Dumpshock Forums > Chummer Character Generator

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 6 2011, 08:58 PM)

Ah, well, that's easy. Thank you. I do have a pair of problems, however. When I use the ability in the BP build option, it doesn't actually open the Initiation tab or add to the level of Initiation. I'm guessing that second half will fixed in the update, but not being able to add any metamagics via the Initiation tab in BP mode is seriously hindering creating a prime runner. I've tried it using the "Ignore Character Creation Rules" option as well, still no tab.

The problem here is that you according to the rules, you cannot Initiate using the BP build method since Initiating requires Karma to be spent (you can Initiate if you're building with Karma though). I'm not sure how to handle this...

QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 6 2011, 08:58 PM)

Well, that and I'm totally lost on how Changeling (Class X SURGE) actually works. I see it granting free points in my build point summary (though only half of what it's supposed to), but it's not subtracted from my total BP remaining in the lower left corner. When I add a SURGE ability, it subtracts from both totals, even though it's supposed to grant its own pool. Is this intentional?

This is where things get a little nutty. Let's use Changeling Class I as the example with 400 BP. The free Qualities are applied directly against your Positive/Negative BP totals. When you purchase Changeling for 5 BP, you're down to 395 BP remaining. It then gives you 5 BP "free" Negative Quality (which actually costs you BP since it needs to offset you gaining 5 BP worth of Negative Qualities which normally grant you BP). This takes you to 390 BP. You then get 10 BP "free" Positive Qualities (which actually gives you BP since it needs to offset you spending BP worth of Positive Qualities which normally costs you BP). This takes you back to 400 BP.

You then purchase the Catlike Positive Quality for 10 BP which is covered by the "free" Positive Quality BP, putting your Positive Quality BP total back to 5 and your overall total at 390 BP. You then purchase the Addiction (Mild) Negative Quality for -5 BP which is covered by the "free" Negative Quality BP, putting your Negative Quality BP total back to 0. This puts you back at 395 BP which means you're only down the 5 BP that you spend on Changeling.

It's a little screwy, but it works. This seemed to be about the only way to handle it since you can pay off the Negative Qualities with Karma later, and means that you can still buy a Quality that is worth more than the free 10 BP - you just get a 10 BP discount on it. Clear as mud?

Neko Asakami

Jul 7 2011, 05:00 AM

Okay, that thing with Changeling makes sense, in a weird sort of way.

The reason this whole thing with Initiating came about is I had a break in my game for about two months due to work. Upon starting up again, it was discovered that not all of the players were completely happy with their characters and not everyone remembered to level up their characters in the intervening time. Since most of the players had 50 karma, I reasoned that starting players at 425 BP would be a simple way to handle things. My misreading (and subsequent house-ruling) of the Initiation costs linked up nicely with BP since everything was multiplied by 10 (rather than added to 10), thus no problems were had during character creation. Short version: We're not creating "new characters," we're redoing old characters with build points. Trust me, it's a lot simpler to do that vs saying "okay, you get 400 BP, then 50 karma. Oh, and 15 free BP for contacts. Except you, Toby, you get your barrista contact for free and Rob and Chris don't actually get anything more for having the Ancients as a 15 pt enemy since you guys did that all in game." The cost of Initiating hasn't come up since the rebuild and I didn't discover my error in reading the formula until I actually tried recreating one of the PCs in Chummer.

Uh...as to what to do about it? Code in an option to use the <enabletab /> tag in the custom xml to open the Initiate tab? Honestly, that seems like a pretty straight forward solution. It would also enable people to make an option for just buying metamagics on their own without having to Initiate, which is something my game also uses. (I had to figure out a way for my Drake player to hide herself from the other Awakened players' Astral scans and the Masking metamagic worked best.) I will be the first to totally admit that it's a corner case, but you never know who it will come in handy for.

SpellBinder

Jul 7 2011, 07:59 AM

Came across a glitch when trying to make a cyber martial artist. In trying to add the advantage "Reduce an opponent's 'friends in melee' bonus by 1", I get a message saying "You must select a Martial Art to add an Advantage to." It does not appear to matter which martial art this advantage shows up under, the rating of the martial art, or what other advantages have been chosen (if any).

whatevs

Jul 7 2011, 09:04 AM

I notice that you have the contacts from 'Runner's Companion' and 'Adventures and Contacts'. How about the contacts from SR4a(289)?

I made the first one (bartender) and exported to .xml. Lemme know if this is a format you can work with for your next update and I'll see if I have time to make more.

