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Nebular
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 10:43 AM) *
A few quirks I've seen:
  • Incompetent quality should grey out the controls on the skills tab instead of just preventing user from raising the skill, because it is still possible to pick a specialization for it and gain 2 points in that skill. IMHO, the character sheet should display a "-" instead of not having the skill present at all so that people don't think it is a mistake and remember it is linked to the quality. Having that, one can do pretty much anything on the character sheet to make it clearer as long as it is different than 0 or not even there.
  • Specialization for language skills seem to be untranslated.
  • Could all knowledge skills and their specialization be sorted alphabetically in the translated language before being displayed?

As usual, thanks.

Well, I see the problem in fr_data.xml with the Knowledge Skill Specializations... there aren't any! The translate attribute is blank and you've put the translated values in where the English ones should be! (well, for Languages at lesat, the rest look right) biggrin.gif
deurk
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 06:02 PM) *
Well, I see the problem in fr_data.xml with the Knowledge Skill Specializations... there aren't any! The translate attribute is blank and you've put the translated values in where the English ones should be! (well, for Languages at lesat, the rest look right) biggrin.gif

Let me fix that before your release nyahnyah.gif
Or maybe it is simpler if you do it? Since you got the French in there anyway wink.gif
deurk
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 06:03 PM) *
Let me fix that before your release nyahnyah.gif
Or maybe it is simpler if you do it? Since you got the French in there anyway wink.gif

Nevermind, it's done and pushed to the repository. You can update from my sig smile.gif
Nebular
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 11:03 AM) *
Let me fix that before your release nyahnyah.gif
Or maybe it is simpler if you do it? Since you got the French in there anyway wink.gif

Done and uploaded! Find/replace is much easier than trying to understand it! I can piece bits of it together but those juniour high French classes are long forgotten.
Edit: whoops. Looks like we both did it at the same time. At least we came up with the same results! biggrin.gif I uploaded your version to replace mine just to be safe.
Nebular
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 10:43 AM) *
A few quirks I've seen:
  • Incompetent quality should grey out the controls on the skills tab instead of just preventing user from raising the skill, because it is still possible to pick a specialization for it and gain 2 points in that skill. IMHO, the character sheet should display a "-" instead of not having the skill present at all so that people don't think it is a mistake and remember it is linked to the quality. Having that, one can do pretty much anything on the character sheet to make it clearer as long as it is different than 0 or not even there.
  • Specialization for language skills seem to be untranslated.
  • Could all knowledge skills and their specialization be sorted alphabetically in the translated language before being displayed?

As usual, thanks.

To address the other items now that the Language Specialization one is taken care of...

I'm going to leave Incompetent Skills the way they are since they behave in the same manner as other Active Skills that you cannot default in. I'd prefer to only disable skills that are a part of a Skill Group so that you don't end up confusing grouped Skills with Incompetent Skills. What I should change, however, is disabling the Specialization field for a Skill unless you have at least a Rating 1 in it since you cannot specialise in something if you're not trained in it.

Knowledge Skills and their Specializations are already sorted by their translated value. Sorting them once they're added to the character is a more complicated matter and is only done when a save file is loaded.
deurk
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 06:31 PM) *
Knowledge Skills and their Specializations are already sorted by their translated value. Sorting them once they're added to the character is a more complicated matter and is only done when a save file is loaded.

I just meant the lists you can choose from, not the actual skills.
deurk
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 06:31 PM) *
I'm going to leave Incompetent Skills the way they are since they behave in the same manner as other Active Skills that you cannot default in. I'd prefer to only disable skills that are a part of a Skill Group so that you don't end up confusing grouped Skills with Incompetent Skills. What I should change, however, is disabling the Specialization field for a Skill unless you have at least a Rating 1 in it since you cannot specialise in something if you're not trained in it.

Can't we get something in the character XML to work with on the sheet? Pretty please? The rest sounds good enough.
Nebular
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 11:33 AM) *
I just meant the lists you can choose from, not the actual skills.

The list of choices for both the Knowledge Skill and its Specializations are already sorted alphabetically by the translated name (it's just a property that's set on the control). Is there something that's appearing out-of-order?
Nebular
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 11:33 AM) *
Can't we get something in the character XML to work with on the sheet? Pretty please? The rest sounds good enough.

