Ok it might still be a tiny bit early for the initiative (my bad), unless the spirit is doing something.

If init is important: Amy uses free action to reply to Jack, continues moving as they were, and delays an action.

LOL, Roleplaying this appropriately on Jack's part is going to hurt... attacking this thing in melee basically exposes you to its Elemental Attack, without the benefit of dodging. Fortunately, without armor, the AP is irrelevant, so I guess that's a plus?

The spirit doesn't immediately attack you, but what you do over the next short period of time is very important. So I almost feel that initiative is important.

So for now, it is:

IP 1
Amy 26 - Speak a few words to Jack (Free action for the IP) and delay
Spirit of Air 23 - no action
Spirit of Fire 18
Overkill 16
Jack 16
Grease 14

At Initiative Score 18, you are still holding your action, correct?

Correct, and for the record, if I can only hold one simple action with a delay, I'd have used the other one to speak, leaving me with a free and a delayed action for the rest of the pass.

It doesn't really work that way. Basically, as I understand it, during an IP you have an Action Phase, and a Free Action. You can take your Free Action at any point during the IP, and you can take your Action Phase at any initiative score equal to or lower than your own (within the IP). Your Action Phase consists of 2 Simple or 1 Complex Action. You can't take a Simple Action now and save one for later.

So, in this case, you've used a Free Action to Speak, and have your Action Phase which you can declare at the beginning of any Initiative Score. Once 18 comes up, and you choose not to declare your Action Phase, the Fire Spirit gets to act, and you still have the option of declaring your Action Phase at 17, or 16, or so on.

Didn't we decide that you can one-way sub a Simple Action for a Free? In other words, use a simple action to take a free action? So it's kind of irrelevant if Amy uses a Free Action to speak on count 26; she could still use a Simple to take any Free Action she wanted to whenever her delay hits.

Oh I got confused about the system. I reread p. 161 and it's actually a lot better than I was thinking. So I've used my free action and I choose to make my action for the pass at a lower initiative (likely right after 18). I got confused but this works great.

Yes - but so we are all clear, you couldn't, for example, use a Free Action on 26, then use a Simple Action in place of a Free Action on 25, and then your other Simple Action at another initiative pass. Both Simple Actions (whether used for Simple or Free) have to be done together.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

In my mind's eye, I (and everyone else on the team) are wearing their gas masks on their heads, pulled up so their faces are showing. Just figured that may be important in a few minutes here (as opposed to having them stored in the cart, for example).

EDIT: Are there sprinklers in the hallway?

-DrZ

I don't have a gas mask, but I figure that's about right.

Did I not buy enough for everyone, or did you basically say you were cool without one?

-DrZ

Yes there are - and apart from Jack, I don't have a problem with you having your masks on, in that you could have put them on on the way up the stairs/elevator.

At 18, the fire spirit.... does nothing.

Your actions?

I think we're all kind of converging on the spirit. I'm not popping my blade until/unless the spirit starts to manifest, so I guess I'm delaying my action as well. If Amy wants to start to try to banish it with her delayed action now that it doesn't seem to have done anything (in other words: probably alerting Falcon), that might be good. I'd keep an eye out for Falcon astrally projecting though.

(P.S. I can't seem to find what type of action that requires. The item description says you can ready a cyber-implant weapon with muscle flex, nerve impulse, or wireless signal. I'm assuming a free action?)

I'll look in the book - but unless I find out otherwise, we will call it a free action.

I will wait to hear from Chrome and Dr. Z before moving on to IP 2

I don't need one, so we skipped on buying a fourth. Saved 200+

I will send a message to Overkill as part of my action (I'm not sure where we landed on where that constitutes on the action spectrum, but there's nothing else I'd like to do this turn other than continue walking down the hall).

-DrZ

EDIT: Since I posted IC last, I'll just edit my current post to reflect my message.

EDIT2: I have been sending messages IC directly to people, but I am presuming there's a "BCC" function going on to the rest of the team (if that makes sense). If I ever actually want to send a private message, I'll just PM the player. Make sense?

Sending a message using a DNI is a Free Action. If you are like Jack and have to physically type it out on your commlink, then it is a Simple Action.

That makes sense. Alternatively, if you are messaging Jack, but want the team to know, I would do this. <<@Team [Grease] Jack, blah, blah, blah.>>

This way Jack knows you are talking to him, and we are all aware that everyone else gets it.

But either way is fine with me.

With his Control Rig, Grease should never have to type anything out, unless he's doing it for effect.

I was mostly doing it for effect. I suppose I can be more subtle going forward

I was just responding to Lobo. Grease's CR gives him a DNI, so he can do all that stuff mentally. I figured as our Master Thespian, Grease would be the one to pretend to use his commlink even if he didn't need to do so. Lull the spirit into a false sense of security...