[ Spoiler ]

StevenAngier

Jul 7 2011, 10:28 AM

Yeah that's how it works (math wise) SURGE X adds an amount of BP for the minimum amount of positive and negative Characteristics (metagenetic qualities) the Class would allow you to take. By then adding the appropriate qualities, Chummer subtracts them from this amount until you hit the actual cost OR have to pay more/get BP back if you either exceed the positive or negative pool for metagenetic quaities. I was puzzled by this at first too. Just ignore it until you have applied the metagenetic qualities you wanted to and you will see Chummer do the magic.

A suggestion though: I'd put the metagenetic qualities in an extra tab which pops up after selecting one of the three Surge Qualities. This way it's harder to mix up. Make it like with initiation where at first the pool for the metagenetic qualities is "free". Give warnings once you exceed the limits and apply the amount you have to pay / you get back AFTER closing this second window for metagenetic qualities.

ShadowWalker

Jul 7 2011, 10:41 AM

My understanding for surge is that the qualities you are supposed to take for the points give are ones categorized as metagenic qualities.
This being the reason they give you a list of old qualities that qualify as metagenic qualities as well. Page 110 under "Other Metagenic Qualities" is where this list can be found.
I'm not sure that Chummer right now enforces this as it seems to allow you to take any qualities you choose as part of the Surge Quality.

StevenAngier

Jul 7 2011, 11:36 AM

QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jul 7 2011, 12:41 PM)

My understanding for surge is that the qualities you are supposed to take for the points give are ones categorized as metagenic qualities.
This being the reason they give you a list of old qualities that qualify as metagenic qualities as well. Page 110 under "Other Metagenic Qualities" is where this list can be found.
I'm not sure that Chummer right now enforces this as it seems to allow you to take any qualities you choose as part of the Surge Quality.

It seems more like only qualities that are designated as "metagenetic" count against the "weird" cost modification the Surge qualities apply in chummer. That's why I suggested this second window exclusive for metagenetic qualities. As it is with Initiation or Qualities which need more information like mentor spirit or incompetence.

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 01:41 PM

QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 7 2011, 12:00 AM)

Uh...as to what to do about it? Code in an option to use the <enabletab /> tag in the custom xml to open the Initiate tab? Honestly, that seems like a pretty straight forward solution. It would also enable people to make an option for just buying metamagics on their own without having to Initiate, which is something my game also uses. (I had to figure out a way for my Drake player to hide herself from the other Awakened players' Astral scans and the Masking metamagic worked best.) I will be the first to totally admit that it's a corner case, but you never know who it will come in handy for.

Yeah, I was thinkin' about doing it as <enabletab /> last night. I'm not exactly keen on the idea because it means you can access the Initiation/Submersion stuff in BP mode, and clicking the + / - Grade buttons or adding more Metamagic/Echoes than your Grade allows for free would mean it's going to draw the Karma cost out of your BP, but since it's something that would only be done through custom data, I'm thinking it isn't a big deal.

EDIT: There is one important caveat with this: <enabletab>initiation</enabletab> should only appear in your first Quality that characters must take for Initiation. While it will still work if it appears in the others, having it in subsequent ones will mean that if the character decides to remove the Quality in Create Mode, they'll lose access to the Initiation tab entirely until they add another Quality that restores it. This will have no effect (as in the flag that gets changed is completely ignored) on characters in Career Mode or building with Karma since those tabs are always available to MAG/RES users.

ShadowWalker

Jul 7 2011, 01:41 PM

QUOTE (StevenAngier @ Jul 7 2011, 07:36 AM)

It seems more like only qualities that are designated as "metagenetic" count against the "weird" cost modification the Surge qualities apply in chummer. That's why I suggested this second window exclusive for metagenetic qualities. As it is with Initiation or Qualities which need more information like mentor spirit or incompetence.

page 73 of RC

QUOTE

This quality counts towards the character’s limit of Positive qualities (p. 77, SR4), but unlocks a number of additional Build Points to be used exclusively to select Positive and Negative Metagenic qualities (see Metagenetic Qualities, p. 110).

So yes, I would also suggest having a tab or some method to allow for filtering so you only see the Metagenic Qualities listed. This would make it a lot easier to choose the Metagenic Qualities you need to.
It would also be better to separate the additional BP out from other qualities, and shown as Changeling, or Metagenic Qualities required. Or some like that.

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 01:45 PM

QUOTE (whatevs @ Jul 7 2011, 04:04 AM)

I notice that you have the contacts from 'Runner's Companion' and 'Adventures and Contacts'. How about the contacts from SR4a(289)?

I made the first one (bartender) and exported to .xml. Lemme know if this is a format you can work with for your next update and I'll see if I have time to make more.

