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StevenAngier
I'm wondering where this is written as the effective Attribute is lowered and not a negative modifier added on it. Thus if you had Magic 5 and get it lowered to 4 and THEN want to buy it back to 5 you'd pay the price for 5x5 (the new rating) and NOT something like 5x6 (the rating you'd have without lowered essence) as Magic loss through lowered Essence is NO negative modifier. It LOWERS the current maximum and your current attribute level. You always pay the price for the level of Magic you EFFECTIVELY have.
Dakka Dakka
Exactly. The rules say nothing about this. Would you point me to the thread that gave this answer please?
StevenAngier
QUOTE (SR4A p. 177 "Magic")
Anything that reduces a character’s Essence will also reduce Magic.
For every point (or fraction thereof ) of Essence lost, the character’s
Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one.
A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced
to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5.
Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character’s Magic again
until Essence drops below 5.


There's nothing about a negative attribute modificator but about the rating itself. Once again - no modification but an actual lowering of the attribute rating. Thus any subsequent increases are paid with the price for the rating you effectively get, not the one you'd have to pay for without essence loss.
ShadowWalker
Maybe it's in the faq or some other place. All I can tell you is that's what I was told is how it's supposed to work.
Nebular
This is where it's a bit of a grey area. SR4A 68 says they lose 1 full point from her MAG/RES and the maximum is reduced by 1. It doesn't describe how this affects BP/Karma costs either during creation or improvement, and I looked through SR4A and the other sourcebooks today to try and find any reference as to how it is handled. The BP method of spending BP to raise MAG to 4 but effectively having a 3 makes sense. This would also mean then that if you're creating a character using Karma, that MAG 4 would cost a total of 45 Karma, giving you an effective 3. Raising it to 5 (effective 4) would cost a further 25 Karma. I think we're able to agree on that.

It makes sense (to me at least) that this method remains consistent and carries over to the improvement side as well. During your career, improving MAG 4 -> 5 normally costs 25 Karma and would give you an effective 4. If you instead said that when your character is created and ready to improve MAG using the other method (MAG is now flat 3 instead of 4(3)), raising it 1 point would now cost you only 20 Karma, meaning that MAG is now 5 Karma/point less than it was in creation mode.
StevenAngier
It's the other way around. I see why you tend to use this way because all the other attributes use modificators by ware or magic.
Yet the BP method is strict in the way in which order you have to create your character. It does NOT state, that you have a rating of 4(3) then but you have a rating of 3. Your BP invested into magic 4 are lost. THIS is the price you pay for adding ware or losing essence. Not the (seemingly) saved 5 karma. Later on, during your carreer, bying back your magic rating to pre-essence-loss-ratings costs you effectively what the new rating is. You don't get more dice. You don't have ANY other means to increase your rating back to pre-lowered-ratings (even power foci cost a bag full of karma) than to pay the cost for the new rating twice (in BP first, karma afterwards).

With your method, mages are punished twice. First by the lost BP. Secondly by increased costs during the career. I don't think that is intended and revert back to what I've quoted. Your rating is lowered not modified.
redwulf25
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 24 2011, 04:58 PM) *
Maybe it's in the faq or some other place. All I can tell you is that's what I was told is how it's supposed to work.


The FAQ, I understand, has nothing to do with how the game is supposed to work and should be ignored until they put out one that shows the people who wrote it have read the rules.
ShadowWalker
I would also like to point out that the excel spreed sheet on this site also would make the cost 30 karma. I just checked.
The spreed sheet has been around long enough that if this was in fact wrong it would have been changed long ago.

As I said I think this is wrong, and it's not the way my group does it, but it does appear to be the way that's been generally accepted.

So for me the optional rule would have only max decreased, both in creation and career mode. smile.gif
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Jun 24 2011, 05:20 PM) *
The FAQ, I understand, has nothing to do with how the game is supposed to work and should be ignored until they put out one that shows the people who wrote it have read the rules.