ETA: I did a quick scan through the books and noticed something. At least RAW, per the Spirit-Summoner Link section, it seems that banishing a spirit doesn't necessarily notify the summoner of the spirit's departure, just disrupting it (the book articulates that there is a difference between the two in the Banishing section). I posted a question in the Rules section of the SRT forums to see people's opinions of this. It would actually give banishing some relevance (as most people just ignore it in favor of face-melting spirits instead) and provide a way to eliminate a spirit without raising the alarm. Just thought I would drop that reference here.

Just an FYI, I'll pretty much be out of the office from 1 CDT until work gets out. Lots of meetings and stuff going on today.

I've re-read the stuff on banishing vs disrupting, and here is my take on it.

Banishing is not the same as disrupting in that:

1) It is not as unpleasant to the spirit (this is a fluff sort of thing - not sure how often this will actually come up)
2) If you disrupt a spirit, it is gone, forced back to its plane. If you banish a spirit, you are releasing it from the summoners control, and not forcing it back to its home plane, in fact, you have a chance to actually perform a summoning test to try and get the spirit to owe services to you.

I think the important thing is that in either way, the link is severed, and the summoner would feel the loss of the link.

Yeah, I'm not vehemently arguing it one way or the other. I certainly wouldn't put much faith on the exactness of the words used by the writers given everything else that appears in the book. But I could see them distinguishing between the two. When a spirit is disrupted, its mentioned as being painful/agonizing (you would earn a spirit index bump for doing that rather than banishing if the rules from SG are employed). So, I could see disruption sending a painful/agonizing flash through the link that a summoner isn't going to miss. At the same time, I could see banishing just making the link disappear with the summoner not necessarily knowing until/unless they tried to contact the spirit. Kind of like talking on a cellphone for a while before realizing the call was disconnected. The passage doesn't really read all that well one way or the other (since they bothered using the exact term of disrupting rather than including both disrupting and banishing).

I have no problem with the prevailing interpretation, I just figured it actually gave someone a chance of achieving anything approaching stealth around a spirit without having to both surprise and one-shot the thing and gave a reason for people to attempt banishing over a magical attack of some kind.

It is an interesting question.

I mean, from the perspective of what it should be, I think it is clear that banishing should alert the summoner.

However, as you point out, I think it offers an interesting alternative to attacking the spirit. On the other hand, one of the advantages of banishing is evidenced in the example of Amy's spirit right now.

In order to actually hurt the spirit with a spell, let's say a Manabolt, you are talking a spellcasting pool of lets say 14 to 18 dice for most mages, against the spirit's defenses, which will be 12 dice. Assuming average die-rolling, you are looking at a couple of points of damage at best.

If you switch to an indirect spell, then you have that same 14-18 dice pool, but now it gets to dodge, which at Force 6 gives it a lot of dice, and then it gets to resist, again - probably only damaging the spirit.

Banishing on the other hand, since it only has 1 service, a single net hit gets rid of the spirit, and your odds of doing that in a single roll aren't that bad, assuming you have the right skill set.

So, maybe I'm wrong, but just as direct spells are great against incredibly armored opponents, banishing works well against high force spirits where the odds of the enemy summoner having many successes on them are low.

Now, if you run across a bound spirit, that is more problematic, and of course you never know exactly how many services the enemy spirit has - so it is a little dicey.

It still is an interesting question with regards to balancing spirits.

What do you think Chrome and Dr. Z?

Ok so Amy's actions might change depending on what the effects of banishing would be.

If to banish definitely sends some kind of message to the summoner, she will just converse with the others this pass. If it doesn't alert anyone immediately, then she would maybe attempt a banishment. Thing is, that spirit is clearly guarding that door. Its orders are probably either to engage eventual trespassers, to alert the summoner about potential threats, or both. So banishing would still be quite risky, given that failing to fully banish the spirit would still probably alert the summoner and/or start a fight.

Am I getting this right?

ETA: Hadn't read your post on this new page, reading now.

I see what you did there!

Fluff-wise, I agree with Jack, the cell phone conversation analogy appeals to me greatly.

Balance-wise, I agree with you (though it doesn't make a huge balancing difference either way) and have no problem with it.

Right now in game, the spirit might already consider that our presence is reason enough to alert his master. Amy has no way to tell if we should act immediately or keep being leisurely about it. Maybe she should just call her spirit up and tell the group that the plan is starting immediately, and try to banish the spirit at the top of the next pass. Has the door been hacked already?

You are correct - in character Amy has no way of knowing whether or not the spirit has already alerted Falcon or is still waiting for them to meet some requirement before he does so.

