No joke. I was thinking the best idea might be for everyone to keep their head down so Lynx doesn't really have anything to shoot at... but that ain't happening now, LOL. Maybe Amy will fail her standing up check...

Well this is fun.

Her eyes see red, and her caring instincts turn into rage. She must protect the group at any cost, her own survival meaning nothing to her anymore.

From her prone position, she cannot see her target, so she stands up straight, with anger, (at least she tries to get up, it's Bod+Wil(2) test, -2 for wounds, so 7 dice) and recklessly slings a terrible blast of energy towards her enemy.

If she gets to that point, F8 Clout at Lynx, drain is a whopping 8 Stun... Was the 7 damage she just took physical or stun? If she kills herself and her spirit disappears it's gonna be really hard for you guys and I apologize, but this had to happen at some point

Should be Physical. Modified DV (12) > Modified Armor (10)

I hope Amy doesn't die, I imagine I could probably take Falcon all the way out next action by moving in and shooting him point blank, but Lynx has been kicking our asses.

It's hard for Jack to decide who to focus on. If Amy goes down, Jack's invisibility is also out, so Lynx counters are going to sting. Taking Falcon out is great in that Amy's spirit will give some much needed backup, if only it's still around. Amy's berserk will last 1 combat turn unless she or someone else takes more damage. Honestly, I expect her to fall unconscious before then. Make good use of what's left of your edge Jack

I'm thinking the best idea is probably to shoot Falcon, as much as Amy emphasized how dangerous he was (I need to go back and check the IC to make sure I remember what she said correctly). His spirit hopefully disappears and Amy's can start working on Lynx, presuming she's still up. I'm actually hoping you don't get a lot of hits on your spellcasting test so that the drain stays Stun. If you hit Physical, you very well might be dead (and the spirit would disappear).

ETA: Yup, we definitely talked about it a couple pages back IC, so I don't feel like it's metagaming if I walk up and shoot Falcon instead of going for Lynx.

Ok,

So - Stand up attempt:

7d6.hits(5)=2

Successful

Clout Force 8
12 dice normally, -2 for wounds
10d6.hits(5)=3

Lynx Dodges
React 8, Int 4, Cover 4
16d6.hits(5)=5

No damage,

Amy Resists Drain of 5DV S
13d6.hits(5)=2

So Amy takes 3 boxes of Stun damage.

Now Amy and Jack have to resist 4DV Stun from the CS gas (Grease, Overkill, Falcon and Lynx will have to test next turn).

Jack
6d6.hits(5)=1

So takes 3 boxes of Stun and Disorientation

Amy
5d6.hits(5)=1

So takes 3 boxes of Stun and Disorientation

Jack - are you using Edge on Initiative?

My jacket has two points of Chemical Protection. I'd like those added in and will use Edge to Re-Roll failures, I really don't want disorientation.

From a non-metagamey perspective; would Jack attack Falcon over Lynx? It looked like he got a good shot against Falcon, who went down. I'm just curious which you (as Jack, I guess) would feel would be the larger current threat. Unless having his spirit still fighting is enough for Jack to know he's still awake.

-DrZ

ETA: So the CS gas will harm me even if I'm wearing the mask? In other words, the goggles do nothing?

We talked about it IC while we were planning. Falcon was the highest threat and, assuming Jack glanced over his shoulder after he heard Amy get shot and saw the Earth Elemental still there, I think he would assume that Falcon was still a threat, but I'm willing to shoot at Lynx if that seems like too much of a stretch.

Jack's exact quote was: "I think you're right about Falcon being the most dangerous, but it depends on who is awake. If most of them are asleep, like we hope they are, then I think our primary target is whoever is awake... unless there's a spirit involved, in which case we take Falcon out immediately."

Jack - my bad about the chemical protection

2d6.hits(5)=0

Things are not going your way

Reroll failures
7d6.hits(5)=3

Phew! It had to go your way eventually

So, no damage, and no Disorientation.

At Grease - we discussed this a while back. The gas mask means you only have to resist 4DV and you ignore the Nausea effect of the gas. Lynx, Grease, and Falcon are resisting 8DV and being affected by Nausea and Disorientation. (should they fail to resist.

The goggles - they do nothing!

Jack - any more Edge on Init or no?

RAW, yes. What we decided to do was to split the damage and effects among the two vectors (Contact and Inhalation). Immunity to Inhalation (which we all have) means we ignore half of the damage (down to 4S from 8S) and the Nausea effect. We still have to resist the remaining 4S and, if not resisted fully, suffer from disorientation (-2 to all actions for 10 minutes, although you can use soap & water to clean it off, which is supposed to prematurely end the nausea effect, but we changed it to disorientation to be more in-line with IRL CS gas).