I disagree on dismissing the faq out of hand, it's official responses to questions asked. Now that is not to say that what is there makes sense, but it is still an official answer to asked questions about how something is supposed to work.
Unfortunately they don't answer questions often, and they don't update or fix answers poorly written.
Nebular
I've emailed Jason Hardy, the product line manager, to try and get some clarification on the matter. I'm going with the current implementation of 30 Karma until I get some sort of official word. So until then, if you don't agree with it, don't pump a Magician/Technomancer full of 'ware. smile.gif
StevenAngier
QUOTE (Nebular @ Jun 25 2011, 12:27 AM) *
I've emailed Jason Hardy, the product line manager, to try and get some clarification on the matter. I'm going with the current implementation of 30 Karma until I get some sort of official word. So until then, if you don't agree with it, don't pump a Magician/Technomancer full of 'ware. smile.gif


Thanks, that will finally settle this confusion. Maybe we'll see this also added into the FAQ. Besides that I GREATLY appreciate your willingnes to even discuss such issues. Kudos!
Nebular
It'd be nice if we could just get some sort of FAQ/Errata for anything these days. There is so much that needs to be fixed/clarified. nyahnyah.gif Oh well, onwards!
Nebular
More goodies!

Build 128
  • added support for <adeptpowerpoints /> to Improvement Manager which grants additional Power Points to Adepts/Mystic Adepts
  • added Additional Power Point Metamagic to cover the optional rule for Adepts/Mystic Adepts gaining Power Points in place of a Metamagic ability
  • melee Weapons no longer throw an error when selecting them
  • fixed an issue that caused the application to restrict underbarrel weapons to one per character instead of one per Weapon
  • Weapon Mods can now be added to Cyberweapons
  • added tooltip for the Contact Connection Modifiers button
  • added tooltips for the link icons for Contacts/Enemies and Spirits/Sprites
  • MAG/RES are now correctly affected by ESS loss
  • added support for the optional rule to limit dice pools to 20 dice or 2 x (Natural Attribute + Skill Rating), whichever is higher (disabled by default)
  • added a house rule that only reduces MAG/RES maximum from ESS loss
Oustanding Issues
  • Better Update Window
  • A.I. Inherent Programs
  • Dice Rolling for Stat?
  • Support for Mutant and Toxic Critters Conversion
  • Copy Character Gear to Another Character
  • Spare Clips?
  • Cheat Sheets?
  • Modular Electronics
  • Multiple Capacity Items
Nebular
QUOTE (McDougle @ Jun 24 2011, 06:27 PM) *
The only mods available r
silencer, lasersight(useless cause they already got smartlink preinstalled) and sound suppressors. 20th p.344

Those are Accessories, not Mods. Those were already available in the Cyberweapons category for adding Cyberware. The update added the ability to add standard Weapon Mods to Cyberweapons as well.
McDougle
Sorry! I saw that one to late. smile.gif I´m gonna delete the post right away.

Another thing i want to add though:

I tried to use chummer for gm´ing today and got extremely confused with all the characters i had on inside the program. This was slowing me down to an end that i have to suggestions.

1. Instead of opening every character in "fullscreen" or with thos stinky windows it would be great to see them as several "tabs" similiar to tabs inside firefox. This would greatly improve my sl-workflow!

2. I used the print-preview to view some charsheets today. It would be nice if you could hide those windows and still be able to modify stuff inside chummer(i guess this might prove too hard, cause you would need to constantly update the open sheet when info is altered). Another nice method would be to enable some kind of still "previewer" which would open a totally new programwindow/subprogram to view several sheets in tabs(or not? confusing myself... so many possibilities to improve this nyahnyah.gif ).

I would love to see such tabs in the near future cause i plan to use chummer as my gm-character-organizer of choice as often as i can!
smile.gif

p.s.:

I would still love to see the possibility to add notes(maybe several subwindows in a popup like for the char himself in the charinfo tab) to individual contacts. notworthy.gif
ShadowWalker
The when swapping qualities it keeps telling me I don't have any karma. Which is true. Problem is I want to swap one 15 point negative quality for 2 negative qualities, one costs 10 points the other is 5.
Can't seem to select multiple items in the list.