You should be able to determine that by checking the <extra /> tag for the Incompetent Quality. <extra /> will match the name of an Active Skill. A Skill really doesn't know that it's Incompetent - the only thing it knows is that its maximum Rating is 0. Would it help to output the maximum Rating for Skills? Most of them will always show as 6 or higher since those are the actual limits of Skills (Critters like Dragons tend to go over these limits), but Incompetent Skills will always show their maximum Rating as 0.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 11:31 AM) *
Covert Ops should have it. Looks like the addon category for it wasn't defined. It will be in the next update.

The are a number of Matrix Program that should not have the free plugins - namely those that simply cannot have Program Options attached to them like Agent, IC, Firewall, Pilot, and System. Only Common Use, Hacking, Autosoft, and Simsense programs can have Program Options attached to them.

What's funny is that Unwired does say that agents, IC, Pilot, System and Firewall should have them.
Page 94 has a table for Cracking Copy Protection that includes all of those.
Also page 108 of unwired says the following

QUOTE
In game-terms, legal registered software is equipped with both the Copy Protection and the Registration program options (see p. 115). Note that all Common programs (Analyze, Browse, Command, Edit, Encrypt, Purge, Reality Filter, and Scan), agents, autosofts, skillsofts, and commercial operating systems acquired by the basic software rules and prices (see pp. 225–228 and 320–322, SR4) are considered legal software that include these options by default.

Operating Systems are System and Firewall bundled together.
The rules for software is crazy. The time it takes to hack it is long enough that you would spend most of your time hacking it and not actually running, and the rules for using non-hacked make it so easy to trace the user of non-hacked that you would be crazy to use non-hacked. It's like a catch-22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Both Copy Protectino and Registration don't take up any Capacity and are allows on things that don't normally allow program options.
deurk
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 06:42 PM) *
You should be able to determine that by checking the <extra /> tag for the Incompetent Quality. <extra /> will match the name of an Active Skill. A Skill really doesn't know that it's Incompetent - the only thing it knows is that its maximum Rating is 0. Would it help to output the maximum Rating for Skills? Most of them will always show as 6 or higher since those are the actual limits of Skills (Critters like Dragons tend to go over these limits), but Incompetent Skills will always show their maximum Rating as 0.

Would be nice! Could do some graphical bars or something with a value and its maximum wink.gif
Nebular
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 10 2011, 11:48 AM) *
What's funny is that Unwired does say that agents, IC, Pilot, System and Firewall should have them.
Page 94 has a table for Cracking Copy Protection that includes all of those.
Also page 108 of unwired says the following


Operating Systems are System and Firewall bundled together.
The rules for software is crazy. The time it takes to hack it is long enough that you would spend most of your time hacking it and not actually running, and the rules for using non-hacked make it so easy to trace the user of non-hacked that you would be crazy to use non-hacked. It's like a catch-22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Both Copy Protectino and Registration don't take up any Capacity and are allows on things that don't normally allow program options.

That is really messed up, 'cause UN 114 says only certain types can have them. Seems like the book is contradicting itself. You'd think things like Agents and IC should have access to options, especially Copy Protection and Registration since the corps would be purchasing them from somewhere! So the question is should all Matrix Programs come with those options, even if they're not typically allowed to have Program Options, or should those wacky items just be given access to Program Options in general and let people sort out what can and cannot receive them?
Nebular
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 11:48 AM) *
Would be nice! Could do some graphical bars or something with a value and its maximum wink.gif

Easy enough. Skills will have a <ratingmax /> tag in the next update then.
Diabolos
Have a great vacation!

Here's a little something for you to work on when you get back:

Adding a Firewall Commlink Operating System Upgrade to a Commlink OS on a Commlink does not update the Firewall rating of the Commlink itself, instead the Firewall rating for the Commlink shows as 0. Adding a System Commlink Operating System Upgrade appears to work as expected.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 01:40 PM) *
That is really messed up, 'cause UN 114 says only certain types can have them. Seems like the book is contradicting itself. You'd think things like Agents and IC should have access to options, especially Copy Protection and Registration since the corps would be purchasing them from somewhere! So the question is should all Matrix Programs come with those options, even if they're not typically allowed to have Program Options, or should those wacky items just be given access to Program Options in general and let people sort out what can and cannot receive them?

