@Bastard: Is there a roof exit? or did I just miss that in the descriptions?

From the IC thread yesterday

Check, my bad.

I like what I hear.

Also gives everybody something to do from the meta-view.

@Bastard - How long did the watchers seem to stay confused, and can they be confused again right away?

ntwi - The watchers confusion varied from a couple seconds to a few minutes. When you tried on your own watchers the higher powered ones reported to you after the confusion wore off though. They just reported they became disorientated for a short while, or something along those lines.

galen - where is Jamie jacking in? Is she going to be off site, or inside the building?

That short, ouch... I was expecting it to last for as long as the other spirit sustained the power.

@Kliko Someones going to have to be really fast cracking the maglock into Morningstar's room then. I just can't see a noise pulling both guards out of the hallway for that long.

The only way I can see that working right now would be to have Felix join the group on the roof, enter the stairwell (inside the wards) so he can recast invisibility and summon a hearth spirit to conceal you.

I guess it just comes back to those dang guards in the hallway. If you think you can open the maglock casing, bypass the circuits and put it back together before the guards come back to the hallway and see you, then by all means we can go that route. (Base time for each test is 60 seconds)


I guess Felix still would prefer to go in at night rather than try to sneak in during the day and hide.

I figured you did not want to sustain the spell on the watchers as they go roaming about, as they will run into the ward.

From my understanding, recasting a spell within a ward would also trigger the alarm. I could be incorrect though.

Ah, I see what you were thinking with the spirits. I had presumed (don't know if it had any basis in fact or not) that just like the creators of the ward can pass through it with no problem, that their spirits could as well. Either that or that bumping into the astral barrier was akin to bumping into a wall, and rather different than an attack on the ward. I can see how you got the conclusion you did though. ( There is the reference I was looking for pg 174 SR3 "The creator of a barrier is unaffected by it and can see or pass through it at will. The creator of a barrier can allow other astral forms to see or pass through at will, if desired."

On the other note, spellcasting inside the ward, I had always thought that wards were more analogous to a wall than anything else. The creator of the ward is informed when astral or dual natured things attack/cross the ward, but it doesn't matter which side of the ward you are on, just when you cross the ward. That will make things distinctly more challenging for me if I can't cast spells or summon on the other side of the ward.

Guess you're right. Perhaps its time to invest in a maglock passkey... Kliko could have worked an old tumbler-pin lock with the autopicker.

Your latest sounds pretty good if you ask me.

@Bastard In the plans so far, it's been my understanding that she would be using her dataline tap on a camera. Since my deck currently has no wireless interfaces, I would need to be on site. I thought there was one on the roof.

I cracked the system before from the outside. I just don't know if the security controls are tied into their Matrix host. The benefit of coming in via camera, is that I know I'm in the security system.

Do the security plans given to us by Mrs. J indicate the security system is closed to the Matrix at large?

Galen

At the moment it looks like Jamie is the only person climbing. Do we have the climbing gear she might need? I've been looking around for it, but haven't been able to find a good list.

Galen

We have some climbing kit with us: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1010053 though perhaps not in Jamie's size.

If you want to do this tomorrow afternoon, you might want to try and get that, or put it off. Jamie didn't bring one for herself.

Galen

Go AWOL for a weekend and look what happens. So a lobby nabbing?

I know collateral damage is an issue but I don't see any way around some damage. Security seems a little too tight for sneaking around. Likewise Morningstar has guards. Felix plans to use magic to confuse, but remember there will be a lot of mages there that have a magic pool and will be less effected by the mana punch. I suggest some good ol fashion flash/concussion grenades with Felix's confusion spell as gravy/back-up.

Additionally, with the information we have interrogating Morningstar for more information shouldn't be too bad. The priority should be snatch and grab.

Scenario three:
Kliko's job is to pop a couple flash/concussion grenades in the lobby area while Morningstar is there. Bubba and Ludi can be in the kitchen waiting for the boom! When the boom hits that is the signal for Bubba and Ludi (could be posing as a person down on her luck and needing a warm meal -lost it all in gambling etc) to enter the lobby. Bubba will grab Morningstar's limp body and Ludi will pop smoke. Once the target is secured by Bubba, Felix can invis Morningstar and potentially Bubba and/or Ludi. Corsair roles up to the front entrance in the getaway vehicle as soon as the boom goes off. Everyone loads up and we drive to a vehicle exchange point then to the safe house.

We are talking from the time the first grenade goes off a less than 60 second extraction.
Once back at the safehouse we can interrogate Morningstar for more information based on the knowledge we already have thanks to Jamie.