Hooray for no disorientation (this CT)!

Unless we're not okay with Jack still prioritizing Falcon as a threat given the Earth Elemental is still present, I will spend Edge to Seize the Initiative, walk over to Falcon and shoot him with Burst Fire (Simple), then take cover behind the bed (Simple).

Oh... uh... Toxin Resistance Tests are BOD + WIL + Protection, it looks like you only rolled BOD for me. Not sure what you rolled for Amy.

ETA: I guess you included her Bear Shaman benefit. Considering they only exclude Drain from the clause, I guess that's legal. Seems really powerful, but the drawback very much sucks (present circumstances included).

EATA: At least for me, adding up the rolls, I would have still had to use Edge to not take damage, but Amy might resist it all together since she has a relatively high WIL

I believe that Amy has been pretty clear (if not this instant, but back in the planning phase) how powerful and dangerous Falcon is - so I have no problem with him trying to finish him off.

Gotcha- Sometimes the OOC thread is tough to keep up with checking in randomly

@Jack: I was just making a suggestion. IC, I think it's entirely plausible Jack still sees Falcon as a threat. Additionally, that Earth Elemental is going to be a problem if Amy goes down.. I guess I'm saying it's up to you, but from my perspective I'd think you could go either way. Grease *could* make a comment IC to target Lynx since he's a large threat, but I don't think he would, considering there's a monster still in the room being controlled by the Mage.

Jack doesn't deviate from plans, Mr. Seat-of-the-Pants. LOL If I were Awakened, Mountain would be my mentor spirit.

ETA: OK, so yes, Jack will use Edge to Seize the Initiative, walk between the bed and wall, Short BF Falcon hopefully into unconsciousness (he takes a -2 penalty to defend for being prone, FYI), then Take Cover by the bed.

EATA: ...and sorry about the flurry of posts and edits. I am done posting for now. I edited a few of my last comments, so please check them out. I'm going to knock out some work real quick so that we can all get caught up.

Jesus - sorry, work is busy and I am trying to do both at the same time since this is an exciting part of the run.

So, first off, I rolled Jack's Body and got 1 hit. Then I rolled his Chemical Protection of 2 and got 0 hits.

I should also have rolled his Willpower of 3:
3d6.hits(5)=1

Yielding 1 more hit.

This still requires him to reroll using Edge, but since he already got the 3 successes, no need to reroll that - he simply takes no damage and no disorientation.

Amy, however, gets 6 extra dice from her willpower (I rolled 5 dice for her, 3 for body and +2 for her Quality)
6d6.hits(5)=0

However, in this case the gods have continued to rain hate down and the 6 dice yield no extra hits.

Ok, next initiative:

Spirit of Air
2d6+16=25
Lynx
3d6+12=24
Spirit of Earth
2d6+13=21
Overkill (-1 from wounds)
2d6+8=17
Jack
2d6+7=16
Grease
1d6+10=15
Amy (-4 for wounds)
4d6+7=15
Falcon (-3 from wounds)
1d6+5=6


Jack will seize the initiative and act first.

He walks over to the prone Falcon and fires a burst:
Agi 5, Auto 4, Sm 2 - normally he would get a -2 for Falcon being prone, but as Jack is right on top of him, I'll waive that , since he is invisible, +2 superior position
13d6.hits(5)=4

Falcon gets to dodge, 8 dice normally, -2 for burst, -3 for wounds
3d6.hits(5)=0

So, 9DV -2 for ammo, +4 for net hits, yields 11 DV S, -5 AP

He rolls Body +1 for armor
4d6.hits(5)=2

and so takes 9 boxes of Stun. 2 bring him to unconsciousness, and the remaining 7 are converted to 3 boxes of physical damage.

Next up is the Spirit of Air, unaware that the Spirit of Earth is about to go poof! and so it attempts to protect its master again.

Spirit of Air
15d6.hits(5)=6

Spirit of Earth Dodges
13d6.hits(5)=7

It is now Lynx's turn.

Boy - what a decision. On the one hand, he has someone invisible in the room with him, who just took out his mage friend. On the other, he's got a mage throwing major hoodoo his way (although he has managed to dodge most of it) and more of a concern, a great big spirit that he now has to face without Falcon, one he probably can't to much to. I think he has no choice but to take Amy out, and hope his reflexes can save him from the rest of the team's incoming fire.