I would say yes, have those two be on everything, and let all other only be on the ones specifically stated as being allowed.
In reality all purchased software would have both those built in. That's the way it is now, I expect it will be the same 60 years from now.
ShadowWalker
bah, double post
Nebular
QUOTE (Diabolos @ Nov 10 2011, 12:45 PM) *
Have a great vacation!

Here's a little something for you to work on when you get back:

Adding a Firewall Commlink Operating System Upgrade to a Commlink OS on a Commlink does not update the Firewall rating of the Commlink itself, instead the Firewall rating for the Commlink shows as 0. Adding a System Commlink Operating System Upgrade appears to work as expected.

Whoops. Turns out it was trying to use the System Rating of the Firewall which will always be 0. I'll have this fixed in the next update.
Nebular
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 10 2011, 12:49 PM) *
I would say yes, have those two be on everything, and let all other only be on the ones specifically stated as being allowed.
In reality all purchased software would have both those built in. That's the way it is now, I expect it will be the same 60 years from now.

k. So all non-Suite, non-Hacked Matrix Programs (and Autosofts, etc.) will come with Copy Protection and Registration pre-equipped, regardless of them usually have access to Program Options or not. I'll have this in the next update.
Nebular
Turns out there was enough small, quick stuff to justify doing another quick update before I head off, so here it is!

Build 247
  • character Alias is now shown in the prompt to save a character when exiting the application to make identifying which characters to save easier
  • Quality names are now translated in the error message when trying to change your Metatype
  • Add Sprite button now reads from the translation file
  • required and forbidden items are now translated in the Select Quality and Select Metamagic/Echo windows
  • Adept Powers now have their Ratings properly reduced if a character's MAG is reduced
  • Adept Powers can now go above Rating 6 based on the character's MAG Attribute
  • added <ratingmax /> to the printout XML for Skills to show the maximum Rating the character would be able to acquire for the Skill
  • Firewall and System Ratings are now properly restricted when adding a Commlink Operating System Upgrade to a Commlink Operating System
  • fixed an issue where adding a Firewall Commlink Operating System Upgrade to a Commlink Operating System would cause a Commlink to believe its new Firewall Rating to be 0
  • all non-Suite, non-Hacked Matrix Programs now come with Copy Protection and Registration
Modified Strings
  • Message_UnsavedChanges
New Strings
  • Button_AddSprite
Diabolos
At this rate, you'll never leave! And I'm not helping!

Audio Enhancements to audio sensors/enhancers have a capacity cost of 1 per rating, per SR4a p333. Current functionality has it at a capacity cost of 1 per enhancement, regardless of rating.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Diabolos @ Nov 10 2011, 05:42 PM) *
At this rate, you'll never leave! And I'm not helping!

Audio Enhancements to audio sensors/enhancers have a capacity cost of 1 per rating, per SR4a p333. Current functionality has it at a capacity cost of 1 per enhancement, regardless of rating.

what heading paragraph? I can't find that on page 333.
deurk
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 11 2011, 12:03 AM) *
what heading paragraph? I can't find that on page 333.

Don't find it either
deurk
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 06:38 PM) *
The list of choices for both the Knowledge Skill and its Specializations are already sorted alphabetically by the translated name (it's just a property that's set on the control). Is there something that's appearing out-of-order?

The list of knowledge quality types is not sorted by translated terms.
deurk
<removed>
deurk
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 03:23 AM) *
There are a couple of Weapons like this that are really screwy. The base Weapon itself has a distinct Category (like Assault Rifles). The Weapon itself just has different modes it can be put together; they're not different version and don't require a separate purchase for any of them (which is why the other entries for them are all 0¥). The additional entries are there so that you can add them to the character to see how each configuration works and can be loaded with ammo properly. Since they're all listed under the same Category as the parent item in the book, it made sense to keep them that way in the data file, rather than forcing someone to hunt down all of the various configurations across multiple Categories or discover some neat free item just laying around. smile.gif

Except that ammunition are linked to the category if I'm not mistaking, so buying the shotgun version with shotgun ammo won't let you reload. I think it's better to have accurate information (even though even with changed categories it won't require you to buy the base of the weapon to get the shotgun piece for example) than ease the hunt like you said, hunt that can pretty quickly return everything by just inputting weapon name in the search box smile.gif
McDougle
Stacking is not available in Create mode(important for stacked items and plugins(like splash grenades).
deurk
QUOTE (McDougle @ Nov 11 2011, 01:30 PM) *
Stacking is not available in Create mode(important for stacked items and plugins(like splash grenades).