My 2 cents.

From my understanding a ward encompassed everything within in it. The sourcebooks are not very clear on a lot of ward information, but if you find something that states otherwise, let me know.

As for the watchers, if they crossed the ward with a spell sustained on them, they would set it off. The watcher can go through, the the ward would alert on the spell.

A couple of notes/my thoughts on things (feel free to tell me that I'm smoking crack if you want)

Bumping into vs Attacking a ward: I have always pictured most wards as an astral version of a stone wall around something with a few sensors built into the wall. Not enough to tell if someone simply walked into or bumped into the wall, but enough to let you know as soon as someone pulled out an astral jackhammer, sledgehammer or explosives to break through the ward. Because of this image I have/had there are a few implications/preconceptions that I had.

1. Once you're inside the ward, you are good to go until it comes time to leave.
2. A spell or spirit/critter power on a mundane person is simple brushed aside (maybe/maybe not noticed by the ward) as there is no magical nature for the spell to adhere to.
3. A mundane person with an active foci feels a physical force stopping him. If they were sprinting or in an elevator (pg 83 MitS) when they went through the ward then "Regardless of the outcome the creator of the barrier is aware that something passed through or attempted to pass through it." Because of the location of this statement, I did not connect it to all brushing against or bumping into of the ward, but rather "Pressing through a barrier."

The exceptions this are the other varieties of wards listed on pg 89 of MitS. The alarm ward is closer to a series of poles with sensor packages mounted atop them. It won't stop travel but it will set off the alarm. The polarized ward turns the wall into one way armored glass and the masking ward is almost an illusion on the astral.

The alarm ward is also my example of why wards only monitor the ward line and not the interior of the ward. "An alarm ward alerts its creator when an unauthorized astral entity crosses it's boundaries. Initiates may synchronize their auras to fool...." (MitS pg 89) [emphasis mine] Polarized wards and Masking wards also do not effect someone once they are inside the perimeter of the ward line.


@SneakyJoe / Bubba

I was planning on using the Spirit Power of confusion which is far more potent than the spell. According to RAW (AFAIK) it is not resisted and gives a flat +Force to all your TN's in addition to the Willpower(Force) test to be able to make a decision.

@Sneaky: My intention is a little more subtle.

See the bottom of the staircase. There usually is some slack space there where a spirit has a decent chance of concealing Ludi and Kliko without them bumping into people passing by.

Also see that the elevator has two entries on the bottom floor.

After a sermon Morningstar, perhaps attended by some people, will eventually get back to his/their quarters.

This is a step-by-step:

1- Jamie gets on the roof and hacks into camera-system
2- Jamie decks into the elevator system (if there is a connection)
3- Bubba lets Kliko and Ludi (concealed by spirit) in at the storage area by taking a smoke.
4- Kliko and Ludi hide down the staircase, Bubba resumes duties.
5- Bubba attends sermon
6- Bubba signals when sermon is over (one radio click)
7- Bubba follows Morningstar into the lounge and lobby (he needs to get to the kitchen)
8- Bubba signals when Morningstar returns to his quarters a)via elevator, two radio clicks, via staircase, three radio clicks

Now here things digress:

Elevator:
9- Elevator opens, Morningstar gets in
10- Jamie closes the elevator door while:
11- Bubba fakes an epileptic attack and crashes to the ground (distraction), but with his drooling he shouldn't have any problem making a good appearance.
12- The other elevator door opens, Ludi taps Morningstar twice with the dart pistol
13- Kliko catches Morningstar and hauls him through the storage area to their car ready back first at the loading ramp
14- Jamie closes elevator door
15- Ludi covers Kliko's exit
16- Kliko puts Morningstar in the back of the truck (Corsair is on overwatch for bystanders)
17- Ludi closes the storage area door and closes the loading gate
18- Ludi gets in and they drive off
19- The rest gets the frag out with Corsairs SUV.

Staircase:
9- Bubba fakes an epileptic attack and crashes to the ground (distraction), but with his drooling he shouldn't have any problem making a good appearance.
10- Ludi taps Morningstar twice with the dart pistol
11- Kliko catches Morningstar and hauls him through the storage area to their car ready back first at the loading ramp
12- Ludi covers Kliko's exit
13- Kliko puts Morningstar in the bakc of the truck (Corsair is on overwatch for bystanders)
14- Ludi closes the storage area door and closes the loading gate
15- Ludi gets in and they drive off
16- The rest gets the frag out with Corsairs SUV.

Only if worst comes to worst we have to shoot our way out or drop a smoke+gas grenade in the staircase to cover our exit.