Found an interesting bug.
If you put in the Technomancer quality.
Increase your Resonance.
Remove the Technomancer quality it.
Add the Latent Technomancer quality.
Save to Career Mode.
Swap the Latent Technomancer for Technomancer to activate your Resonance.
Your Resonance is now set to a base of what you set it to previously. Free attribute points.
Removing a quality that gives either the Magic Attribute or the Resonance Attribute should set the attribute back to one or zero or whatever it was before you added it in the first place.
ShadowWalker
When adding the Aptitude Positive Quality it asks for the associated skill.
If I hit cancel instead of selecting a skill it still adds the quality but with no skill associated to it.
cbass187
Ya I am messing around with the Military Grade Armor and the Military-Grade Armor Enhancements Doesn't appear in the mod section when I try to mod the armor. Such as the Strength Upgrade, Quick Release or any of them

Source Arsenal PG 51

That and when making an AI it doesn't show all the Positive qualities that offered to them, This program is a gift from the gods.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (cbass187 @ Jun 26 2011, 12:18 AM) *
Ya I am messing around with the Military Grade Armor and the Military-Grade Armor Enhancements Doesn't appear in the mod section when I try to mod the armor. Such as the Strength Upgrade, Quick Release or any of them

Source Arsenal PG 51

That and when making an AI it doesn't show all the Positive qualities that offered to them, This program is a gift from the gods.

It only lists the qualities that are listed on page 89 of the Runners Companion. Although there are additional ones listed in Unwired the ones there do not have a cost associated with them and so are NPC only, which might be useful to add as NPC only or some such.
Nebular
Modular Electronics has finally been taken care of! (and some prep-work for exporting chunks of a character to PACKS) biggrin.gif
Build 130
  • multiple windows now appear as a series of tabs to make finding and switching between open character easier
  • Condition Monitor penalties are now applied to all Initiative scores in Career Mode
  • losing access to the MAG or RES special Attributes now resets their values back to the Metatype minimum in Create Mode
  • canceling an Improvement dialogue now rolls back all of the Improvements that would have been created by the selected item and prevents the triggering item from being added to the character
  • added System to list of Vehicle Modifications
  • Vehicles are now limited to +2 improvements to Response, System, Firewall, and Signal unless they have the Modular Electronics Vehicle Modification
  • added support for <selectmartialart /> to PACKS
  • added support for <lifestyles /> to PACKS
Nebular
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 26 2011, 09:15 AM) *
It only lists the qualities that are listed on page 89 of the Runners Companion. Although there are additional ones listed in Unwired the ones there do not have a cost associated with them and so are NPC only, which might be useful to add as NPC only or some such.

Yeah, I was unsure of how to handle this at the time. Since they're listed with the sample A.I. Critters (and possibly only intended for them), I think what I'll end up doing is entering them as 0 BP Qualities and letting players/GMs decided whether or not they can be applied to a given A.I.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Nebular @ Jun 26 2011, 04:04 PM) *
Yeah, I was unsure of how to handle this at the time. Since they're listed with the sample A.I. Critters (and possibly only intended for them), I think what I'll end up doing is entering them as 0 BP Qualities and letting players/GMs decided whether or not they can be applied to a given A.I.

Could also make an AI critter and have them as part of what the critter can take.
Gwynfallan
I understand updating and improving Chummer is an on-going process (and can't thank you enough for your continued dedication), but decided it wouldn't hurt to ask a few simple questions that might be *facepalm* related rather than bug related.

1) Are there plans to include Composure, Judge Intentions, Lift/Carry, or Memory (SR4 138) to the character sheets any time soon or will they need to be penciled in for a while longer?
2) Is there any chance you'll be fixing the Knoweldge skills (primarily Area Knoweldge) in the Data/Skills file to Knowledge skills? I correct the "el" transposition error back to "le" with each new release.
3) Were Massaging Liners (AR 46) skipped purposely or accidentally? Most everything else in Arsenal seems to have been added, but that one item seems to elude me as either a separate piece of armor or as an add-on.
ShadowWalker
During character creation you can put points into the Tasking Skill Group without having the Technomancer Quality.
Compiling, Decompiling, and Registering as well as the Tasking skill group should not be available unless the quality is taken.