Stacking in create mode is done by buying each stack separately. You can't split/join stacks but each "buy" is a separate stack so if you need to have 5 splash grenades with one product and 5 splash grenades with another product, just buy 5 splash grenades twice and add the accessories (products) once for each stack afterwards.
ChatNoir
It seems I can add whatever I want as a plugin in my Googles / Glasses / Contact Lenses / Hearbuds (and probably other items). Wasn't that limited to relevent stuff before ?
Same thing for Commlinks etc.

I'm gonna add a parachute right now to my Googles ! It's better to be prepared ! biggrin.gif
Diabolos
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 10 2011, 06:48 PM) *
Don't find it either


In my copy of SR4a, under the section labelled Audio Enhancements:

QUOTE
Audio enhancements are commonly available as earbuds or headphones. Each will play audio input from AR or other sources. Each enhancement costs 1 Capacity (per rating).


For clarification, I have the English 20th anniversary core rulebook.
ShadowWalker
Strange mine says:

QUOTE
Audio enhancements are commonly available as earbuds or headphones. Each will play audio input from AR or other sources.

There must be a difference in printings, and since there is no errata for sr4a...

I would think that if audio enhancements work that way video would as well. What does it say under Video Enhancements?
Diabolos
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 11 2011, 01:46 PM) *
Strange mine says:


There must be a difference in printings, and since there is no errata for sr4a...

I would think that if audio enhancements work that way video would as well. What does it say under Video Enhancements?


The section on Vision Enhancements says:
QUOTE
A number of options are available for installation in visual sensors and imaging devices. Each enhancement costs 1 Capacity

ShadowWalker
Interesting mine says:
QUOTE
A number of options are available for installation in visual sensors and imaging devices.

I wonder which is the more recent version of the rules.
I wish they would release the errata for 4a. Strange how they have one be 1 per enhancement rating and the other is 1 per enhancement.
Sengir
QUOTE (Nebular @ Nov 10 2011, 10:19 PM) *
[*]all non-Suite, non-Hacked Matrix Programs now come with Copy Protection and Registration

Speaking of which...would it be possible to make Registration optional? We generally assume that the programs a runner uses come without such "goodies", and AFAIK that also is the rule used for Missions.
deurk
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 11 2011, 10:59 PM) *
Interesting mine says:

I wonder which is the more recent version of the rules.
I wish they would release the errata for 4a. Strange how they have one be 1 per enhancement rating and the other is 1 per enhancement.


Weird indeed, I got it in the French version and not in the English version.
French version mentions it is version 1.02 (April 2011), based on English version 1.00 (April 2009).
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 11 2011, 05:43 PM) *
Speaking of which...would it be possible to make Registration optional? We generally assume that the programs a runner uses come without such "goodies", and AFAIK that also is the rule used for Missions.

Both program options come at no cost, and on top of that, you can delete both at no cost too.
Kirk
A negative quality seems to have disappeared -- or never was added, dunno.

I can't find "enemy" (RC 104) on the list.
deurk
It's right under the contacts, under the attributes, not in the qualities field.
Kirk
Thank you, Deurk.
someone3x7
Howdy, been loving chummer btw. However, have encountered a few minor issues and bugs when tracking a rigger character. I can see that vehicle modifications are largely unimplemented at this time so I will save most that wish list for a later time.

Bug when purchasing matrix programs in career mode as gear directly on a vehicle: it allows you to select the hacked option and displays the price correctly at time of purchase (which is good). But charges full price and notes the full priced charge on the expense sheet.

Bug when printing vehicles, the show and page-break options react randomly at best in the vehicle blocks. Would seem the xsl templates do not differentiate between individual vehicle blocks. I don't know enough about xsl to make my own yet.

Bug with Autosofts: Missing hacked option.

Issue with programs Pilot and System: No option to designate the device a pilot/system program was designed for. Pilot and System software are very specific to the make and model of the device they are running on, suffering a -2 dice-pool when applied to a similar product and etc. Thus, would prefer the option to manually enter device name after selecting program as done for the Maneuver and Targeting autosofts.