Where is the rule about defenders being prone providing a penalty to a ranged attack? I absolutely REMEMBER it, but I can't find it anywhere. The only thing I can see is p. 189 on the Defense Modifiers table where it says they get a -2 to defend if they're prone (the don't suffer the penalty from ranged attacks unless the shooter is within 5 meters).

None of it changes the end results, but I know there is a rule you're referencing for that penalty but I can't find it for the life of me. Any ideas?

When it gets around to Grease, I'd like to make a semi-auto burst against Lynx. I think my Light Fire has a Smartlink on it.

I regret not popping some cram before we took the elevator up! That, or having a drone with a gun on it available.
-DrZ

You know, it is funny, but I scoured the book and I can't find it either!

Maybe I'm remembering from a previous edition?

I've noticed a LOT of errata in the most recently updated rulebook that I don't think they ever actually published. For instance, the old Cyberware Scanner Table used to have Threshold for the header of both the Item and Situation Categories, which meant that the MORE cyberware you had, the more difficult it was for the machine to pick it up. I got into an argument about it on the SRT boards. Then they stealth changed it without it appearing in the official errata document and it works as one would expect, the machine now tends to ping when the cyberzombie walks through more often that when the wageslave with the datajack walks through.

Maybe this is one of those? It seems now being prone simply doesn't provide a defense penalty unless the shooter is really close (discounting the fact that dropping prone, willingly or unwillingly, may provide them with full cover if they were behind something before they got dunked).

Ok, so Lynx wants to make sure that Amy goes down, switches back to Semi Auto Burst, and fires:

Normally 15 dice, but -1 for cumulative recoil (1 bullet last IP, 3 bullets this IP, total of 3 RC)
14d6.hits(5)=6

Amy tries to dodge:
normally 12 dice, -4 for wounds
8d6.hits(5)=3

Things look grim for our young shaman....

ETA - Amy would actually have 2 less dice, as it is a Semi Auto Burst, meaning she only has 2 successes...

ETTA - AND due to the Disorientation of the gas, she actually has 2 LESS dice, meaning only 1 success...

"Defender Prone, -2" pg 189 SR5.

Odd that there is a separate section for "defending in combat" that lists modifiers that don't come up in the "situational modifiers" section of combat... I wish I had the job security of whoever edits stuff for Catalyst

ETA: Grease is going to make a terrible step-father.

Uh... not that it matters, but I think the 4 less dice eliminate any successes.

15DV vs. 15 damage resistance dice? She'd need... 8 successes to not die?

Seriously, the editing is pretty bad. If you read the Defender Prone section though, the penalty is applied to the Defender's Defense test. We were looking for the rule that says prone defenders get a benefit against ranged attacks (smaller target area, etc). Can't find it (other than being prone not being a defense penalty if the shooter is more than 5 meters away.

P.S. I think the "Situational Modifiers" table on p. 176 is for ranged attacks. The Melee Modifiers table on p. 187 is for Melee Attacks (with Superior Positioning apparently applying to In-Combat Defender Unaware Situations as well). The Defense Modifiers table on p. 189 applies to any kind of attack, where applicable (for instance, the Prone penalty changes depending on what kind of attack and what distance it occurs).

Now let's see how much damage I take, LOL.

Y'all can thank me for having so much Edge later.

...and if I do go unconscious, please kill this motherfucker. Whew... just checked and Overkill has not one, but two trauma patches.

Raising my edge went from priority 1 to whatever is higher than that. 0? -1?

Ok - so Jack has elected to spend his last point of Edge in a heroic effort to save Amy.

Using the rule from Run and Gun "Protecting the Principle", he takes a -5 Initiative Interrupt Action and gets in between Lynx and Amy.

There is no dodge test in this case, and Jack is left to resist the 15 DV wound with just his Body of 6 and his Armor of 10 (down from 12 after AP)

16d6.hits(5)=5

So he takes 10 points of damage, (nearly knocking him unconscious).

The spirit of Earth vanishes

Overkill, realizing he has to take drastic action, and fires a long burst on his weapon.

Agility 5, Automatics 4, SM 2, he has effectively 5 points of RC so takes a -1 penalty, -1 from wounds.
9d6.hits(5)=4

Lynx defends
12 dice, +4 for cover, -6 for Long Burst
10d6.hits(5)=1

A hit!

He resists:
Body 5, plus only 4 points of armor against 6S, +3 for hits
9d6.hits(5)=3

So he takes 6 boxes of stun - almost knocking him down and reducing his initiative by 5.

Next up would be Jack (except he used his Edge to go first)

That means Grease is next.

Jack - make sure you update the 3 more rounds of S&S for you and 6 more for Overkill.