I don't have a problem either way as to whether or not banishing a spirit alerts the summoner, it is just whatever we choose will be the way it is going forward, and obviously affects PC summoned spirits as well as NPC.

I'm totally fine with a simple vote - there are 3 players so we can't get a tie, and I'm fine with majority rules on this one. Simply vote for "Banishing does NOT alert the summoner" or "Banishing DOES alert the summoner."

As far as the door, no it hasn't been hacked yet, Overkill didn't want to unlock it and potentially alert someone before you got close. It will only take a complex action for him to unlock it.

I think Banishing a Spirit would alert the summoner, with the understanding that there is a direct mental "link", and any disruption of that link is noticeable.

One thing I am not sure on- if Falcon is sleeping, does the removal of that bond immediately wake him? Should there be a difference when the spirit is disrupted vs. banished? Looking at this both ways, I could see why we'd want that to be the case as players, but that feels particularly powerful as a guard dog.

All that said, unless they're waiting on the other side of the door with guns drawn, we're going to get SOME level of drop on them (knock on wood).

I think we should go with banishing DOES alert the summoner, for simplicity and balance.

In that case, I fail to see any difference at all between disrupting and banishing, from the summoner's point of view (apart from the fact that a banished spirit can switch sides). I don't think that's a problem either.

And I also think that if you're sleeping, that's not going to be enough to wake you up. Just like you wouldn't notice that a ward was crossed. I see the alert as being an absence of something that was there (you lose the link), so if I'd say some kind of attention test would be needed if you're concentrated or heavily distracted when the link disappears (whether through disruption or banishment), all that imo.

And in the game.. I dunno.. Amy is very reactive and impulsive, she might be tempted to get the show on the road as fast as possible, just to make sure we get the drop on them.

Even though I brought it up (and still think spirits are a little OP), I did say I was fine playing it the way most people seem to interpret it. I'm not exactly sure if sleeping versus awake should matter, to be honest. The rules certainly don't say anything about it one way or the other. Personally, I tend to weigh in on less house rules versus more. I usually avoid games with lots of house rules, TBH.

Ok - the people have spoken

No house rule, if you banish the spirit, it breaks the link with the summoner alerting him/her just as if you had disrupted the spirit.

That being the case, Then I do need to know your actions. Do you just all move up to the door, have Jack and Amy pull out their armor from the cart, and Overkill hack the door lock?

Is Amy banishing the spirit?

It is currently Amy's action, unless she wants to delay it past Jack, Grease, and Overkill.

Follow-up question: IIRC in previous editions, killing/knocking a summoner unconscious freed unbound spirits under their control. Is that still the case? I can't find anything solid in the book one way or the other. I may also be confusing this with D&D.

But yeah, Jack keeps walking up to the cart. The first thing he is putting his hands on is the CS grenade. If the spirit hasn't materialized, Jack will tell Overkill to unlock the door (the one advantage we have over the spirit right now is that it can't hear us).

Since it's all quite time-sensitive, I'll just post actions.

Amy communicates (simple) and calls her spirit (simple).

To the spirit: Now, behind the fire spirit.

To the team: <<@Team [Amy's subvocal] We move now: hack the door, throw the grenade.>>

And she also walks into position near the door.

Amy will get to act before the spirit next pass, at which point she will most likely attempt to banish it.

So, another important thing as far as timing.

1) Who is pushing the cart? Overkill or Grease? Overkill is faster than Grease is, and so if they want to keep together they need to walk at Grease's pace (meaning they will reach the door next Combat turn), or Overkill has to leave Grease behind, or Grease has to run.
2) Similar sort of question for Amy and Jack. Amy can't reach the door this turn without running - not that she necessarily has to reach it, but just throwing it out there, while Jack can reach the door at a walking pace.

In answer to your question Jack, in previous editions it clearly said that if the summoner was knocked unconscious or killed, the spirits went free. I'm not sure about this edition, let me double check.

ETA - Street Grimoire page 184

"However, like any “truth” about spirits, there are still exceptions.
A spirit can still attempt to break free when its
conjurer is knocked out or killed. When a spirit departs in
this way, the spirit is technically in breach of contract but
suffers no ill effects. To some this supports the theory
that a spirit is simply a manifestation of the conjurer’s
consciousness, while others say it shows that the conjurer’s
consciousness exerts some degree of control on the
spirit; when the consciousness is gone, so is the control.
And the spirit."

It doesn't actually quantify the rules there, but later on in the book (page 202) it talks about when an Ally spirit tries to break free:

"When an ally attempts to break free, it makes a Force
x 2 [Force] test against the magician’s Binding + Magic
[Mental]. If the spirit generates any net hits, it goes free
and may become a free spirit (gamemaster’s discretion)."