How does that sound for a plan?

My edits to Kliko's plan

0- Felix uses spirits to confuse watchers while Jamie is levitated/invisible into place and Kliko and Ludi enter
1- Jamie gets on the roof and hacks into camera-system
2- Bubba lets Kliko and Ludi (invisible) in at the storage area by taking a smoke.
3- Jamie decks into the elevator system (if there is a connection)
4- Kliko and Ludi hide down the staircase, Bubba resumes duties.

4.A - Felix walks into the lounge or chapel to meditate (summon Hearth spirit to conceal Kliko and Ludi)

5- Bubba attends sermon
6- Bubba signals when sermon is over (one radio click)
7- Bubba follows Morningstar into the lounge and lobby (he needs to get to the kitchen)
8- Bubba signals when Morningstar returns to his quarters a)via elevator, two radio clicks, via staircase, three radio clicks

Now here things digress:

Elevator:
9- Elevator opens, Morningstar gets in
10- Jamie closes the elevator door while:
11- Bubba fakes an epileptic attack and crashes to the ground (distraction), but with his drooling he shouldn't have any problem making a good appearance.
12- The other elevator door opens, Ludi taps Morningstar twice with the dart pistol
13- Kliko catches Morningstar and hauls him through the storage area to their car ready back first at the loading ramp
14- Jamie closes elevator door
15- Ludi covers Kliko's exit
16- Kliko puts Morningstar in the back of the truck (Corsair is on overwatch for bystanders)
17- Ludi closes the storage area door and closes the loading gate
18- Ludi gets in and they drive off
19- The rest gets the frag out with Corsairs SUV.

Staircase:
9- Bubba fakes an epileptic attack and crashes to the ground (distraction), but with his drooling he shouldn't have any problem making a good appearance.
10- Ludi taps Morningstar twice with the dart pistol
11- Kliko catches Morningstar and hauls him through the storage area to their car ready back first at the loading ramp
12- Ludi covers Kliko's exit
13- Kliko puts Morningstar in the back of the truck (Corsair is on overwatch for bystanders)
14- Ludi closes the storage area door and closes the loading gate
15- Ludi gets in and they drive off
16- The rest gets the frag out with Corsairs SUV.

City and Air spirits to use movement, concealment and/or confusion to aid in a clear exit.

Only if worst comes to worst we have to shoot our way out or drop a smoke+gas grenade in the staircase to cover our exit.

How does that sound for a plan?

Does Bubba simply recover and walk out the front later?
How does the getaway SUV get to the loading dock? Did Bubba arrive in it and park it in that parking lot?

Kliko and Ludi drove it there.

Bubba simply recovers and walks out the front.

Now how many watcher spirits are floating around the temple? Don’t these act as security also? Won’t the watchers report what is going on as Kliko and Ludi move through the building. Also will Jamie be out of sight from the watchers? Confusion only seems to last a few minutes and how well does conceal work against the watchers? the infiltration technique seems like too many things have to go right in order for it to work.

@Kliko I like what you have written, but I prefer a simpler plan even if it is quick and dirty.


Bubba will be game for whatever.

@SneakyJoe

I believe there are 3 watchers floating around the outside of the temple. Watcher spirits are rather dumb and literal minded, and as such, (AFAIK) these ones only report people with active spells approaching the temple and do not guard the temple interior.

Because of the phrasing of their orders, I do not expect them to pay any attention to someone on the roof without any spells on, or people inside the building that they cannot see. (Walls block LOS). They only need to be confused while Kliko and Ludi get near and enter the building and while I levitate the invisible Jamie onto the roof. As soon as Jamie is out of the camera's sight I can drop those spells, and once Kliko and [b]Ludi[b] are inside, there is nothing for them to see/report.

It is slightly more complicated, but if it goes smoothly there is very little or no evidence we were there.

I will have to do some more research, probably post a question on dumpshock, but I understand crossing the boundaries encompasses everything within. I have always thought this as compared to sports. A touchdown is when the ball touches the goal line but also counts if thrown and caught within the end zone. A baseball is foul when it crosses the line, and a homerun when it crosses the line, no matter how far it travels in that zone, etc. Again, I could be wrong, but I have not seen anywhere that it is stated either way within the core rules or MitS.

I have always thought this to be the case as what would be the point of having security that only protected the boarder and not the actual property. That is like setting up your army to only protect your boarder, but nothing within the country if enemies were able to sneak by or breach your defenses.

*****

As to the plan. I don't want to give anything away, and I have not edited anything on my end and I see a major problem or two.