Minor issue/design choice: System, Firewall, Response, and Signal are duplicated multiple times each in the gear list. Yet, the rules are the same for them on all devices. As in system/firewall is always limited by response and can be "hacked" for installing on vehicles, commlinks, and anything else with an embedded computer. It would be a simpler design to maintain if only have one entry each.

Wish list item: house-rule to allow directly editing the base stats(device rating, base-response, base-signal, sensor, etc) of an individual vehicle. I figure this might be easier to implement before the rest the vehicle stuff gets added so am mentioning it now...

Hope I haven't rambled too much. I have a game to prepare for now. Many thanks for the awesome character builder and your hard work. Have fun smile.gif
KeyMasterOfGozer
QUOTE (someone3x7 @ Nov 12 2011, 07:46 PM) *
Bug when printing vehicles, the show and page-break options react randomly at best in the vehicle blocks. Would seem the xsl templates do not differentiate between individual vehicle blocks. I don't know enough about xsl to make my own yet.

I noticed this as well when I was working on the Vehicle Block template. This is a problem for all blocks that are repeated, like Commlinks and such.

I think I have a solution, but I have not tried it yet. I'll see if I can put some time into it this weekend.
someone3x7
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 10 2011, 09:48 AM) *
Operating Systems are System and Firewall bundled together.
The rules for software is crazy. The time it takes to hack it is long enough that you would spend most of your time hacking it and not actually running, and the rules for using non-hacked make it so easy to trace the user of non-hacked that you would be crazy to use non-hacked. It's like a catch-22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Unwired also lists rules for piracy which greatly reduces the time to patch a hacked application since you can find p2p networks that have whole categories of apps to download in one shot.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (someone3x7 @ Nov 12 2011, 07:18 PM) *
Unwired also lists rules for piracy which greatly reduces the time to patch a hacked application since you can find p2p networks that have whole categories of apps to download in one shot.

You still end up having to make rolls once a month to ensure you find what you need to update your software so it doesn't get degraded.
They should have just included all of these things into the price and left it the way it was.
You don't see street samurai or mages making monthly rolls to see if their cyberware or spells work properly every month.
KeyMasterOfGozer
QUOTE (KeyMasterOfGozer @ Nov 12 2011, 07:58 PM) *
I noticed this as well when I was working on the Vehicle Block template. This is a problem for all blocks that are repeated, like Commlinks and such.

I think I have a solution, but I have not tried it yet. I'll see if I can put some time into it this weekend.

Ok, I have made a fix for Multiple Vehicle/Drone printing. You will need to download these two files and put them in your chummer/sheets folder. When Nebular gets back from vacation, he can put up the files in the real updates.

Shadowrun 4 Base.xslt
Vehicle Block.xsl
someone3x7
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Nov 12 2011, 04:30 PM) *
You still end up having to make rolls once a month to ensure you find what you need to update your software so it doesn't get degraded.
They should have just included all of these things into the price and left it the way it was.
You don't see street samurai or mages making monthly rolls to see if their cyberware or spells work properly every month.

Starting to get more than a little off topic here. But you also don't see mages or street samurai getting their cyberware and spells for 1/10th the normal price. Nuyen per karma/bp software is cheap even before hacking.
someone3x7
QUOTE (KeyMasterOfGozer @ Nov 12 2011, 04:53 PM) *
Ok, I have made a fix for Multiple Vehicle/Drone printing. You will need to download these two files and put them in your chummer/sheets folder. When Nebular gets back from vacation, he can put up the files in the real updates.

Shadowrun 4 Base.xslt
Vehicle Block.xsl

Many thanks smile.gif
Jazz
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 12 2011, 12:23 AM) *
Weird indeed, I got it in the French version and not in the English version.
French version mentions it is version 1.02 (April 2011), based on English version 1.00 (April 2009).

deurk, see http://shadowrun.fr/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2729

Especially final post.
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (Jazz @ Nov 12 2011, 08:36 PM) *
deurk, see http://shadowrun.fr/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2729

Especially final post.

The question is, which is correct?
deurk
No freaking idea indifferent.gif
ShadowWalker
QUOTE (deurk @ Nov 13 2011, 04:29 AM) *
No freaking idea indifferent.gif

What printing dates do you have in your books?
The one with the most resent printing date should be the most accurate version.
someone3x7
Oh, another thing I should of noticed before is that currently Vehicles are treating Pilot and System separately. However, per the description of Pilot it is the vehicles system.
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