and Overkill?

Yeah, what Lobo referenced was Bull's interpretation for Missions in the Missions FAQ. Some of the Missions stuff is indeed errata and has been captured as such. Some of it is specifically for use in Missions games (how availability tests work for example). The part about Control Thoughts is more of a FAQ item than errata from what I recall. But I think its a fair ruling. Otherwise, I don't really see the reason for the Influence spell (Control Thoughts and Influence are both F-1 Drain, the distinction between P and S is kind of meaningless in this case if they did the same thing).

ETA: You know, I gave it a bit more thought and I think RAW is just not really written well. I think when they are talking about subtle and insidious, they're more talking about what it looks like to an outside observer. So, someone watching a security guard under the influence of Control Actions would notice their movements were a bit herky-jerky, while a guard under the influence of Control Thoughts would be as smooth and natural as they normally are.

At this point, I am thinking about asking these kids if any of their parents are home. The file said there was no attempt to search for witnesses, somebody may have seen something, or heard about someone who saw it happen, etc. At the very least we could get a few details, as we don't even know what time of day the shooting occurred.

I would like ask Amy to take the lead on approaching the kids, they would probably feel more comfortable talking to a young woman than an old German guy.

We are also getting to the point where Jack and Grease can start doing stuff - thoughts on anything you need from me?

We don't have Sander's commcode, right? Just her office location, in the CAS?
-DrZ