One of them is the misunderstanding of the map, and this is one of the main reasons I wanted you guys to have a written plan. I do not want your plan to fail due to misinterpretations of the information I have given.

There are two doors to a small lobby that has direct access to the stairs (no actual doors to the stairs) and to the elevator. One of the doors to this lobby is from the front hallway, the other is from the storage/warehouse area.

Also, don't forget there is a cyclone fence with slats surrounding the back of the building where the storage/warehouse and docks are.

Before finalizing your plan I would look over the recon information I have posted to make sure you are not missing anything important, or misinterpreting anything else. If you are unsure, ask for me to clarify.

@Bastard: Yup, I planned to do the nab in this small lobby. The map lists the elevator doors in another short hallway. Pls confirm if so or that the eklvator and stairs end in the same lobby. Those doors would provide some nice cover. Pls also confirm if there are windows in these doors?

I'm sure we find a way to get one of the SUV's at the loading dock. Is there like a gate to the back of the temple or can we drive all around. I suppose they take deliveries for the kitchen here as well.

@Kliko In the gear list, I saw a descent kit. It did not explicitly include rope. Do we have rope? Is it catalyst line? Do we have the catalyst stick?

@Bastard Since I have a little time before we are in the field, can I check to be sure the descent kit will fit me?

Galen

It includes 100m rope, but not the stealth-line or stick. At this length you can afford to make a knot untying the rope with a swift pull from the bottom floor. Heck, Corsairs roto-drone (with mechanical arms) can even grab Jamie and put her on/off that roof.

Sorry Kliko, you are correct. I plan on trying to send out an updated/larger map.

On the bottom floor the elevator has two entrances. One in the hallway, one in the storage area. Every other floor opens up on the hallway side only.

The small lobby is only for the stairs, which also has a door on the first floor from both the hallway and the storage area.


The fence in the back surrounds the whole back side of the building. However there is a rolling gate, which is locked with heavy pad locks, on both sides, but not the backside.

@Bastard: Whats behind the fence at the back? Is there a public accesible road there?

Does the Kliko's SUV fit underneath the Chainlink fences frame? How high is the fence? Any razorwire or just plain frame?

This link is a loose representation. The building on the corner of 58th and Eudora with the three trees will represent the Temple, across from United Rentals. The front door is on the Eudora side with the trees, the side door is on the North side with the parking lot.

The Temple is a bit larger I believe. The parking lot is smaller in game. The red brick roof will represent the fenced area, which is larger in game.

The back of the fence is against another lot. An alley runs along the south side to access a gate on the south side of the back side (east side of Temple), which also runs to a similar gate at the property behind the temple. There is a north side gate that has access to E 58th.

Everything south of that alley way on the map is empty in the image, but in game that is filled with newer industrial buildings.

@Bastard: Where is the roller gate, at 58th Avenue? If so, what type of lock?

Presume chainlink fence runs all the way along the east perimeter of the parking lot to 58th Avenue?

Heavy padlock, tumbler/key, with a heavy chain. One in the alley on the south side, one into a short driveway to East 58th on the north side.


The parking lot and driveway/entry to the north gate are only deep enough to hold one large car or truck.

Out the back door and hop the fence to the car waiting in the alley. Doesn't seem to add to much change to the run.

With an unconscious body?

Galen

Never chucked a body across a fence before? If it's only two meters or so Kliko should be able to manage. Just a bit of a flip from over the shoulder to over the fence. A little drop ain't gonna kill anyone

I think Kliko brought a wire cutter

Its easy to prep in advance...

Vehicle is in the alley and the fence pre cut?
Or does Corsair drive through the precut fence and pull up to the loading dock on command?

Otherwise are we all comfortable with the plan?

Kliko?
Galen?
SneakyJoe?
Mister Juan?

I m cool. Might be nice to have the plan summed up in one single post step by step and role by role.

The current plan V3.7.25.B

1- Bubba goes on a smoke break behind the storage area

- Felix uses spirits to confuse watchers

- Jamie is levitated/invisible into place on the roof
- Kliko and Ludi (invisible) follow Bubba into storage area

2- Bubba resumes duties
3- Jamie hacks into camera-system
4- Jamie decks into the elevator system (if there is a connection)
5- Kliko and Ludi hide near the elevator and stair doors in the storage room
6 - Felix walks into the lounge or chapel to meditate (summon Hearth spirit to conceal Kliko and Ludi, and to confuse those attacking them)
7- Bubba attends sermon
8- Bubba signals when sermon is over (one radio click)
9- Bubba follows Morningstar into the lounge and lobby (he needs to get to the kitchen)
10- Bubba signals when Morningstar returns to his quarters a)via elevator, two radio clicks, via staircase, three radio clicks