I have one extra die from Toughness! I know my Positive Qualities rarely come up, but I paid a bunch of karma for that!

Oh, in the IC post, Amy can see Jack since she isn't affected by her own illusions (p.290). You can easily fix it by inserting the word "else" between "no one" and "can see".

ETA: Will update the ammo tracker.

Fun!

That 1 die could make all the difference!

1d6.hits(5)=0

Whoops!

Lol - good catch though - and I will update the IC.

OK, ammo updated.

Overkill has 18 rounds left in his SMG. I've got 34 left in the AR.

Grease fires a Semi-auto Burst at Lynx.

Ag 3, Pistols 4, SM 2, -1 for recoil
8d6.hits(5)=1

Lynx Dodges
12 dice normal, +4 for cover, -1 for 2nd attack, -1 for wounds (he has damage compensators), -1 for being under the effects of the electrical attack, -2 for SAB,
11d6.hits(5)=5

Even in his weakened state he still is hard to hit!

And finally it is again Amy's turn.

I think she has to make another test to see if she continues to go berserk
I know she takes the -4 dice from her wounds, so at best it is 9 dice.
9d6.hits(5)=4

So - even if the -2 for the disorientation applies, that still would only negate 1 more success, so her head remains clear, despite Jack lying on the ground.

Her action?

Jack: subtract 3 rounds of Gel Ammo for a light pistol please.

Ammo Updated.

When Grease gets to go again he'd take aim and fire a single shot, trying to plug the slippery assassin!

Just to update the initiatives for IP 2, after Amy goes this turn:

Spirit of Air 15
Lynx (-1 from wounds) 8
Overkill (-1 from wounds) 7
Grease 5
Amy (-4 for wounds) 5
Jack (-3 from wounds) -2

Damnit, if I had positive initiative I'd get to go first again. There goes that plan... oh well, can't say it was a waste of an Edge to Seize the Initiative given I was able to take out Falcon and do the Protect the Principal thing.

ETA: I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm reading that rationally, right? The irrational way of reading Seize the Initiative is that the player gets to go first in each and every IP of a given CT, regardless of their Initiative. That seems a bit much, right? My reading is that as long as a character's initiative score is positive, they get to go first in the IP. I guess it would also mean that I could take a free action before anyone else moves during this CT since I can always take a Free Action.

I believe the idea is that you always go first in all IPs of a CT. However, if your initiative is 0 or less, you have no Action Phases in that IP, and so even though you go first, all you can do is take a Free Action.

Cool, that was my interpretation too, I just wanted to make sure. 'Cause otherwise it would be AMAZING.

WOW! There is a LOT that's been going on, what with my character almost dying and all. Kudos to Jack who used his amazing knowledge of all the rules that have ever been published to pull out of nowhere the one that could save my own ass!

Amy can definitely see Jack IC, as already pointed out.

The berserk fury is not over, I don't think, given that 1) it's clearly not been a full combat turn yet, and 2) we have to roll for Jack's injury to see if it is extended.

Amy, having few other options to stop Lynx, will again attempt to hit him with a Clout spell, and again at F8, which is kind of nuts I know...

When Jack jumps heroically to save her, she dramatically yells the cliche "Jaaaaack", before slinging her spell. And I just noticed that she rolled 8 on 4d6 for init.. lol.

His alias is as a professional bodyguard so I checked up to see if they ever added suitable bodyguard actions. Luckily, they did, LOL.


Lobo already rolled for me getting injured in Post# 5084 (you passed). As far as the rage being over, I'm not entirely sure how that one works. You went into a rage in the last IP of the last CT, so I'm not sure if the effect ends at the end of that CT or if carries over into another complete CT. Had you been tagged in the very first action of the first IP, it doesn't seem fair that you would have to go through that entire CT plus another one (since the rules don't seem to really recognize individual IPs as incremental measurement). Albeit, if that's the case, Lynx's electrical penalty should carry through the entirety of this CT and the next.

ETA: If we survive this, Resist Pain spells all around are very much warranted, I think.

This is interesting.

You failed your original test last Combat Turn by 1, meaning the berserk rage will last 1 Combat Turn. Let's say you failed it in IP 3 of Combat Turn 2.

There are 3 possibilities.

1) The rage lasts until the end of Combat Turn 2 (which may mean your berserk rage only lasts 1 IP). However, had you gone berserk in IP 1 of Combat turn 2, it might mean several IPs before it is over.
2) The rage begins and ends the following Combat Turn (in this case 3) - this doesn't make sense to me in that it could mean that if you went berserk in IP 1 of Combat Turn 2, it would mean that you wouldn't actually go berserk for several IPs.
3) The rage begins in IP 3 of Combat Turn 2 and lasts until IP 3 of Combat Turn 3. This is possible - the bookkeeping might be a little much.