The Conjuring and Sorcery Skill Groups are available without the proper quality having been taken.
Looks like the individual skills are being disabled but the groups are not.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Gwynfallan @ Jun 26 2011, 06:19 PM) *
I understand updating and improving Chummer is an on-going process (and can't thank you enough for your continued dedication), but decided it wouldn't hurt to ask a few simple questions that might be *facepalm* related rather than bug related.

1) Are there plans to include Composure, Judge Intentions, Lift/Carry, or Memory (SR4 138) to the character sheets any time soon or will they need to be penciled in for a while longer?
2) Is there any chance you'll be fixing the Knoweldge skills (primarily Area Knoweldge) in the Data/Skills file to Knowledge skills? I correct the spelling with each new release.
3) Were Massaging Liners (AR 46) skipped purposely or accidentally? Most everything else in Arsenal seems to have been added, but that one item seems to elude me as either a separate piece of armor or as an add-on.


Would be a good idea to list which items required fixing in the data file. That way Nebular doesn't need to go hunting to find it.
Nebular
QUOTE (Gwynfallan @ Jun 26 2011, 05:19 PM) *
I understand updating and improving Chummer is an on-going process (and can't thank you enough for your continued dedication), but decided it wouldn't hurt to ask a few simple questions that might be *facepalm* related rather than bug related.

1) Are there plans to include Composure, Judge Intentions, Lift/Carry, or Memory (SR4 138) to the character sheets any time soon or will they need to be penciled in for a while longer?
2) Is there any chance you'll be fixing the Knoweldge skills (primarily Area Knoweldge) in the Data/Skills file to Knowledge skills? I correct the spelling with each new release.
3) Were Massaging Liners (AR 46) skipped purposely or accidentally? Most everything else in Arsenal seems to have been added, but that one item seems to elude me as either a separate piece of armor or as an add-on.

1) I've added it to The List O' Stuff. smile.gif
2) has been fixed. I've uploaded the corrected Skills file. I never even noticed those before.
3) is already there. They are an Armor Mod for the Victory Clothing line. (Select a piece of Victory clothing that has been added to your character, right-click or hit the dropdown on the Armor button, select Armor Mods, and should appear in the list)
Nebular
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 26 2011, 05:29 PM) *
Would be a good idea to list which items required fixing in the data file. That way Nebular doesn't need to go hunting to find it.

Find/Replace is my friend and does all of the work! biggrin.gif
McDougle
I was hoping that you would have it included when i get back from the weekend-trip(present time! biggrin.gif). ^^


1. Will you implement one/some of my other suggestions in the future(indepedent preview-windows ec.)?

2. I think it would be more efficient to change "Create new character" to "Karma-Build", or "BP-Build" in the tabs. You could even set the font of those repeating statements down a bit, so it stands up from the actual charname and doesnt take up so much space(i tend to open several chars side by side).
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Nebular @ Jun 26 2011, 08:28 PM) *
Find/Replace is my friend and does all of the work! biggrin.gif


That is true, but you still have to go hunting for the spelling/typos. If someone notices something it would be better to just list them so you don't have to go looking for them.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (McDougle @ Jun 26 2011, 08:33 PM) *
I was hoping that you would have it included when i get back from the weekend-trip(present time! biggrin.gif). ^^


1. Will you implement one/some of my other suggestions in the future(indepedent preview-windows ec.)?

2. I think it would be more efficient to change "Create new character" to "Karma-Build", or "BP-Build" in the tabs. You could even set the font of those repeating statements down a bit, so it stands up from the actual charname and doesnt take up so much space(i tend to open several chars side by side).


Actually I would suggest using what's entered in Character Name and Alias as what goes in the tabs.
John Doe (Killer Bunny)

or something like that.
Nebular
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 26 2011, 08:52 PM) *
Actually I would suggest using what's entered in Character Name and Alias as what goes in the tabs.
John Doe (Killer Bunny)

or something like that.

That's what I want to do, but one step at a time. I had to get the tabs just working first. smile.gif
Gwynfallan
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 26 2011, 03:29 PM) *
Would be a good idea to list which items required fixing in the data file. That way Nebular doesn't need to go hunting to find it.