So, I assume the procedure would be the same?

Yeah, no idea, LOL. I just checked my old SR4 (not A) book and it didn't really mention it either, as far as I could tell. I think it did mention what happened when a mage knocked themselves out from summoning drain.

I like that first paragraph about it though, it makes the most sense. I think it's probably easier for a bound/summoned spirit to break free than an ally (where there's a contract and all that stuff involved). I think I'd go with summoned, unbound spirits jet. For bound spirits... I guess the Ally rules probably apply pretty well (I would think the Magician might get a bonus to their dice pool to keep an Ally around). I do think it's a little weird that it's [Mental] limit. I think it should be [Astral], favoring neither the shamanic nor hermetic traditions.

Game wise: Jack is going to outpace Amy and, depending on speed, may very well pass the door and intercept the cart. He's treating it like a mortal enemy and figures it will target the largest group. Based on the previously mentioned distances, I think he'll be right in front of the door at the end of this CT. If the spirit manifests, he will pull up short.

I went back to 3e, and it states that if the summoner is knocked unconscious or killed, the spirit (or elemental) departs - so no test is needed. I think we can stick with bound spirits have to break free similar to Ally spirits.

Agreed with the Astral limit instead of Mental - unless they are trying to say that Shamans are less able to keep control of their spirits. (probably not, probably a typo).

Amy 26 - Speak a few words to Jack (Free action for the IP) and delay
Spirit of Air 23 - no action
Spirit of Fire 18 - no discernible action
Amy 17 - Walk 18 feet Give Spirit Order and communicate with team
Overkill 16 - Walk 18 feet and Hack on the Fly
Jack 16 - Walk 30 feet
Grease 14 ???

Knowing Grease, I imagine he's following Overkill (specifically behind Overkill)

Is the Roto-Drone even here?

Not that I'm aware of.

Grease has his Microskimmer and both Fly Spys

I plan once the door is open to toss a fly-spy in there to give us a lay of the land. I would try to quickly have it shoot under a nearby piece of furniture so it'd be difficult to get to. I'd have out my Ares Light Fire once the grenade is thrown.

The rotodrone is still outside. I figured it would be nearby, but not close enough to be detected. I didn't think it would be wise to try to bring it indoors.

-DrZ

Ok - good to know. What, if anything, is Grease doing on his action? Are you walking 18 feet of the 30 toward the door, or running to reach the door? (while pushing the cart in both instances).

I would keep pace with the rest of the team. If they're running, I'm running. Otherwise, I'm trying not to spook the spirit I can't see

Amy 26 - Speak a few words to Jack (Free action for the IP) and delay
Spirit of Air 23 - no action
Spirit of Fire 18 - no discernible action
Amy 17 - Walk 18 feet Give Spirit Order and communicate with team
Overkill 16 - Walk 18 feet and Hack on the Fly
Jack 16 - Walk 30 feet
Grease 14 Walk and push the cart 18 feet

IP 2

Amy 16
Spirit of Air 13
Spirit of Fire 8
Overkill 6 - Spoof Command
Jack 6
Grease 4

Actions?

I think 30 feet basically puts me in front of the door. I'm going to keep walking and intercept the cart, then start walking back to the door with everyone else. I'm not entirely interested in figuring out the two trains leave from their respective stations at the same time math trick, so let's just assume I walk 5 meters forward and back if necessary.

Nevermind, I remember movement is per CT, so I guess I am either already there, or just halfway to the door. I'll wait for the team. When I do eventually get to the cart, I'm going to reach inside and secure the grenade and my armor jacket, keeping my hands inside for the moment.

Yes, basically 30 feet is as far as you can move without breaking into a run, and you move all 30 feet in that first IP.

It is weird, but that is the way it works ;(

If, during your 2nd IP, you wished to break into a run, you could then move another 30 feet in your 2nd IP.

If you had a 3rd IP, and wished to move even further, then you could, but at that point you would need to Sprint, and would move an additional distance based on how well your rolled.

Yeah, not running. I guess I will stand there oddly waiting for the cart to arrive...

Since I have actions left, I guess I'll delay for now. If the spirit starts to materialize or the door opens, I'll take my actions.

ETA: Wait, is the other spirit here yet? I know Astral movement is fast as all get out.

Remember that once summoned, the spirit has to remain within Magic x 100 meters of the summoner. So the Spirit of Air was at most 600 meters away. I believe that the movement in the astral at that distance is effectively instantaneous, so by the time you get to act in the 2nd IP, the spirit of air will be following Amy's command and manifesting inside the apartment, right behind the fire spirit.

Mind you, you have no way of knowing that IC, so as far as Jack is concerned, you are still waiting for the spirit of air to show up.