Not quite - this was done using the Export to XML from the Print window I see. This is done so you can see what the print XML looks like so you know the structure when you want to create a custom XSLT character sheet and is very different from the actual character save file.

It's the .chum save files that I would need so they can be bundled up and put out into the wild.

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 7 2011, 02:59 AM)

Came across a glitch when trying to make a cyber martial artist. In trying to add the advantage "Reduce an opponent's 'friends in melee' bonus by 1", I get a message saying "You must select a Martial Art to add an Advantage to." It does not appear to matter which martial art this advantage shows up under, the rating of the martial art, or what other advantages have been chosen (if any).

Argh! It's the single quote/apostrophe in the name that's screwing it up. I'll have this fixed up for tonight's update.

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Jul 7 2011, 08:41 AM)

So yes, I would also suggest having a tab or some method to allow for filtering so you only see the Metagenic Qualities listed. This would make it a lot easier to choose the Metagenic Qualities you need to.
It would also be better to separate the additional BP out from other qualities, and shown as Changeling, or Metagenic Qualities required. Or some like that.

Filtering it so you can choose to see only Metagenetic Qualities is easy enough and will be in the next update. Show how many Free Quality BP remain on their own probably isn't going to happen. There are a couple of reasons. The Free Positive Quality BP and Free Negative Quality BP Improvements need to be generic because I'm sure at some point, there's going to be some other wacky Quality that adds X Free Quality BP for some other reason (either from a book, or someone make their own Qualities). I'm trying to avoid tying things to eachother through code to allow for greater flexibility, both on my side, and for people who want to enter custom data. There's no real way to determine which Qualities should consume the "free" BP, which ones shouldn't, and when a Quality eats up all of the "free" BP and must draw more from the Quality BP pool. This is why I went with just applying "free BP" modifiers to the Quality pools themselves. It's also possible that GMs may choose to allow more than just Metagenetic Qualities to count against those Free Quality BP.

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 6 2011, 08:58 PM)

Ah, well, that's easy. Thank you. I do have a pair of problems, however. When I use the ability in the BP build option, it doesn't actually open the Initiation tab or add to the level of Initiation. I'm guessing that second half will fixed in the update, but not being able to add any metamagics via the Initiation tab in BP mode is seriously hindering creating a prime runner. I've tried it using the "Ignore Character Creation Rules" option as well, still no tab.

Completely forgot to mention this last night - don't add these Qualities to any of your characters yet. They won't work properly until tonight's update, and Chummer doesn't retroactively apply bonuses from Qualities. It only applies them at they time they are added. Once tonight's update is available, you can add the Qualities to the characters and should be good to go.

ShadowWalker

Jul 7 2011, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 11:09 AM)

Filtering it so you can choose to see only Metagenetic Qualities is easy enough and will be in the next update. Show how many Free Quality BP remain on their own probably isn't going to happen. There are a couple of reasons. The Free Positive Quality BP and Free Negative Quality BP Improvements need to be generic because I'm sure at some point, there's going to be some other wacky Quality that adds X Free Quality BP for some other reason (either from a book, or someone make their own Qualities). I'm trying to avoid tying things to eachother through code to allow for greater flexibility, both on my side, and for people who want to enter custom data. There's no real way to determine which Qualities should consume the "free" BP, which ones shouldn't, and when a Quality eats up all of the "free" BP and must draw more from the Quality BP pool. This is why I went with just applying "free BP" modifiers to the Quality pools themselves. It's also possible that GMs may choose to allow more than just Metagenetic Qualities to count against those Free Quality BP.

You put put something in the xml to denote a quality gives special BP
<SpecialBP Name="Metagenic" PositiveAmount="15" NegativeAmount="5">
<SpecialBP Name="My Special BP" PositiveAmount="20" NegativeAmount="10">

Then in a quality you could have an optional that has
<UsesSpecialBP Name="Metagenic">

Which would basically mean that what is in the cost uses BP from that special pool. Also means it can only be bought with points from that pool.

Doing it this way would allow for people to create their own Special Quality Pools that act like Metagenic Qualities but are completely separate from all other.

No need to make special code for Metagenic Qualities, when you can make it generic and allow for additions in the future.

Ignore rules would ignore all of this and let you do whatever you want. Could also put something in the options on how to deal with these types of things.

ShadowWalker

Jul 7 2011, 06:17 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 11:52 AM)

Completely forgot to mention this last night - don't add these Qualities to any of your characters yet. They won't work properly until tonight's update, and Chummer doesn't retroactively apply bonuses from Qualities. It only applies them at they time they are added. Once tonight's update is available, you can add the Qualities to the characters and should be good to go.