Sorry, thought I was being clever by bold facing the transposition errors in the spelling...most every use of the word "knowledge" in the Skills Data file has an "el" transposition error. I edited the previous post to clarify this.
Nebular
QUOTE (McDougle @ Jun 26 2011, 07:33 PM) *
1. Will you implement one/some of my other suggestions in the future(indepedent preview-windows ec.)?

All I can tell you is the same thing I tell everyone else: Maybe. smile.gif
McDougle
QUOTE (Nebular @ Jun 27 2011, 03:46 PM) *
All I can tell you is the same thing I tell everyone else: Maybe. smile.gif

That has to be enough then. wink.gif U already did alot. cyber.gif
Burrito Al Pastor
Vehicles and drones which naturally have more armor than body are having their speed and acceleration reduced as though they had taken armor mods.

The available Qualities to AI characters don't change when "Show Only Qualities I Can Take" is unchecked. (Even if you select "Ignore Character Creation Rules" at the BP/Karma selection dialog.) I would consider this a major issue with the implementation of AIs, given that a GM would be perfectly reasonable to allow, say, Signature.
Nebular
QUOTE (Burrito Al Pastor @ Jun 27 2011, 09:35 PM) *
Vehicles and drones which naturally have more armor than body are having their speed and acceleration reduced as though they had taken armor mods.

Could you give me an example of two of the Vehicles/Drones this is happening to so I know what to look for?
SpellBinder
Well, the GM-Nissan Doberman has an Accel of 10/25 & Speed of 75, but once selected it's reduced to 8/20 & 60. It shouldn't suffer a speed penalty unless it's given an armor mod with a rating of at least 13 (more than three times its body). Also noticed this with the Steel Lynx (large drone, Body 4 & Armor 9) as well as the Ares APC-52 (military APC, Body 16 & Armor 22). I'd wager that everything from PMV to the drones are suffering a speed penalty if their base armor is greater than their body.

Tested a thought with the Bloodhound Mk III (Body 5 & base Armor 1), and noticed that with a normal armor mod on that the Accel & Speed values dropped by 20% once the armor rating went to 6. These values shouldn't be impacted until the armor exceeds Body × 3 (or in the case of the Bloodhound, exceeds 15). Also tested on a Dodge Scoot (Body 4 & Armor 2) with concealed armor, and it did the same thing when the armor rating was set to 5 (should be 9 before they drop).
Burrito Al Pastor
Oh, for the features list - any chance for support of priority character generation?

Also, any chance we'll get anything from the "Apocryphal Errata" thread - namely, a fix for the thing where it's currently free to play anything in karmagen? It feels a little bit wrong to not pay a single point to play a bear shapeshifter just because I'm karmagenning.
ShadowWalker
Not sure if this is applicable to the vehicle armour discussion, but the errata for arsenal has the following change to the armour/movement modifier.

QUOTE
pp. 132-133 Armor Modification
Insert the following text between the fourth and fifth
sentences to the final paragraph of the Armor modification description:
“When either of the Armor totals exceeds the vehicle’s
Body, reduce the vehicle’s Acceleration and Speed by 20%
(round up).”
ShadowWalker
Just noticed that Nexi are missing a way of selecting Signal when you are creating one.
SpellBinder
Ah, I see. Was confusing a later portion about the maximum armor a vehicle/drone could take.

But then either Chummer would have to recognize if the armor values of a vehicle/drone are stock and not modify Accel/Speed or the Accel/Speed values of the over-armored vehicles/drones be upped by 25% in the XML files to account for their heavy armor (which would mean that such vehicles/drones would get their 20% boost to speed if armor is stripped down). If the later is done, then the vehicles/drones that come with Smart Tires stock (like the Horizon Double Revolution & Tata Hotspur) should be adjusted and the tires modify Accel/Speed accordingly.

Also noticed that vehicle mods cannot be removed (like if you would want to remove the Hotspur's Smart Tires in favor of Racing Tires for a +30% boost in Speed).
ShadowWalker
When you buy a Fake SIN what is the Value it is asking for?