I'm honestly not sure what the correct answer is - and it is relevant here, depending on what you want to do, as opposed to what you may be forced to do.

If we go with Option#1 above, then your rage began and ended in Combat Turn 2, and since you successfully made your check when Jack was injured, you are no longer berserk, and so you would not HAVE to use Clout at Force 8 (although obviously you could if you wanted to.)

If we go with Option#3 above, then your rage began in IP 3 of last turn, and will last until IP 3 of this turn - meaning you WOULD have to act in a berserk manner.

Option #3 is more consistent, in that the rage will last full Combat Turns, while Option#1 sort of puts it down to luck if you go berserk early or late in the Combat Turn.

The more I type this, the more I think Option#3 is correct.

Thoughts?

I feel like IPs are just too variable. Sure, most people have "permanent" initiative boosts, but several of those can be cancelled by choice or otherwise. If you look at toxins for instance, Immediate Toxins don't take effect until the end of the CT in which they were administered. So a narcoject dart smacking someone on Initiative Count 36 doesn't take effect until the end of the CT, until 4 IPs have passed. If it's triggered at Initiative Count 6, it still doesn't take effect until the end of the CT, albeit in this case within the same IP (technically at the space between the final IP and the beginning of the next CT).

Now, none of the Composure related checks seem to indicate there is a delay, so it truly happens immediately, disregarding those toxin rules.

Personally, I think the answer is that it lasts for X CTs with the CT in which it starts counting as the first, regardless of what IP the effect started. Since they really seem to avoid timing ANYTHING in IPs, I think the only other alternative is that it lasts for X CTs with the CT in which it starts NOT counting for the duration.

Up to you on how to handle it, although if you go with the later, it should apply for any effect that "lasts" 1 CT, such as the electrical element damage penalty Lynx is facing. As I mentioned I prefer the former, but I'm not a big fan of having to track status modifiers for long periods of time.

ETA: I'll put up a thread over on the SRT forums and we can see what everyone else says. They'll probably answer quickly.

Good ideas.

I mean - Option 1 is certainly easier to keep track of.

I will be interested to see what the official forums say.

I'm not strongly leaning either way as to how it should be, I wonder what you'll end up deciding.

If Amy isn't berserk anymore, she will opt for a much more conservative approach and just hide behind the couch as a reflex to stay alive, she'll catch her breath and think about what to do next, probably deciding to get involved in the action again. From a RP point of view, she just almost died and this has never happened to her before, not like this, so hesitating for one phase would be normal.

Well, the SRT forums weren't too helpful. Two answers, one pretty much missing the point of the question, the other went with trying to track the effects across IPs. None of the really knowledgeable people have replied. They're apparently too busy debating MysAd power point costs for the billionth time.

Don't forget the need to talk about how much stolen cars are worth, relative to the rewards of shadowrunning. Or is that just DS?

-DrZ

I didn't weigh in before on the CT thing, but my reading has the effects lasting the remainder of her current combat turn. Initiative passes are a subset of combat turns, but since they're variable they aren't a discrete unit. It makes a lot more sense for it to be 1:1. If Amy had missed her composure test by 2, her rage would last the remainder of her current combat turn, as well as the next one.
Yeah. How do grenades work? That may give some clarity on how delayed actions like this are supposed to be resolved. While it is slightly advantageous to Amy to only have to suffer the effects half or a third of a combat turn, the alternatives (either the the same initiative next CT, or the end of the next CT, or something else in the middle) seem like they're too harsh the other way.

^Pretty much my thoughts as well.

The SR5 initiative sytem does have some odd vagaries to it that create weird artifacts. I see this as somewhat similar to the Interrupt Actions RAW. It's better to get attacked in the first IP of a CT because you probably still have enough initiative to take the interrupt, as opposed to what happened to Amy last CT. Similarly, it seems like it would be better to get hit with a status effect at the end of the CT if it only lasts one CT.

Sometimes beneficial, sometimes not. I feel like it's pretty balanced, with a few weird effects, but moreover easy to track.

ETA: Another alternative I thought of was the Quasi-D&D method. If you get hit by a one CT status effect, it lasts until right before your first action in the following CT. Not as much tracking, but still kind of annoying. It would fix the problem that the method of which I am in favor brings up: namely hitting someone with a 1CT status effect as the last action in a CT would do nothing. << I have to say, thinking it through, I really like this option.