Although if there are characters in build mode already created you could open the character, delete the quality and then add it back.

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 09:13 PM

Build 142

added support for <uncouth /> to Improvement Manager which impacts the cost of Social Active Skills
added support for <initiation /> to Improvement Manager which adjusts a character's Initiation Grade
added support for <submersion /> to Improvement Manager which adjusts a character's Submersion Grade
list of Qualities in the Select a Quality window is now sorted alphabetically
Fading Resistance total is now correctly updated when modifying an Attribute in Career Mode
Skillsofts now affect Active Skills and Knowledge Skills (for Knowsoft/Linguasoft, you must create a Knowledge Skill with the same value you chose for the Skillsoft, such as "Spanish")
Uncouth now properly affects the cost of Social Active Skills and locks Skill Groups that are made up of Social Active Skills
double-clicking on a Critter Power in the Select Critter Power window now accepts the selected Critter Power as though the OK button was clicked
list of Critter Powers that the character has is now sorted in alphabetical order
Critters can now raise their Skill Rating to their standard maximum Rating rather than just the starting Rating
added support for convering Mundane Critters into Mutant Critters (Special menu > Convert to Mutant Critter)
added support for convering Mutant Critters into Toxic Critters (Special menu > Convert to Toxic Critter)
added an option for a flat number of free Contact BP (disabled by default)
renamed Online Help in the Help menu to Chummer Wiki
added a checkbox to the Select a Quality window to show only Metagenetic Qualities (only appears when the character can select Metagenetic Qualities)

Oustanding Items

Secret thing that may or may not work but I'm trying anyways!
Multiple Clips and Different Ammo
Technomancer Complex Form Skills
A.I. Inherent Programs
Cheat Sheets?
Multiple Capacity Items

Arkiya

Jul 7 2011, 10:33 PM

I just wanted to say - thank you so much for making such an amazing tool! It makes keeping track of everything a breeze.

One tiny typo I noticed - under create critter, under mundane critters - it should be 'cactus cat' (currently says cacuts cat).

I'd love to see support for pets in the future (cost to purchase, training, monthly upkeep)! Thank you for your incredible work!

Nebular

Jul 7 2011, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (Arkiya @ Jul 7 2011, 05:33 PM)

One tiny typo I noticed - under create critter, under mundane critters - it should be 'cactus cat' (currently says cacuts cat).

Corrected!

SpellBinder

Jul 7 2011, 11:17 PM

Something that's been sitting in my mind for a while regarding the free points for knowledge skills in the karma build, and I do appreciate that house rule being present, but was thinking if there could be a change in how it calculates not only the free points but also the spent points once you've run out of the free points.

Currently it calculates INT + LOG * 3 for either system, with any excess costing 2 karma per rank of a knowledge skill. I was wondering if it could be changed to INT * LOG * 6 for the karma build for free knowledge skills, with knowledge skills costing the normal karma per rating?

Wizard_Thoarin

Jul 8 2011, 12:31 AM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 08:52 AM)

Completely forgot to mention this last night - don't add these Qualities to any of your characters yet. They won't work properly until tonight's update, and Chummer doesn't retroactively apply bonuses from Qualities. It only applies them at they time they are added. Once tonight's update is available, you can add the Qualities to the characters and should be good to go.

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be best to redesign the character save file sooner rather then later so that the character is rebuilt on load using updated information from the XML files in Chummer? It seems to me, the only things the character save file really needs in it is the name and if applicable value(s) of a stat/skill/spell/quality etc.. Then whenever Chummer opens up a character file it looks up in the XML files any other applicable data. Things like cyberware, weapons, armor, etc. would be updated automatically on the character sheet whenever you start up Chummer and load the character.

The only exception I could see would be if an XML item was misspelled and then corrected in the XML files. But then that item could probably be deleted and reapplied using the corrected spelling XML item or else have a separate but temporary XML list that tells Chummer to replace a misspelled item with the correctly spelled item in the save file upon re-saving the character. You could either update the Corrections XML file once every 30/60/90 or over whatever time period you like before removing corrections. Heck with your XML file manager, you could just throw up Correction_<insert date>.xml files out there and leave them as optional downloads for historical updates. That way someone who took a break for 6 months or a year from Shadowrun could come back, update Chummer download the correction files from your website then update all their characters fairly quickly to the new information and not have to worry about typos over the long run.

Hope this sparks some thought and consideration.

whatevs

Jul 8 2011, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 01:45 PM)

It's the .chum save files that I would need so they can be bundled up and put out into the wild.