-Jamie starts loop of video cameras for stairwell/elevator, storage area, back parking lot

Now here things digress:

Elevator:
11- Elevator opens, Morningstar gets in
12- Jamie closes the elevator door while:
13- Bubba fakes an epileptic attack and crashes to the ground (distraction), but with his drooling he shouldn't have any problem making a good appearance.
14- The other elevator door opens, Ludi taps Morningstar twice with the dart pistol
15- Kliko catches Morningstar and hauls him through the storage area, across the back parking lot to the hole cut in the fence to the alley
16- Jamie closes elevator door
17- Ludi covers Kliko's exit, closing doors behind them

-Jamie locks doors if possible from security system

18- Kliko puts Morningstar in the back of the truck (Corsair is on overwatch for bystanders)
19- Ludi gets in and they drive off
20- The rest gets the frag out with Corsairs SUV.


Staircase:
11- Bubba fakes an epileptic attack and crashes to the ground (distraction), but with his drooling he shouldn't have any problem making a good appearance.
12- Kliko opens door to stairwell

-Ludi taps Morningstar twice with the dart pistol
-Jamie locks door from stairwell to main lobby

13- Kliko catches Morningstar and hauls him through the storage area, across the back parking lot to the hole cut in the fence to the alley
14- Ludi covers Kliko's exit, closing doors behind them

-Jamie locks doors if possible from security system

15- Kliko puts Morningstar in the back of the truck (Corsair is on overwatch for bystanders)
16- Ludi gets in and they drive off
17- The rest gets the frag out with Corsairs SUV.

City and Air spirits to use movement, concealment and/or confusion to aid in a clear exit.

Only if worst comes to worst we have to shoot our way out or drop a smoke+gas grenade in the staircase, storage room or parking lot to cover our exit.


Exfil plan for others:
-Felix should never have to leave the other SUV parked nearby
-Spirits get confused, destroyed or ignored depending on alarms and such
-Jamie (once again invisible) gets levitated off building and back to SUV.

Alternate: Jamie leaves looping external video cameras and rappels off the side of the Temple

-Jamie and Felix drive up to the front of the temple and pick up Bubba as he walks out the door.

Alternate: Felix drives up and picks up both Jamie and Bubba
Tertiary: Bubba calls a cab to take him to the "hospital" and gets picked up elsewhere

What will we do about the two armed guards that will also be in the elevator with Mormingstar? They will need to be dealt with as well. I gurantee he wont be alone.

the Dart pistol is semi-automatic, Ludi can shoot 2 people if need be.

In case there are >2 people in the elevator, Kliko can punch one in the face (I love me brass knuckles).

Also we have surprise

Hmmm... looks to me like there is going to be a shoot out!

Bugger, Ludmilla, get me some more of those gel-rounds for my heavy pistol.

The plan looks great to me. If you both go in with dart pistols, it should be very quiet. Even silenced, the heavy pistols are louder then the dart guns. Other guards will only be on the other side of the elevator.

Galen

Ok... hope surprise will be enough for Kliko and Ludi to take on a mage and at least two meat shields.

Frankly I'm more concerned with the *thuds* from the knocked down bodies than the noise from Kliko's silenced Browning.

Dart pistols and darts are fraggin expensive. Besides, it looks like a small elevator

That's why my plan had Kliko and Ludi remaining invisible, a spirit concealing them with standing orders to confuse those who attack them, and 12 dice of spell defense to keep the shaman off of them. (I am operating on the basis that I have only seen the watcher spirits outside, and not inside while on my visits.)

That sounds like a plan to me.

Besides, it would be wimpy to deviate now on GM suggestion.

I think we should roll with it and see what happens.

I think my descriptions of a certain something (or somethings) was overlooked, but I think you'll be able to be worked around (which I gave a hint to indirectly) with only minor to moderate setbacks, if it even comes up.

Since I believe it was just overlooked, and not a misinterpretation, I don't want to ruin the surprise by drawing your attention to it! Now I bet you are curious, and it could be nothing.

Other than that the plan seems sound.

Spirits I can see, but don't they have to be in line of sight to provide spell defense? I thought Felix would be outside and not able to see into the storeroom they occupy. I know you could do astral overwatch as a projecting mage, but that's not the same as spell defense.

If I recall correctly, you can cast a spell and maintain it after your target goes out of LoS.

Galen

Who needs spell defense when you have high willpower?

Besides, we'll geek the mage first...

Dont forget, there is no ward on the first floor.