Also when you buy a Fake SIN and cancel on the Value it still pays for it and then doesn't put it in the gear list.

How do you handle additional costs such as those under Availability on page 312 SR4A. Where you can increase the cost in order to get extra dice in the test.
Or the Street Cost Table on the same page.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 28 2011, 09:55 AM) *
When you buy a Fake SIN what is the Value it is asking for?
It's the name associated with the SIN.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 28 2011, 03:10 AM) *
It's the name associated with the SIN.


Ah, makes sense, thanks.

The Enemy Negative Quality can also be a Group, just like Contacts.
Also when adding an Enemy in Career Mode it should probably treat doing so the same way that it does adding other Qualities and put it in the log.

When adding a complex form in Career Mode is does not confirm if you want to do so.

The Living Persona's Attributes are limited by the Resonance Attribute.

The Submersion History in Career Mode always lists the Grade as 1.
I'm thinking it's supposed to say, Grade 1, Grade 2 (task), Grade 3 (Network, Task) etc...
SpellBinder
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 28 2011, 01:55 AM) *
...

How do you handle additional costs such as those under Availability on page 312 SR4A. Where you can increase the cost in order to get extra dice in the test.
Or the Street Cost Table on the same page.

Well, it looks like there's a button labeled "Nuyen Spent" that simply deducts a flat amount of money (whatever value you enter) from however much you have. Just change the description to whatever makes sense to you that you're paying above market for whatever it is that you're buying in a hurry.

However, having an option to check at the time of purchase of an item that you're going to pay 250% more for an item (max for +10 dice) can make it easier for the mathematically challenged. Same goes too for Street Costs (SR4a, page 312).
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 28 2011, 03:28 AM) *
Well, it looks like there's a button labeled "Nuyen Spent" that simply deducts a flat amount of money (whatever value you enter) from however much you have. Just change the description to whatever makes sense to you that you're paying above market for whatever it is that you're buying in a hurry.

However, having an option to check at the time of purchase of an item that you're going to pay 250% more for an item (max for +10 dice) can make it easier for the mathematically challenged. Same goes too for Street Costs (SR4a, page 312).


I'm thinking just put a field in that lets you enter a number that will be treated as a percentage to be used to modify the cost. The final cost should be displayed somewhere.
ie: +20 or -20 would be used to increase/decrease the cost by 20%.

I also noticed that checking Free! or Do it Yourself does not display the modified cost anywhere on the window before you buy.

If you rollback the purchase of a Submersion Grade it does not remove the history.
The selecting of Echos is also not linked to a particular grade and isn't put in the log when added.

In Career Mode the Registered checkbox for Sprites is always greyed out and checked.

Sprite Critters should have access to the Complex Forms tab (without sprites).
The data file includes both the starting complex forms as well as the optional ones.
The list of complex forms that can be added should be limited to the optional ones.
The rating for the Complex Forms should be equal to the Rating of the Sprite.

I noticed that if I add the Technomancer quality to the Sprite it shows the Complex Form tab and the Complex Forms it's supposed to have are listed, and it's properly filtering the complex forms available to add based on optional ones.
Argent
Text only character sheet does not display the description, concept, and notes that the regular character sheet displays. Thanks.
Dhuul
It would be great if the MAG/RES-related skills were removed from the skill list if the character did not have the corresponding attribute/positive quality.

Another thing I'd like to see ist a list of skills that are in a given skill group when hovering over said skill group.

I know both of these are pure cosmetic changes, but they would make using Chummer even easier.
Nebular
QUOTE (Dhuul @ Jun 28 2011, 06:53 AM) *
Another thing I'd like to see ist a list of skills that are in a given skill group when hovering over said skill group.

This has been there for quite some time. Hover over the Skill Group name for about a second and it should pop up a tooltip that says "Skills in this Group: [whatever]".
Nebular
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jun 28 2011, 02:16 AM) *
Also when adding an Enemy in Career Mode it should probably treat doing so the same way that it does adding other Qualities and put it in the log.

Enemies are considered to be Negative Qualities, so you don't gain Karma by taking them during play.
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