Born Free! As free as the wind blows... <tear in eye> I'll send 'em by email.

ShadowWalker

Jul 8 2011, 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Wizard_Thoarin @ Jul 7 2011, 08:31 PM)

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be best to redesign the character save file sooner rather then later so that the character is rebuilt on load using updated information from the XML files in Chummer? It seems to me, the only things the character save file really needs in it is the name and if applicable value(s) of a stat/skill/spell/quality etc.. Then whenever Chummer opens up a character file it looks up in the XML files any other applicable data. Things like cyberware, weapons, armor, etc. would be updated automatically on the character sheet whenever you start up Chummer and load the character.

The only exception I could see would be if an XML item was misspelled and then corrected in the XML files. But then that item could probably be deleted and reapplied using the corrected spelling XML item or else have a separate but temporary XML list that tells Chummer to replace a misspelled item with the correctly spelled item in the save file upon re-saving the character. You could either update the Corrections XML file once every 30/60/90 or over whatever time period you like before removing corrections. Heck with your XML file manager, you could just throw up Correction_<insert date>.xml files out there and leave them as optional downloads for historical updates. That way someone who took a break for 6 months or a year from Shadowrun could come back, update Chummer download the correction files from your website then update all their characters fairly quickly to the new information and not have to worry about typos over the long run.

Hope this sparks some thought and consideration.

Even misspellings should not cause problems because you use an ID that does not change from one iteration to the next. So the character file just contains pointers to items in the data files and everything is generated on the fly when the character is loaded.

Nebular

Jul 8 2011, 02:37 AM

The save files are going to stay the way they are for now. Part of the goal with the save files was to make them as isolated as possible so that if you copy the save to your laptop but forget to copy over a custom data file that contains an item your save uses, you should still be able to use your character and access that item's information since the save has all of the information it needs to keep going.

Nebular

Jul 8 2011, 02:39 AM

QUOTE (whatevs @ Jul 7 2011, 07:41 PM)

Born Free! As free as the wind blows... <tear in eye> I'll send 'em by email.

whatevs has been kind enough to provide the save files for the SR4 Contacts, complete with full-colour mugshots, so I've rolled them into the NPC Saves file. Enjoy!

Fyndhal

Jul 8 2011, 01:40 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 04:13 PM)

[*]Secret thing that may or may not work but I'm trying anyways!
[/list]

Ooo...now I'm curious!

Wizard_Thoarin

Jul 8 2011, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 07:37 PM)

The save files are going to stay the way they are for now. Part of the goal with the save files was to make them as isolated as possible so that if you copy the save to your laptop but forget to copy over a custom data file that contains an item your save uses, you should still be able to use your character and access that item's information since the save has all of the information it needs to keep going.

I can live with that design philosophy, just thought it would save some headaches when people end up having to scrap and rebuild characters from the start because of a change. Although I'm hoping that having to scrap and rebuild is becoming less and less of an issue as with each update.

You could always consider putting in a second save file method and let people pick which save file they would prefer... chum or chumm (maybe chum2)... one would be chum (rebuild) and one would be chum (mobile)... Just a thought for consideration.

Nebular

Jul 8 2011, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (Wizard_Thoarin @ Jul 8 2011, 12:57 PM)

I can live with that design philosophy, just thought it would save some headaches when people end up having to scrap and rebuild characters from the start because of a change. Although I'm hoping that having to scrap and rebuild is becoming less and less of an issue as with each update.

You could always consider putting in a second save file method and let people pick which save file they would prefer... chum or chumm (maybe chum2)... one would be chum (rebuild) and one would be chum (mobile)... Just a thought for consideration.

I've been trying to make sure that nothing I do requires a character to be completely rebuilt. Now that Qualities are actual objects in the application, there shouldn't be any more colossal changes to the save file structure. Hopeful worst-case scenario now is having to remove a Power or Quality and re-add it.

There have been a ton of additions to the actual contents of them like Critter Powers and new properties to things like Skills, Gear, Vehicles, and 'Ware that didn't need the characters to even make a change, and I'm trying to keep it that way.

Nebular

Jul 8 2011, 07:30 PM

QUOTE (Fyndhal @ Jul 8 2011, 08:40 AM)

Ooo...now I'm curious!

Turns out that this will work, and I've solved the last of the roadblocks I ran into, so it looks like this is a go! This will probably be of more use to GMs, but I'm sure players will find a use for it as well. I know what I'm working on this weekend now.

SpellBinder

Jul 8 2011, 11:11 PM

Found a calculation glitch when it comes to essence & bioware. Was transitioning a character to Chummer, one who has the Sensitive System negative quality and some bioware & genetic infusions (specifically Tailored Pheromones, Genetic Optimization, and Print Removal), and found that the bioware essence cost was being doubled when it shouldn't be.

Added: Could the accessories option for non-firearm weapons also be enabled? While I know a lot of them may not be applicable, some things like a concealable holster (while not quite the right name) can still be applicable to some things like knives. If not there, how about having them added to the general gear tab?

Bobby

Jul 9 2011, 12:07 AM

Just noticed a problem with the karma/Nuyen logs in the character sheet printouts (thanks for adding them though!)

In Chummer the dates display and sort correctly (for locale), but in the character sheets have the dates in US format and sort extremely strangely.

CODE

DATE AMOUNT REASON 
6/6/2011 9:10:54 PM -10     Skill Group Electronics 0 -> 1 
6/6/2011 8:52:15 PM 8     Mission Reward - The Red Hand Gang defeated 
6/23/2011 9:52:44 PM 3     Completing the Dawn of Light advert 
5/21/2011 12:10:07 PM -5     Learned Spell Oxygenate Area 
5/14/2011 9:56:30 AM -5     Learned Spell Healthy Glow 

The Dawn of Light is the most recent item but doesn't appear at the top, but is shoved into the middle, and all the dates are US.

SpellBinder

Jul 9 2011, 03:11 AM

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 7 2011, 05:17 PM)

Something that's been sitting in my mind for a while regarding the free points for knowledge skills in the karma build, and I do appreciate that house rule being present, but was thinking if there could be a change in how it calculates not only the free points but also the spent points once you've run out of the free points.

Currently it calculates INT + LOG * 3 for either system, with any excess costing 2 karma per rank of a knowledge skill. I was wondering if it could be changed to INT * LOG * 6 for the karma build for free knowledge skills, with knowledge skills costing the normal karma per rating?

Figured I'd just quote myself instead of editing this post for a correction (for fear the editing would be lost). Would like to amend the free karma for knowledge skills be INT * LOG * 12 as that will be be double the equivalent of what the points would be in the BP system (INT * LOG * 6 if you actually paid 2 points per rating in a knowledge skill like they cost in BP).

Arkiya

Jul 9 2011, 03:53 PM

Small thing I noticed - Infirm isn't blocking out physical skill groups, and physical skills don't seem to cost twice with it.

Thanks!

ggodo

Jul 9 2011, 04:12 PM

I cannot open any of my saved characters, and keep getting this error:

See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

************** Exception Text **************
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
at Chummer.Quality.Load(XmlNode objNode)
at Chummer.Character.Load()
at Chummer.frmMain.LoadCharacter(String strFileName)
at Chummer.frmMain.OpenFile(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.FireEventInteractive(EventArgs e, ToolStripItemEventType met)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.FireEvent(EventArgs e, ToolStripItemEventType met)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.ScrollableControl.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

************** Loaded Assemblies **************
mscorlib
Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.235 (RTMGDR.030319-2300)
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.NET/Framework/v4.0.30319/mscorlib.dll
----------------------------------------
Chummer
Assembly Version: 0.0.0.142
Win32 Version: 0.0.0.142
CodeBase: file:///C:/Users/Captain%20Awsum/Desktop/Chummer/Chummer.exe
----------------------------------------
System.Windows.Forms
Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.235 built by: RTMGDR
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Drawing
Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll
----------------------------------------
System
Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.232 built by: RTMGDR
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Xml
Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
----------------------------------------

************** JIT Debugging **************
To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
application or computer (machine.config) must have the
jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
The application must also be compiled with debugging
enabled.

For example:

<configuration>
<system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
</configuration>

When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
rather than be handled by this dialog box.

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 04:16 PM

QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2011, 11:12 AM)

I cannot open any of my saved characters, and keep getting this error:

Were these characters by chance last saved before June 19th? The error looks as though it would be cause from trying to load Qualities in the old format. I'm just going to put the Quality migration code back in.

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 05:14 PM

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 8 2011, 06:11 PM)

Found a calculation glitch when it comes to essence & bioware. Was transitioning a character to Chummer, one who has the Sensitive System negative quality and some bioware & genetic infusions (specifically Tailored Pheromones, Genetic Optimization, and Print Removal), and found that the bioware essence cost was being doubled when it shouldn't be.

Added: Could the accessories option for non-firearm weapons also be enabled? While I know a lot of them may not be applicable, some things like a concealable holster (while not quite the right name) can still be applicable to some things like knives. If not there, how about having them added to the general gear tab?

Sensitive System will be fixed for the next update. It was affecting all 'Ware instead of just Cyberware.

The holsters will need to be entered as custom Gear data since they're explicitly marked as Firearm Accessories in the book. I think it's fairly safe to assume that any bladed weapon you buy would come with its appropriate holster or scabbard.

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 05:26 PM

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 8 2011, 10:11 PM)

Figured I'd just quote myself instead of editing this post for a correction (for fear the editing would be lost). Would like to amend the free karma for knowledge skills be INT * LOG * 12 as that will be be double the equivalent of what the points would be in the BP system (INT * LOG * 6 if you actually paid 2 points per rating in a knowledge skill like they cost in BP).

If you have the "Free Knowledge Skills Like BP Build" option turned on, Free Knowledge Skills when building with Karma work exactly like they do with BP. (INT + LOG) * 3 is the number you should get in both modes. Each point you put into Knowledge Skills, regardless of mode, eats up one of those points. When you go over that limit, that's when you should see the costing coming out of BP/Karma and whatever its standard rate it. 1 free point is 1 free point regardless of mode.

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 05:32 PM

Build 145

added support for <infirm /> to Improvement Manager which impacts the cost of Physical Active Skills
passing a save file as a command line argument no longer throws an error
Expense Entries are now printed in the correct order and date format for computers that are using a non-US date format
re-added support for converting Qualities in saved in the old format since it seems there ae a number of character still floating around with them
loading a character with the old Quality format immdiately saves the file with the new Quality format
Sensitive System Negative Quality now correctly only affects the Essence cost of Cyberware

ggodo

Jul 9 2011, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 9 2011, 09:16 AM)

Were these characters by chance last saved before June 19th? The error looks as though it would be cause from trying to load Qualities in the old format. I'm just going to put the Quality migration code back in.

Uh, yes, yes they were, that would make a lot of sense actually. Thanks!

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 07:54 PM

Now that I have most of this prototyped and semi-working, I might as well let you in on that little secret item from the last outstanding items list.

I had wanted to setup a character repository since I had started working on Chummer, but wanted to provide it through Chummer rather than through a website (I didn't want to create another site, maintain it, etc.) and felt it would be more at home within Chummer itself. If you're a GM and looking for a quick NPC or a player looking for a Contact, why not see if someone has already made something to suit your needs? Select what type of NPC you're looking for (Contact, Enemy, or Critter at the moment), hit Search, and you're given a list of the saves that other users have submitted. Find the one you want, download it, and open it without leaving Chummer.

Submitting a save to Omae requires that you have a registered account with it (all done through the interface). Passwords are stored in an encoded format in both the database and on your machine if you choose to enable automatic logins. The account is just used to show who upload which character and allowing you to update the save file for a character you had uploaded before (don't want Person X overwriting Person Y's creations!). The hope is to also allow rating and tagging later on. The only information the account has is your username and encoded password. No personal information tracked, etc. I have no interest in that stuff.

I have no idea when this will be ready - this is my first attempt at writing web services which has been an interesting experience so far. The basics of it are all in place and work, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done on it to make it presentable and not use hard-coded information. But to give you a quick idea as to what it might look like, take a peek at the Omae preview screenshot.

And suggestions are always welcome.

Marwynn

Jul 9 2011, 07:58 PM

That is so cool! Well done, sir!

This thing is getting handier by the minute!

(Minor bug note: Gyro-stabilization Accessory doesn't appear for Battle Rifles.)

Bobby

Jul 9 2011, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 9 2011, 06:32 PM)

Expense Entries are now printed in the correct order and date format for computers that are using a non-US date format

Thank you!

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Marwynn @ Jul 9 2011, 02:58 PM)

That is so cool! Well done, sir!

This thing is getting handier by the minute!

(Minor bug note: Gyro-stabilization Accessory doesn't appear for Battle Rifles.)

Just quickly checked this. I see Gyro Stabilization as an available Accessory for all Battle Rifles except for the Ares HVBR from WAR! (page 155), and that weapon doesn't allow underbarrel Accessories. Which Weapon were you noticing this one?

Neko Asakami

Jul 9 2011, 08:13 PM

Holy crap, that is an awesome idea! Love the idea, especially as a lazy GM.

Also, I know complex forms aren't supported yet, but is there some sort of work around you can suggest? My techno is very excited to use Chummer, but is bugging *me* about the lack of support for the complex forms.

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 08:20 PM

QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 9 2011, 03:13 PM)

Also, I know complex forms aren't supported yet, but is there some sort of work around you can suggest? My techno is very excited to use Chummer, but is bugging *me* about the lack of support for the complex forms.

Eh? Complex Forms are supported, as least as far as I know. You can add them on the Sprites and Complex Forms tab, set their Rating, and attach Options to them. Am I missing something? Technomancers still cause me some confusion since I've never played one, and none of my players have either.

SpellBinder

Jul 9 2011, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 9 2011, 11:26 AM)

If you have the "Free Knowledge Skills Like BP Build" option turned on, Free Knowledge Skills when building with Karma work exactly like they do with BP. (INT + LOG) * 3 is the number you should get in both modes. Each point you put into Knowledge Skills, regardless of mode, eats up one of those points. When you go over that limit, that's when you should see the costing coming out of BP/Karma and whatever its standard rate it. 1 free point is 1 free point regardless of mode.

Was just looking for a way to clear a loophole in karma costs at character creation, as I'd expect going from rating 3 to 4 would cost 4 karma if the limit is exceeded, yet it only costs 2 karma per rating no matter what in chummer.

Marwynn

Jul 9 2011, 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 9 2011, 03:11 PM)

Just quickly checked this. I see Gyro Stabilization as an available Accessory for all Battle Rifles except for the Ares HVBR from WAR! (page 155), and that weapon doesn't allow underbarrel Accessories. Which Weapon were you noticing this one?

The AVC-7.62. I just tried it with a fresh BR, and couldn't find the Gyro Stab. Been tinkering with that BR all day.

Hmm, how odd.

I'll do a fresh DL and see.

EDIT:

Okay, it's showing up now. Would another underbarrel accessory have prevented that from showing up?

Nebular

Jul 9 2011, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (Marwynn @ Jul 9 2011, 05:22 PM)

The AVC-7.62. I just tried it with a fresh BR, and couldn't find the Gyro Stab. Been tinkering with that BR all day.

Hmm, how odd.

I'll do a fresh DL and see.

EDIT:

Okay, it's showing up now. Would another underbarrel accessory have prevented that from showing up?

Nope. At one point it enforced one Accessory per slot type, but that was removed quite a while back since you could actually have a number of Scopes for example, and switch them out as needed. I also tested it with a couple of underbarrel Accessories on it, just to make sure that didn't work its way back in.

Neko Asakami

Jul 10 2011, 12:43 AM

QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 7 2011, 03:13 PM)

Build 142

Stuff

Oustanding Items

Secret thing that may or may not work but I'm trying anyways!
Multiple Clips and Different Ammo
Technomancer Complex Form Skills
A.I. Inherent Programs
Cheat Sheets?
Multiple Capacity Items

Sorry, from the last list you posted, I was under the impression that they're not done. A quick look into Chummer and I was able to find them. I'll just need to show her how they're added which is what's confusing her, I bet.

suoq

Jul 10 2011, 02:31 AM

Didn't find a way to add skills, languages. Not sure if I should be editing an XML file or if that's just the way it is.

Noticed that mods on melee weapons don't show. (Was adding Custom Look:level 2 to a Fineblade knife.)

I'd like a way to attach operating systems, tacsofts, empathy software, mapsofts, etc. etc. to the commlink they're meant for. Once you carry your public commlink, your tactical commlink, and a couple disposable commlinks (turned off) it gets ugly.

I'd also like to attach ammo to guns or at least have it in it's own section under ranged weapons with AP, DV, Ballistic/Impact, etc.

Way too much of my gear has line breaks in it from the book/page being too long (SR4 300) breaks into 2 lines on my PC. May be something I'm doing.

Overall, I love it. Thank you.

ShadowWalker

Jul 10 2011, 03:20 AM

QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 9 2011, 10:31 PM)

Didn't find a way to add skills, languages. Not sure if I should be editing an XML file or if that's just the way it is.

Noticed that mods on melee weapons don't show. (Was adding Custom Look:level 2 to a Fineblade knife.)

I'd like a way to attach operating systems, tacsofts, empathy software, mapsofts, etc. etc. to the commlink they're meant for. Once you carry your public commlink, your tactical commlink, and a couple disposable commlinks (turned off) it gets ugly.

I'd also like to attach ammo to guns or at least have it in it's own section under ranged weapons with AP, DV, Ballistic/Impact, etc.

Way too much of my gear has line breaks in it from the book/page being too long (SR4 300) breaks into 2 lines on my PC. May be something I'm doing.

Overall, I love it. Thank you.

To add a language go to the skills tab
Click the Add Skill button in the Knowledge Skills section.
Type in the language name, and change the drop down from Academic to Language.

The Operating System can be changed on a commlink, but right now the only software that can be attached to it is the Matrix Specific Software.
Being able to attach Tacsoft, Sensor Software, and Skillsofts to a commlink would be nice.